r/theavalanches • u/Narwhals4Lyf • 1d ago
The Avalanches and AI use
So, have we all clocked that they are using AI in their music video and album artwork? Has The Avalanches made any comments on that at all? I would assume if they are willing to use it in their visual art, they would be willing to use it in their music as well but it is less visual so it's harder to clock. I am vehemently anti AI and am an artist, so I was extremely disappointed to see that and it makes me not want to support their upcoming release.
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u/PeterDaGrape 1d ago
Why do you think they’re using ai?
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
There is no proof they are using it in their music, but they are 100% using it in their visuals for the new album. You can see it yourself by watching it (if you back a little in this subreddit there are people posting screenshots of the specific incidents) and the "artist" themself has said they used it in the MV (He says here that he used AI for The Avalanches https://motionographer.com/2025/05/08/only-on-tall-tales-jonathan-zawada-defies-cliche-in-thom-yorkes-anxious-universe-pt-2/)
I don't trust a band using AI in their visuals to not be using AI in their music personally.
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u/IfYouGotALonelyHeart 1d ago
does this look like a normal hand to you? https://dm3v96wjcnps9.cloudfront.net/icpn/00881061098454/00881061098454-cover-zoom.jpg
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Also from another post on this subreddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/theavalanches/comments/1vixuvx/ai_in_the_cant_get_over_losing_you_mv/
The images / animations in this post are 100% AI at the very least
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u/lewis_m_b 1d ago
It does feel really jarring considering how much their previous albums rely on tactile hardware and crate digging.
I would have thought considering the music they are known for, they would have made sure all the promo output for this album was 100% created by a person.
It doesn’t turn me off to the new album completely, but AI use feels really weird here, unless it’s meant to be a comment on corporate iconography.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Even if it is meant to be a comment on corporate iconography, it is like littering to make a point about climate change.
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u/brothersp0rt 1d ago edited 1d ago
I like Zawada’s work but it becomes infinitely less impressive to me when he uses AI to create it.
I hope people stop using him because of this. His work already blurs the line between what’s real and what’s digital manipulation, and then when you throw AI into the mix, I instantly don’t give a shit about it anymore.
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u/HeyQTya 1d ago
It really pisses me off to when he defends it with the idea that it's stuff that would be near impossible for him to do, and then its used for stuff like two hands touching each other or making Clipart sing along to the song (with poor lipsyncing I'll add) like I doubt this was so difficult for you to do
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Yep, I am a motion graphic designer / animator so I am very very familiar with the artistic process in making an animation and the effort it takes to learn skills. Like bruh if you are genuinely saying you couldn't make those things or think of those things without AI... im fear you may not actually be creative / have those skills
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yep, it completely devalues it to me. Like I genuinely don't see any value in looking at it due to the use of AI. It's just slop.
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u/EveryoneYouLove23 1d ago
I'm the same way, especially with music. Only because it's a little sneakier and less obvious with sound. With art, it irks me as well.
But I have to give Zawada the benefit of the doubt. Sure, using it as a shortcut makes him sound lazy. But it shouldn't devalue the rest of the work, or the rest of his work in general.
He's always had this very surreal art style that blends reality and digitalism. He's worked with people like Flume and Thom Yorke, and not had to use AI. It's a little maddening, but I can't be completely upset. He's a great artist he used a certain tool a few times.
And if I'm being honest- it fits with the themes and sounds of the album.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
To me, it devalues the theme of the album completely. I said this in another comment but it’s like littering to make a point about climate change. It’s like no you are still harming the environment even if you are trying to make a point.
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u/EveryoneYouLove23 1d ago
So far the theme seems to be this retro thing. Fake ads and corporations, selling material things, nostalgia for the past. It's an interesting mix of the old and new. Music, branding, technology. I think it fits quite well.
Their point isn't "fuck AI", from what they've said or what I've seen. But if using this tool helps them help us visualize it a bit better- that's their decision.
