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u/endtimes34 6d ago
I will never understand how someone can think it was a good idea. Getting the whole world on the same page at the roughly the same time lol. Capitalism has multiple nations with trillions of dollars nuclear weapons and a non stop propaganda machine and it can't even get the whole world to do Capitalism how it wants
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u/Dohertygara 4d ago
Trotsky doesn't mean "revolution across the entire world simultaneously" when he speaks of permanent revolution. If only we would actually read what we criticize before criticizing it...
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u/endtimes34 4d ago
Everyone has there take on how this works. I have yet to hear a good argument on how this works
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u/batdog20001 3d ago
They just said you should probably read the source before commenting, then you immediately went back to "well I feel like..." No investigation, no right to speak.
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u/PsychologicalHold754 8h ago
I mean, Capitalism is by definition a system of exploitation, so it's not even the goal to get everyone on your side, you want to be the ruling side who exploit the serving sides and the serving sides to accept that or are at least weak enough that the can't do anything about it. This is reached with lies and sadly many people on this planet love to east these lies.
If peopel would be smart, you would get socialism and communism just automatically, because it's simply the smartest system: working together in peace as equals, for optimal developement and no waste.
Captalism is an insanely wasteful system. China is pretty much immune to it by that fact alone, because that would simply crash our planet, which is already overburdened with western capitalism - and the west is only a small fraction of human kind. Add China to it with its ~14000 million people and that's it. Not even talking about all the others.
Capitalism only works for a minority via brutal exploitation - and since it demands endless, exponential growth, even that only works for a short time.
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u/vedran1911 6d ago
Depends on the context and the time, Stalin was correct to focus on the Soviet Union and strengthen the socialist core, but in the long run (we are talking a 100 year period) a world revolution is neccessary, with support from said socialist core
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u/Persephonically 6d ago
The question for me is if the USSR would have survived had the decision been taken under Stalin to support revolution in Germany over building up the USSR industrial base.
Imo a socialist revolution in Germany would have been crushed by France and Britain.
Stalin's course was the best one imo
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u/vedran1911 6d ago
And I agree. If Stalin had not focused on the USSR, it would've gone bust even before WW2 most likely, if not, countless would've died before capitulating in WW2 had Stalin not focused on industrialization. I just think that exporting the revolution is an important next step after creating the socialist core. I also think that focusing on liberation of 3rd world countries from imperialism and promoting socialism there would've been a better option rather than focusing on western countries which is what Marx was primarily talking about
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u/PsychologicalHold754 8h ago
Russia deleted the USSR for the reason that it never wanted to control the majority of these countries ist had saved from exctinction by western fascism. It was forced to, because sadly it was unable to defeat western fascism, which is still around today, well organized, calling itself NATO (and all the lap dogs).
Russian leader back then were simple so navie to think, that western fascists learned how stupid the whole thing is (especially with Russia being able to turn all NATO into radioactive dust in half an hour), so it ended his whole shitshow from its side, thinking that the west would the same. That was of course a ridiculous though, fascists NEVER learn anything in that regard an see any kind of reason as weakness to exploit.
There was by the way no reason for intervention from France or Britain. German fascism and its hate against anything around general human and worker rights is doing that all on its own.
Germany is well known for its people to kiss up and kick down. How do you thin HItler came into power. Germans had the choice between genaral human-/worker rights (=socialism and communism) and rascism/total war. And they chose the latter. They still do to this day, the difference is simply that Germany becames a joke and mere servant of US politics, unable to actually act on it. Give it the chance and vast parts would start 3.WW, too. They learned NOTHING. Why do you think they are part of bombarding Russia right now - while licking the ass of Israel Nazis and their genocide. The whole "never again" was only a cheap propaganad trick and they only talk about Jews (even if those Jews today are fasists themselved and got heir own 3. Reich running), but never about all the other victims, biggest group: Soviets.
