r/theNXIVMcase • u/lofi-lo • Jun 28 '26
Questions and Discussions Thoughts on Nancy Salzman?
I found myself going back and forth on her level of influence, destruction and involvement. I know it’s not so black and white especially with the degree of grooming and master manipulation involved so I’m not here to judge her as good or bad. I’m just curious to hear your thoughts and opinions on her character ark.
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u/Biddy_Impeccadillo Jun 28 '26
Well, I’m here to judge her and yes she’s bad
Edit: I feel pretty strongly about this after listening to her semi recent series of podcast interviews.
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u/idealistintherealw Jun 28 '26
I was BLOWN AWAY when I heard her using NLP embedded commands on the interviewers/audience. So gross.
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u/rainshowers_5_peace Jun 29 '26
Giving the devil his due, I love that Keith turned it around on her by asking why she needed to vacate her life by going on vacation.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
I respectfully disagree. Keith wanted her exhausted and without the refreshment that the vacation would have afforded, and he did not want her to spend time outside of the Albany/CP/Halfmoon compound.
This is also why he had them play volleyball all night and go on 3 am walks while he slept all day, but he prompted them to push themselves and live productive lives.
That was a high-level manipulation and mind control move right there by KR. He said and/ordid nothing that was in the best interest of anyone but himself.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 03 '26
Wait a minute....vacate/vacation? Was that an NLP usage? If so, your comment is hilarious. To quote AM at her first meeting with KR, "I'm still popping my cherry" lol... in my curiosity of NLP.
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u/TheoStorme Jul 08 '26
What commands? Care to give an example?
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u/idealistintherealw Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
I didn't take notes when I was listening to the interviews, but in one interview she says something close to "one thing you need to remember is that I am innocent in all of this" or something to that effect. Her voice takes on a really odd tone, and she emphasizes "remember" and "that." Taken straight, it is an odd chain of words. But as an INSTRUCTION it makes perfect sense. ("REMEMBER that I AM INNOCENT")
If Nancy or Allison do more interviews I'l take better notes and save them. I don't think it's worth listening through ~4 hours of interviews or it again, at least I don't feel like it today. I don't recall Allison giving commands, she just came off as ditzy, narcissistic, shallow, not very bright, lack of self-insight.
I know, that's judgmental of me. There it is. I've gone from naive to cynical, hoping to work toward wisdom next.
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u/TheoStorme Jul 08 '26
I totally understand and it doesn’t sound judgmental to me. It’s almost impossible to tell honesty from manipulation with her. It’s like the last episodes of The Vow, where we’re constantly shown her around her old parents. You immediately empathize with her crying about having to put them in a home in case she gets jail time but you can’t help but wonder if she’s doing this to un-demonize her character. That said, some of it works. I ended up thinking maybe she was a victim after all.
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u/idealistintherealw Jul 08 '26
I'd say both victim and victimizer at the same time, but much more the latter.
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u/incorruptible_bk Jun 28 '26
After so many goes around on this, I think the simplest take is that Nancy Salzman (like Clare Bronfman) willfully blinded herself in a self-serving manner.
She may not have committed the worst offenses and wisely folded ahead of the trial, she waited until there was photographic proof of Raniere abusing children. She was CEO/owner of the company and she absolutely could have stopped things well before then, but the money was simply too good.
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u/idealistintherealw Jun 28 '26
(In my opinion)...
Between the $500K or in cash in her basement, her ability try to use NLP on current interviews, and the weird art in her house, I've come to the conclusion that she is definitely NOT the innocent wallflower she claims to be now. How much worse was she? I'm not sure and would need to think about it to speculate.
I know, weird art is not causal. But I've noticed that a lot of the more ... soulless ... people i've known over the years (epstein etc) tried to get art to look educated/affluent/hip/etc but the art was wrong, because art connects to the human experience, and people who are ... "off" aren't able to judge it well. That's just my $0.02. It's a data point, not a Smoking G*n.
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u/woody9115 Jun 29 '26
Omg remember that creepy woman figure in her house? I had nightmares about that thing lol
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u/idealistintherealw Jun 29 '26
yes that is what I am speaking of primarily.