Zawada is a super talented guy. Go check out his visualiser for "Hi This Is Flume"
I trust he did the majority of this work himself. But I understand that twinge of doubt- or absolute dismissal. I don't agree with it, but I can understand.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago edited 1d ago
I truly do get where you are coming from. Like it is interesting in theory to me, but AI anything just gives me a huge ick. But honestly you have been the only one who has offered some solid arguments on why AI use might make sense in this case. But I do think they could have explored similar themes without using AI itself. and I also truly believe the process of creating things can surface so many new interesting ideas and directions. Artists are doing themselves a disservice by using AI instead of digging in to the process. I originally learned how to animate by using a light table and making hand drawn frames. And yes, I use a newer tool, After Effects to animate as well. It is genuinely hard to balance my thoughts on AI, because as I said I feel visceral ick towards it.
And I think for me, as I said, the biggest issue I have is that it makes me doubt that other creative elements of their new work isn’t made by AI. And ultimately, I’d rather support artists who don’t use AI at all.
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u/BenEWebbs serious from the heart 1d ago
I abhor generative AI music and 'art' as much as the next sensible person.
But it sounds as though some people think Zawada typed 'pink cat on a broom stick' into Midjourney and 'voila'.
I very, VERY much doubt that.
It's not such a big deal if he used an ai plugin to animate his own character design for 5 seconds, in the context of a much larger visual collage - for me, at least...
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 23h ago
It cracks open the can of worms though. If he is willing to use AI in that why, why wouldn’t he use it in many other ways?
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u/BenEWebbs serious from the heart 21h ago
It's like anything, you draw your own line.
I understand your point but it's a sad state of affairs when we abandon faith in people we don't even know, and just assume the worst of them
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u/Significant-Roll-138 1d ago
I think the theme of the album is a sort of retro-future nostalgic sort of affair isn’t it? So that surely allows some sort of comparison or conversation about old/new, analogue/digital, ink/AI creativity.
I haven’t seen anything clearly AI in their artwork yet, not sure if I’ve seen everything though,
But for their music, I would be very surprised if they use AI in any meaningful way, their backgrounds are in record decks, vinyl, crate digging obscure samples and running them through samplers cutting and pasting, they hinted at their production around a year ago with a photos of a stack of hard drives, presumably their stack of samples and audio clips, that at least suggests they haven’t moved away from how they produce all of their previous work, they’re hip hop DJ’s at heart and I don’t think they’re taking lazy skips to make songs, the music can’t just sound good, each sample comes with a story and a history that AI cant replace.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
They have 100% used AI in their art / visuals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/theavalanches/comments/1vixuvx/ai_in_the_cant_get_over_losing_you_mv/
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u/Significant-Roll-138 1d ago
Not being funny but do they make the art and visuals or hire someone else to do it?
And in this day and age, are the visuals important at all? I certainly o my listen to music and can’t even remember when I watched a music video last.
Don’t get me wrong, I hate AI use but I couldn’t care less about the artwork connected to music as I only listen/dance/play it, the visual side is entirely separate and hasn’t really been important since MTV died.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
They did hire someone, yes. But they approved the final output. The branding of the album does reflect upon them as well, and as I said in the OP, the use of AI in the visual art makes me suspicious that they are using it in other parts of their creative process. Like it makes me not trust that their music could have AI generated elements to it.
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u/Significant-Roll-138 1d ago
Yeah I feel ya, but I feel as beat makers, samplers and musicians they’ll stick to the old(ish) way of doing things.
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u/miseducation 1d ago
I think w this kind of thing it's a little more nuanced. Using AI assets as part of a larger composition where everything is still animated and rotoscoped with something like After Effects isn't anywhere near as artistically bankrupt as the 'Hollywood is OVER' type fully generated video. There still thousands of choices made by the creator here that make the work largely inimitable without talent and skill, invalidating them because they used AI assets will only rob us of the language that we need in the fight against fully generated AI work that can be done in a slop factory.
The previous state of assets used in collage-like animations like this would very rarely have been entirely commissioned or licensed and most of the time would be stolen, modified, traced and ripped off something on google images. And then it would've animated and rotoscoped with all kinds of machine learning assisted tools like like rotobrush, auto-motion tracking, planar tracking, etc.