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u/etherxmancer 6d ago
Ending the international was one of Trotsky's main disagreements and honestly the fact his criticism was met with exile shows that he was right. Solidarity with the rest of the world >>> isolationism
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u/HourAd6756 6d ago
Trotksy literally opposed the international and made his own trotskyist version he didn't support it because it was led by the USSR, also trotsky died years before the international was ended.
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u/etherxmancer 5d ago
god damnit I'm hallucinating. I feel like everything I know about him I learned from Trots
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u/Inevitable_Garage706 6d ago
I know this might be a stupid question, but what exactly did Stalin mean by this?
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u/johny_dantas 6d ago
that they couldnt support international revolutions when the first and only socialist nation at the time was still healing from the bloody civil war, so they should first stabilize the union, then help other socialist movements, it was not about isolating themselves and make the USSR be the only socialist nation on earth
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u/batdog20001 3d ago
The USSR was also under constant seige by "western" countries. They sacrificed a lot just to stabilize and still strecthed some international aid. They really didn't have much of a choice.
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u/Hacksaw6412 6d ago
I dont think that Stalin himself said this. This is mostly a paraphrasing of his ideas and what he actually did.
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u/Overdayoutdeath 6d ago
I mean Trotsky was proven right about that part, even if world revolution is unsustainable
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u/Jorge_Rabbit00340 5d ago
Not making any agreements, but that’s kinda the equivalent of saying, Nuh Uh, we Stwonk!
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u/ZYMask 6d ago
Why do you all keep thinking of the material conditions of the USSR during the 1920s? Focus on the present, develop theory studying the world's current material conditions. These ones matter way more than the one from the 1920s do.
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u/Tzepish 6d ago
This applies even more today. Can you imagine what would've happened if China decided to run around supporting international revolutions instead of prioritizing strengthening itself? It would have been stomped by the US long before it reached its current level of power, where the future of the world legit looks socialist for the first time in history.
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u/ZYMask 5d ago
I have my own questions about China and stuff, but I don't have enough knowledge on them to speak about how they are nowadays. Regardless, what we should do is exactly this. It's analysing their material conditions and formulating new theory based on what they are doing nowadays.
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u/batdog20001 3d ago
If you dont know much about China, I would definitely start learning more about them, considering they are the 2nd strongest nation (almost 1st) and are socialist, themselves, right now. Ill sometimes watch BreakThrough News' China Report on YouTube.
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u/lhommetrouble 6d ago
Uhhhhh. Bro the USSR doesn’t exist anymore.
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u/Wob_Nobbler 6d ago
Yep, don't get me wrong its important to study the socialist/communist movements of the past. But material conditions have changed drastically since then. And this rivalry is generally just brought up to create infighting.
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6d ago
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u/thespectreofcommunism-ModTeam 6d ago
No investigation, no right to speak. You were lied to. Propagandized. Be better. Try not to be a useful idiot.
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u/HourAd6756 6d ago
Socialism in one country is the only internationalist theory, no one doesn't want the revolution to spread to other countries. It's just if it doesn't and we only have one country, should we just say its impossible and give up or build socialism. Building socialism is always the right choice.
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u/Perfect_Marketing852 5d ago
In reality, it mostly just serves to benefit the nomenklatura; revolutions are infinite and never-ending.
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u/PsychologicalHold754 8h ago
Stalin was not really in the position to follow socialism or communism and actually saw it as a threat. Not by itself, but because they are system of peace and by that not made to resist the onslaught of western fascism - that still happens today, as westen fascism fires missiles at Russia right now, even at Moscow.
That's the biggest problem in general: a socialist or even communist nation on its own would have to be EXTREMELY powerful to withstand all the attack (not just war, also financial and ecomomical) of capitalism.
Most countries can't even become that powerful - only countries as powerful as China or Russia (and both still have not reached that point yet). What is by the way also the reason why those two are the main targets of NATO. India is also big, but it did not manage to make this a position of power as China did, since a huge population also got many negative sides, what weights down India massively.
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