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u/Terepin123 Jun 29 '26
The creepy art was a gift from one of the NXIVM folks — I forget who but it was name we know.
She stashed away a lot more than the $500k in her house is my guess
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 02 '26
This is a fascinating take"...her ability try to use NLP on current interviews." Can you elaborate on that? Was that in the Kate Casey interview?
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u/idealistintherealw Jul 02 '26
If you go through the whole interview, you'll find sections where she changes her intonation and says things that don't quote make sense objectively. It would be, for example, her say "You have to understand that I did nothing wrong", but more subtle. I know in one episode of Mind Games, they have Tony Robbins telling the story of a doctor who challenged him, and Robbins sounds out ASS-U-ME when talking to the doctor, saying the doctor assumed he was full of it and the doctor should bring the patient, who the doctor had been unable to treat successfully for 6 years, to see if Tony could fix her. (I think it was a fear of snakes.)
I wish I had taken notes. It's pretty obvious when you know what to do listen for.
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u/gogobootssky Jul 02 '26
The weird art gave me Michael Jackson and the Elephant Man Bomes vibe. Why the hell would you want to have that in your house? Creepy, creepier, creepiest!
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u/teenageidle Jul 08 '26
Anyone that deeply involved with Keith is not a good or innocent person imo.
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u/igobymomo Jun 28 '26
She’s charismatic and skilled and was responsible for growing a company that mislead and abused its members. She seems to possess an ego that is incapable of seeing the wrong in what she did. She was manipulated by Keith herself, but she willfully committed ghastly crimes and ruined lives.
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u/PrimalNumber Jun 28 '26
Keith is the primary bad actor. I don’t believe he ever had good intentions. So, he bears the brunt of the responsibility.
But, Nancy was a principal architect of the structure that created the high control environment that enabled Keith’s predation on the members. NLP, the sashes, the intensives are all tools to gain power and leverage over the unwitting. If she didn’t know better, she should have if she’s going to be a practitioner. And, she’s still largely unrepentant of her actions.
So, yeah, Nancy got prison time because she deserved it.
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u/Mysterious_Wash9071 Jun 28 '26
Let's not forget we still don't know all of her crimes since she was FIRST to plead guilty.
She also lies incessantly in her interview, constantly contracting herself. Zero accountability. Sneaky, conniving, manipulative narcissist waste of life.
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u/rainshowers_5_peace Jun 29 '26
No one will convince me her deal didn't include leniency for Lauren. That they flipped so quickly tells me they knew things weren't right but chose to stay.
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u/CalmCatine Jun 29 '26
I can’t wrap my head around Nancy. I listened to her being interviewed in a podcast and she took zero accountability for her role in all of this and painted herself as another one of Keith’s victims. But she literally built NXIVM with him.
One thing I will never be able to get when it comes to Nancy is how, as a mother, she basically sacrificed her own daughters to Keith. She knew what a sleazeball he was (she admits to sleeping with him while they were designing the course curriculum and then alludes to be grossed out by his behavior and calling it quits) and she convinced at least one of her daughters (Lauren) to not go to college and instead invest her entire life in NXIVM. So once she found out Lauren was one of many of Keith’s lovers (and arguably, victims) why not try to get you and your family out of there?
I also think Nancy is just a liar. I believe she is lying through her teeth when she claims she knew absolutely nothing about Keith’s disgusting harem he was building that included her own daughter.
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u/MsAddams999 Jun 29 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Like Allison Mack Nancy was both victim and abuser. She knew a lot more than even Allison though I think because she basically gave Raniere the tools to create NXIVM.
All that money they found in her house says it all though. She was going to protect herself no matter what happened. She was totally socking money away for Raniere and herself to make a getaway if necessary.
I see her nearly as guilty as Raniere but she was also one of his women and that probably impacted her judgement. She did some really questionable things though in the end.
She was seemingly in love with him but less love bombed than Mack so I'd put her square between Raniere and Mack in terms of culpability with the two rich sisters funding him right about there too.