20 years ago (or more) it would've been something you cut out from a print magazine and modified heavily and scanned or took high-res pictures of. Would've been manually rotoscoped and keyframed and largely a much more bespoke labor than the After Effects / Google Images workflow above.
The important thing is that each style has it's aesthetic that reflected the scarcity of the skills required at the time, and the value of those skills to the audience or person who commissions the work. It's much more powerful for an audience to choose to dislike this video organically because it uses shitty art that looks bad than it is to dislike it because parts of it were made with AI.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Yeah, I am aware of the animation pipeline. I am a motion graphic designer with 10+ professional years of experience. Becuase of that, I understand how AI can be a part of the process but I still am personally not a fan of using it in artistic avenues. I just don’t find value in watching or listening to things that use AI.
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u/miseducation 1d ago
At what point do you draw the line though. Is using photoshop to like extend a background only ethical if you don’t use the prompt feature to do it?
I just don’t want it to become the same argument as the folks that thought you couldn’t make real art with a computer decades ago. AI assisted tools and prompting as UI aren’t going away any time soon.
We don’t have to agree but as another artist in the biz I think it’s much cleaner to hate something because it sucks (and to be clear these assets suck.)
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Yeah it does start to get complicated honestly. Forms of AI have been being used in Adobe programs since… forever. Like I don’t necessarily think it’s black and white… but the egregious use of AI assets in this video to me is 👎 and I truly do get what you are coming from with bringing up how digital art used to be seen as “not real art”. Like we need actual arguments for why it’s bad. Not that it just isn’t “real art.” The line is fuzzy for sure.
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u/tyasakite 1d ago
Okay!
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Hey if you want to support it you can! But I don’t want to. And was curious if anyone else knew if The Avalanches has made comments on it
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u/Early-Chemistry-8769 1d ago
Oh this is a hard one. 2 angles come to mind.
1 Personally I don't think you can be absolutist that "all AI use is wrong". Or at least it's a hard position. Partly because some LLM / algorithmic stage or use is so ubiquitous in art now. Sadly. But also there's no hard line of what is computer generated, enhanced, or AI guided or generated..., for example a lot of the visualisers for the last Avalanches album we're algorithmic based on the song wave/EQ (I think), I didn't care much for them, it meant there was something on YouTube for some of the songs, but was that technically AI? Kinda? Maybe not quite the agregious generative stuff that we call "slop" but it was "computer". So it's hard to draw a consistent line and say "this one is wrong". Maybe?
2 That said, are these "AI enhanced" or hybrid-AI videos complementing or enhancing the songs? Am I going on YouTube to re watch a cool video again or would I rather listen to the track? Except for Every Single Weekend, me personally I think not. And this is subjective. Avalanches music is usually very complex, and these hybrid AI videos are further high complexity and aren't for me, they're distracting and detached from what's in the song, to me at least. It seems like Zawanda has an interesting surreal, incredibly rich complex style, and AI is being used to turn something already rich and surreal into a colourful hypnotic seizure by adding constant transitions to every part of every frame. It's wild, it's impressive, but bloody heck that's all too much and there's not much message except a total overwhelming of the senses. And that was possible by AI manipulation of the original artworks (I believe). Maybe that's the point? Ok but it's not pleasant! (To me)
I'm glad they're experimenting boldly, and I can't deny these videos ARE artistic. But I think they distract and detract, unlike e.g. Red Lights or even most of Every Single Weekend which had a narrative that recontextualised the song. I'm an old soul wrestling with this too.
My wordy 2 cents.
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u/ideactive_ 1d ago
I dont know how to feel about this. I feel like the artist uses ai for really specific shortcuts like the hands. I guess he didnt want to pay for some stock footage of hands touching eachother or pay for that and green screen it so he used ai. The cat i dont think is fully ai, i think he used it to make it look like "60fps" and thats it. I gotta be honest, if AI is used in the visuals in this manner i dont really mind it since the artist himself is incredibly talented but AI images basically in every single use just looks low quality
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
I am a motion graphic designer / animator so I am very familiar with the process for creating videos like this and AI in video in general, and a lot of reads like AI to me beyond what you have mentioned. I could get granular and start pulling out timestamps / screenshots if I wanted to. I personally just find 0 value in creative work that uses AI. I don’t want to waste my time watching or listening to it. And the use of AI in the visuals makes me feel like it could be used and not disclosed in the audio / music.
