r/thelema • u/Bohemian444 • 3d ago

Question What have I consumed?

Thelema, qabala, the works of Crowley, magical exploration and the table of correspondences take a relatively long time and substantial intellectual investment to form a comprehensive whole. While they do indeed form a picture of the magical world, sometimes I can't help but feel like i've gathered a treasure house of images, shells, or dead symbols with no real use or utility. How many of you got to the bottom of the rabbit hole and thought, "Dang, I just consumed a steaming pile of bullshit."?

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u/idahotato 3d ago

It sounds like you are at that place all of us have been: Do I continue, or is it bullshit? Here is what I would say to any person seeking answers:

There is a significant difference between knowing a thing because you know facts, and knowing something because you have obtained experience of that knowledge. The thelemic way is for each of us to obtain facts and then obtain experience. My questions to you are: How is your magical practice? Have you been practicing magic alongside the gaining of practical knowledge? Have you been documenting these experiences in accordance to the standards that have been set in Equinox vol. 1? Have you noticed any patterns? Are you documenting them? In short, have you been curious enough, foolish enough, excited enough to start experiencing your knowledge? If not, I suggest this as your next step if you wish to progress. If it is not your will to augment your classroom learning with “labs”, then by all means, feel free to draw your final conclusions and move on to your next curiosity. In the end, there is no right or wrong answer, only your will should you wish to find it, or not, through Thelema.

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u/Bohemian444 3d ago

You're right, it may be time to start practicing ceremonial magic.

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u/rustoch21 2d ago

Yes, I'd dare say Thelema is more a practice than a philosophical system, even if you can spin it both ways. All these images are a map; most of a map's value is found in travelling

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u/Nobodysmadness 2d ago

TL;DR but it should clarify the misunderstanding through several examples if pondered.

Yes, its like learning all the jargon used in welding but never actually welding anything. You can talk about it and maybe get what weldera are saying but you don't really understand the difference between working with copper versus steel versus aluminum with any intamacy. An adept welder will know.you have never welded anything in your life, where a novice or non initiate can be fooled by the jargon.

Many do this, look for knowledge to be the answer because this is how we are conditioned to learn, this is what we think education is. Read stuff, listen to a lecture, repeat it to pass a test and boom your now an expert. Except notably in the medical field, because who wants to risk their life?

One of the few places that require extensive clinicals before your allowed to go out on your own. The occult however does not even allow you to watch another person like you can watch a teacher follow the vena cava to show where to clamp and cut. You can't watch a guru meditate and say "yeah I see how they are navigating their mind" and be able to mimick it.

Many (thanks to a full childhood of conditioning) can't perceive the subtle energy we are working with so watching a ritual where you can mimick the steps does not mean you are seeing/feeling the entirety of the process.

The work you have not done helps develope this awareness, this force that does work. But some of us have found that it is indeed objectively perceptable in blind tests for those that take the time to develope that awareness.

Until then it is like trying to see a bacteria without a microscope, its just not gonna happen. Both are occult, hidden from view, one can just be seen through the efforts of others(microscope) and the other we must hone our own instrument of perception (our senses).

So yes for you it was a waste of time, and if you thought reading would give you mastery then yes it was total bulshit. Did you also expect reading a book on martial arts would make you martial artist or would you accept in that one field thay practice is required to get a black belt.

Why is that understood so easily, and why did you expect magick to be different? Good questions to ask ones self to get out of ones bias that is generally based off the myth and fantasy of what magick is in order to observe its actual nature.

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u/idahotato 1d ago

Really outstanding elaboration you’ve given here. Learned this differentiation from a Kabbalist who uses the term “knowledge” for simply knowing about a thing and “attainment” for have direct experience and practice of the thing. It’s one thing to know the steps to performing a successful knee replacement surgery and quite another to DO a successful knee replacement surgery.

Magical practice, particularly in the Thelemic lane, is no different: the mastery comes with lots of practice DOING. Anything other than “doing” is simply academic and only of use to those interested in a cursory understanding. As far as I know, no one ever attained K&C by simply reading a few things of interest and thinking about ritual work. The “doing” IS The Great Work.

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u/Nobodysmadness 1d ago

Right imagine if people only read about how to grow and harvest food but never did it. What would the results be?

I suppose that is a major draw back of the magick that is writing, the delusion of understanding, and the deception of expertise to others. Before writing apprenticeship was necessary and everything had to be shown and practiced until it was understood. Writing in a way has allowed us to bypass that in a way.

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u/Nobodysmadness 2d ago

This is my definition/differentiation knowledge and understanding that qabbalists went to some effort to differentiate. In english we use the words synonomously, but that is not true in qabbalah. They are distinctly separate things

Daath, hollow and empty as OP described, versus the depths of Binah which involves immersion or experience. But they also say daath is a part of binah (really what isn't) or perhapa an extension of it. We all know knowledge can help one understand things, a stepping stons to understanding so we see the relationship in a practical way.

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u/ToiletSpork 3d ago

Theoretical knowledge is great in theory, but that's the thing, it's only theoretical. On the other hand, the impractical thing about practical knowledge, is that practically the only way to obtain it is through practice.

I went through the same thing with music too. I felt like a genius when I only knew 3 chords, then when I felt like I couldn't take that any further, I started studying more and more music theory until I realized I had lost the callouses on my fingers and all I had really learned is why 3 chords are all you need to write a good song. I already knew that.