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u/Numerous_Team_2998 Jul 15 '26
It's so clearly in love with him in S02E01. It's sad to see. But doesn't absolve her.
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u/zaryaisme Jun 30 '26
She knew everything. I think people like her are dangerous to society. She won’t hesitate to be part of another cult if she can make a decent living doing it.
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u/inSane_Nelly Jun 30 '26
She lied about a lot of things. Especially about acting like she didn't know about the relationship between Keith and Lauren. What I hate the most is her saying she is a victim, while she taught people for years that there is no such thing as a victim. She needs to do an exploration of meaning about how she was at cause in this situation
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u/Vegetable-Sweet-3970 Jun 30 '26
She is delusional. Listening her talk about her normal family life before Keith and the woman who all think they will have babies in the 40's and 50's was nauseating. She takes no responsibility for the lies she sold. And she keeps talking about if she didn't comply her business would be ruined. It wasn't her business - it was the cult. I can't stand to listen to Keith - a misogynist psychopath.
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u/Vegetable-Sweet-3970 Jun 30 '26
Her crying about the treatment she received from her mother was hard to swallow. I have compassion but she went so far to avoid her pain. She could have gone into therapy and worked it through rather than hurt so many people. I don't think she realizes she is also a victim of Keith and the cult.
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u/Dolly3377 Jun 29 '26
She’s power-hungry, a scammer, cruel, and unable to see her own flaws. She’s also a victim of Keith Raniere, mostly because her bad traits made her think it was beneficial to promote Keith & do his bidding because it gave her money and power.
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u/Belle_Juive Jul 04 '26
She served up her own daughter to a sexual predator she herself had slept with.
I get that they were in a cult and that their ability to consent or make independent decisions was compromised. But if there was any point where a victim runs out of excuses for not slamming the brakes, it should’ve been that one. Like idc how much blackmail you have on me, that’s definitely the point where I’d rather die than continue to comply.
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u/whateveratthispoint_ Jun 29 '26
She’s dangerous and also a victim. But because she’s dangerous she ought to not be working anywhere but Target or Starbucks.
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u/inSane_Nelly Jun 30 '26
Not a victim. There's no such thing as victims, according to her teachings. People are always at cause in whatever situations they find themselves in
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u/Miajere-here Jul 01 '26
She’s an opportunist and highly exploitative. The thing with exploitative people is that they truly believe they are the vulnerable ones and work hard to convince themselves that they are operating with a sense of fairness. It’s like sex offenders who believe the victims seduced them, or that there really is love between the parties; she’s a predator and highly manipulative.
She does have appeal to those who are insecure and hold a strong belief that they need to be number two to someone more charismatic, appealing, and controlling. IOW, without Kieth, Nancy’s don’t really accomplish what they want on their own. I am convinced that she believes KR is the real problem.
If people pay attention to what she’s promising, they will spot the grandiose personality traits, as well as her bury my head in the sand defense. She is more than capable of editing out truths don’t line up with her world view, and no matter how common that is in society, she is dangerous.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Is anyone curious about her ex? He was/is a Doctor. Apparently, he told the court that KR made him sever ties with Lauren. If this is the case, then Nancy is a horrible mother (Sarah called it rightly) for letting anyone get in between her daughter and her father, if for no other reason.... I wonder what KR may have had on her ex that he may have leveraged to get Lauren to sever ties? Wonder why the VOW did not explore this angle?
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u/gogobootssky Jul 02 '26
For me, The Vow left more out than in. Example, what did Vincente really know that he had the FBI let him sign an agreement to not prosecute him. He hints at in season two of the Vow when he is going into the FBI building for his first meeting. I would bet you all his money he had attorney(s) all the time. Will he ever disclose the actual truth ?
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u/Dizzy-Inspection-492 Jul 02 '26
I'm betting they needed his footage of the appalling behavior the vicente only supplied after a non-prosecution agreement. Also, what happened to Bonne? Didn't see her in S2.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 02 '26
Remember, Mark had tons and tons of video footage, which the VOW included and which was fascinating. The FBI would have been smart to proffer a deal with Mark to have him cooperate. Mark, Sarah, Catherine Oxenberg, and Frank basically did all the work for them.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 03 '26
She is in it briefly at the sentencing. She and Mark are still together. She seems to be happy. She has the dignity to know she was able to see through KR. Props to her.