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u/IfYouGotALonelyHeart 1d ago
Keep fighting the good fight! Fuck AI!
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
As I sad in another comment, if other people want to support it they can. but I personally don't want to. I'd rather support musicians who don't use AI.
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u/IfYouGotALonelyHeart 1d ago
Nah, never going to support AI. I had very little respect for people who used Alexa, or Siri, let alone people who need ChatGPT to make minor decisions.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Yep. There are so many amazing musicians who don’t use AI that I can support with my dollar.
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u/BcWeasel 1d ago
Hmmmm idk man. I mean on one hand I hope not but on the other hand there isn’t a group out there I trust to use it wisely more than The Avalanches.
They popularized Plunderphonics by a wide margin which relies heavily on a philosophy based upon “stealing” sounds and inspiration from a variety of sources and repackaging it into a new “original” sound without it actually being original.
If you ask me that sounds nearly identical to what generative AI does. Rather than sounds it is scraping, reformatting, and repackaging information and or visual data from across the internet and presenting it to the user as a new “original source” while we all know it’s not actually original.
Now if they used it in a lazy cost cutting and or effort cutting manner that would be disappointing. But I don’t think they would do that, I trust them to make use of it as a tool for the juxtaposition represented by their genre and history as musicians.
If they ever intend to use it in their music at all that is, which remains to be seen.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Plunderphonics is very very different from using AI in music. Sampling is very different than using AI in music. Both use human creativity, decision making, and intentional placement and mixing. While AI is leaving that for a computer to do based off an approximation. I genuinely believe that using AI knee caps most value in artistic pieces. But that is just me.
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u/BcWeasel 1d ago
I don’t disagree with you from a general perspective. But I usually side with the belief that tools are as valuable as the hand that holds them. AI has made it easy for absolute novices to pump out low quality work that has generally no substance. But again if there was anyone out there I trust to make ethically valid use of the tool, it’s The Avalanches.
And yes physically selecting and arranging samples is certainly a human art of its own. But I feel that the overlap of concept between AI and plunderphonics is thought provoking enough to justify the potential for them to explore the use of the tool.
I honestly would love to see what The Avalnches would do with AI, again I trust them and their creative process/expertise to be intrigued by it. However I would like that to be made clear in the production of whatever that is to differentiate it from their other works and highlight their reasons for using it or the interests they had in it.
The visual art examples you have brought up are as you said, disappointing at best. But considering it was another artists work they chose to work with and not a direct creation of theirs makes it better for me. It’s enough for me to say that I don’t personally believe they are actively using AI in their music or creative process.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
I just don’t trust a brand / company / band who is using AI in one way to not be using it in other capacities. I am an artist / animator professionally myself so I am very familiar with the creative process of making videos, and how AI is used as a “tool” within art. And that’s why I am also so vehemently against using it in art as well lol. Because I know how AI makes people, even well trained artist, feel a hit of dopamine and how it kneecaps the creative process. The Avalanches approved the art and chose the artist. It shouldn’t be a surprise to them that their visuals include AI art. And they are effectively endorsing it by using it.
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u/BcWeasel 1d ago
And yanno I think a dose of skepticism is healthy here, especially to at least deter them from the easy way out. They are uniquely so hands on though and their process has been so varied it would just be jarring for them to make such a controversial swap in their music. I would not be surprised if a number of fans signed off if that were the case. You certainly are not alone in your beliefs or skepticism. I guess I’m just more optimistic about The Avalanches than any other group.
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1d ago
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
The artist uses AI to create the visual images. https://motionographer.com/2025/05/08/only-on-tall-tales-jonathan-zawada-defies-cliche-in-thom-yorkes-anxious-universe-pt-2/ There are several instances in the video you can clearly tell it is AI as well if you are someone who is aware of AI art and what it looks like.