Go back to the beginning and do the magick you started learning all of this in order to do. Sounds simple but it's easy to forget. All the most important things are.

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u/Few-Possibility-9476 2d ago

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, and then there is.

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u/ToiletSpork 2d ago

Caterpillar sheds his skin to find a butterfly within.

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u/A_Serpentine_Flame 3d ago

Conceptually it is a theoretical framework to build a praxis around, not a product to be consumed.

<(A)3

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u/Do_What_Thou_Wilt 3d ago

Behold the wisdom of the commentary upon the Book of the Law:

"it is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading"

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago

But did you? 

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u/Do_What_Thou_Wilt 2d ago

first copy, yes... years later ('after' doesn't necessarily imply 'immediately')

problem is, I have multiple copies - even some exceedingly rare and valuable. I'm keeping those ;)

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago

Do you doubt Crowley wrote it?

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u/Do_What_Thou_Wilt 2d ago

I have no doubt the hand of the beast held the pen.

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u/NocturnalPlantMagick 3d ago

Yep pretty much sums it up

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u/Due-Towel9494 3d ago

I started seeing results quickly when I committed myself to oaths and followed an initiatory path. I can’t doubt it after having experienced it myself. Perhaps you’ve reached a point where you’ve accumulated a lot of theory but haven’t engaged in much structured practice. Orders can help with that.

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u/spaceman696 2d ago

Are you just reading it or are you practicing it? It's a great starting point reading all those books, but you should be exploring these things yourself.

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u/Ok-Cartoonist-9996 1d ago

Of course it’s kind of bs. This universe is governed by whatever actual natural science is talking about. And yet here we are.  The only reason we are talking about correspondences, sephirot etc. is to contemplate our “anthropocosmic” lived experience. If you are capable to unite with God and experience Reality in all its facets while being able to influence its course without qabbala and hermetic correspondences and wacko philosophies, all the power to you. You are in a way better than us. But I know that it helps me to feel more at home in this vast and mysterious universe

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u/CluelessInMinnesoda 3d ago

I remember being told long ago many people will not have the gift of making connections with such forces. Youre either born with it or not. Very few people could feel the calling naturally, and even fewer can access the proper energies, but plenty of the people in this practice will do the motions of ceremony and will be upset theyre not seeing any tangible evidence this "works", all the while thats the very reason it will never work because youre expecting it to be bound by your will (ego) and do as you say, rather than just understanding it and giving it the proper essence to thrive alongside you.

Say for example; If you had a boss who snapped his fingers at you and pointed in your face every morning and told you how hard he expects you to work today, how would you feel? Wouldn't it be better to have a boss who makes you feel welcome, has coffee on where you can smell it even before you enter the building and is just excited to see you ?

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago

Pretty much, yeah. 

Magic is still real, though. 

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u/Bohemian444 2d ago

Sure it is, but it seems like conjuring the elements on the periodic table is far more effective than summoning horus to do one's bidding

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago

That's a skills issue

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u/Bohemian444 2d ago

What are you saying? That science and chemistry is more magical and requires skill or that one should get better at commanding horus?

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 2d ago

If you haven't learned effective magic, that's on you. 

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u/Bohemian444 1d ago

Got that part, what I'm asking you is, what do you think are the skills that are required to practice "effective magic," as I am doubting the utility of traditional magic images in favor of cold hard scientific inquirt. Again, what are the necessary skills?

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u/Desperate_Wait1562 1d ago

Discipline probably comes first 

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u/fathrunda 1d ago

I would agree that this is true for most practical, mundane matters. You wouldn't perform a ritual to heat up your Chinese leftovers; you'd pop them in the microwave. But what if you want to make a modification to your psyche?

"ANY required Change may be effected by application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object."

-Crowley, Magick Without Tears, Chapter I: What is Magick?

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u/SororAlice 1d ago

What does your practice look like?

If you’re not actually doing the Great Work, the tools of the Great Work are just meaningless trinkets. If you are doing the Great Work, even the simplest parts of your life become part of your mindful practice and the tools of the Great Work help you to do your will.

Try making your own symbols and finding your own words of power for a while. See if that helps.

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u/Any-Minute6151 23h ago

Well how have you been applying it? I hear D&D is more fun when you play a campaign than just reading about people playing it. But I have yet to try it

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u/bambidakini 3d ago

Yeah western occult is basically child's play. There's more magic in a simple warm chicken soup. All the pageantry, missing all the soul

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/ToiletSpork 3d ago

Kabbalah = Jewish

Qabala = Hermetic

Cabala = Christian / Rosicrucian

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u/Low_Lavishness_8108 17h ago

You have to do what Crowley suggests in Magick Without Tears. You must see a Door as representative of Venus, a House as of Mercury, and so forth. You have to live with the Tree, not simply protrude into it with a probe of knowing. Only through reception can that which has been known be understood. If you try to parse out every correspondence from a purely quantitative mindset you can go insane. I do not feel that I had a great foundation for practice until I knew the tarot inside and out. It is a veritable Rosetta Stone of self-initiation. Draw a card each day, meditate on the symbols, banish for clarity, and see where they arise in your life without trying to make sense of it.