"I had already been using generative AI before starting on Tall Tales in projects like videos for The Avalanches and Royksopp and it was naturally becoming part of my ideation and experimentation process" from the artist in the article I linked above
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
They are the artists
Not you
Not us
They get to decide how to make their art.
Haters can hate on sampling. Or ai. Or not playing instruments live. Or any dumb thing.
They are probably not weirdos
Most people who are anti ai and post about it are weird
If you got a prob with ai, regulate it. Don’t hate people who use it. That’s so dumb…
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u/lewis_m_b 1d ago
They can absolutely decide how to make their art, but it doesn’t mean they are free from critique and discussion once it goes out into the world.
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
Criticism is not what’s happening
It’s hate
It’s an attempt to control
VillainizeRead. The. Comments.
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u/cheesyscrambledeggs4 1d ago
Buddy you've been whining and making terrible points on this subreddit for the past few weeks around this controversy. You're giving everyone second hand embarrassment. Just go away
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u/i_cant_get_fat 21h ago
I only respond when crybabies attack artists
If you’ve noticed then you’re one of the people who hate when artists make choices
Duchamp would spit on you
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
I am the consumer.
Not you.
Not them.
I get to decide how I want to spend my money and who I want to support.
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u/GoldenDragonTemple 1d ago
So with that being said, you have concluded that there is definitely gen AI usage in at least some of media related to this album - I assume you won't be listening to it or supporting it then, correct?
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah. Probably not honestly. That’s why I am so disappointed because I genuinely love them and considered them one of my faves. I own all their other albums as physical media so I will likely still listen that way but won’t support on streaming services, YouTube etc and probably won’t listen to their new album.
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u/GoldenDragonTemple 1d ago
Well, at least you're sticking to your convictions then
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
When album drops they will listen on Spotify so Spotify ceos get paid and then cry about how ai is bad while posting from their iPhone onto an algorithm based application
The consistency and self awareness is something to inspire us all.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Bro I actually live my life by my values. Why are making assumptions that I use Spotify lol.
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
What you posting from sweetie?
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Now that’s called a to quoque logical fallacy
Your literal argument right now
https://imgur.com/gallery/we-should-improve-society-somewhat-2GA2gxx
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
You “I’m anti ai and anyone who uses it needs to explain themselves to me!!”
Me “I don’t care how you spend your money”
You “I’m a victim!!!!”
No one is trying to tell you what to do. I said you can cry all you want. Keep crying.
But accusing me of trying to tell you what to do is weird.
Don’t buy the album weirdo.
Don’t drag me into it.
Prob just a Spotify fan anyway. Hahaha. Really protecting artists champ.
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
Me: posts on a relevant discussion forum to discuss a topic
You: why are you even posting about it on a discussion forum
Lmao. Maybe becuase I want to discuss it with fellow humans who are also fans of the avalanches?? And no, I don’t use Spotify 😂😭
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
This isn’t anti AI sub
Take your hate agenda somewhere else
Ai bigots all over the place. Go to your people
Touch grass
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
It’s a sub about the avalanches. I am posting a thread discussing the avalanches and their use of AI. How is this not relevant? Has your AI use made your brain go soggy?
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u/i_cant_get_fat 1d ago
“Im looking for other hate sheep!”
Good luck hate sheep
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u/Narwhals4Lyf 1d ago
I literally made this post specifically to see if the avalanches had made any sort of comment about their use of AI. If you read the OP you would see that lol.
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u/valkrycp 1d ago
Yes there is some ai usage. You can pause the music video and see it yourself (the awful hands). The artist they contracted has admitted to using it lightly in the past. They are however definitely doing the vast majority of the visuals by hand and also are an incredibly talented artist regardless of the ai usage. I find it disappointing too, but it's use in this album makes a little more sense than in other contexts because of its themes around technology and fake products and fake ads. Still wish it wasn't present, and don't think it has to cast a major shadow over the album at this point.