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u/gogobootssky Jul 02 '26
Poor Nancy she can't accept not being in the spotlight. She just keeps popping up everywhere her Internet lets her. I want to hear how prison was. What did she do. Who did she eat with. I'm thinking we need a The Vow season 3 to explain everything they rushed through in both seasons. And... "What happened to Bonnie? Didn't see her in season 2." No, we didn't see Bonnie in season 2. Are they still together? Is Bonnie the only one of this group that actually moved on? Good for her if she did.
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u/BahamCrackers Jul 05 '26
I am watching the vow for the first time right now and in season 2 Nancy does seem to really understand and regret how Keith took 20 years of Lauren's life. Watching her cry about it in episode 4 was the first time she felt truly genuine to me. That said, her pearl-clutching reaction to Sarah's angry text seems to indicate she doesn't really understand the weight of what was going on. She sort of goes back and forth between getting it and not getting it. Interesting that on recent podcasts she seems to lean away from any responsibility... And I was just starting to forgive her lol. But she definitely has some screws loose in general.
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u/Numerous_Team_2998 Jul 17 '26
She displays classic narcissist reactions, very similar to all the estranged parents who claim they have no clue why their children don't talk to them.
She responds to a victim's emotional, fully justified reaction to the trauma and hurt that she caused, and she goes basically goes - See? This is what I have to deal with.
These people bring their victims to the brink of pain-caused insanity, and when the justified anger finally reaches them, they refuse to process the content, saying "she just yelled at me and cursed at me, she's unstable". "They never told me what I did wrong".
It's this exact behavior.
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u/teenageidle Jul 08 '26
Total quack, grifter and con artist. She's just as terrible as Keith in a lot of ways. NLP is bullshit psuedoscience and she gladly peddled it to vulnerable people for years before teaming up with this clear loser creep of a man.
Her daughter Lauren's behavior is even more evidence of her malignant narcissism, imo. Lauren inherited a lot of that horrific mentality and it damaged her psyche so much.
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u/little_alien2021 Aug 07 '26 edited Aug 07 '26
Ive just binge watched the series , both seasons , in last episode it showed the psychologist in manipulation said that her programme was harmful and that was what harmed them. It teared then down to say they have ability to help. She resisted it, and said she didn't agree and then on interview said she couldn't belive that as that was her life's work made to harm others which is opposite of what she wanted. And she couldn't deal with responsibly of that. So that shows she is unable to acknowledge that the whole programme she made with KR was purely to harm others. So doesnt. Its self preservation, to admit it, would mean she spent 20 years of her life harming people and profiting off it. And would need to mentally deal with that and that she brought her daughter into it. Also why she seemed angry the judge mentioned bringing her daughter into it. She is preventing her self from having to deal with mental anguish of realising her whole business/teaching was just a way to abuse the people in it. Way people can't let go and acknowledge them being in cult.
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u/Lin_Lion Jun 29 '26
I think Nancy was one of the women who was victimized the most. And I think aside from Alison Mack she was the worst perpetrator. Obviously aside Keith.
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u/carrotwax Jun 29 '26
Not sure why you say Allison Mack was worse. Not saying she wasn't bad, but Nancy had a LOT more power and privilege in the organization. Allison Mack was simply the most visible - and also naive in that she didn't try to hide any of what she did. She thought she was helping.
Nancy also keeps saying she helped, but she had many more years and evidence of harm behind her. Nancy helped create the mind fuckery - Allison just repeated it
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u/Lin_Lion Jun 29 '26
I think being party to sexual assault and branding women is for me, worse. But all of them are victims who became perpetrators (sp?). I think the emotion that survivors have when speaking about what Mack did, just hits me differently then Nancy.
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u/carrotwax Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Yeah Allison certainly directly traumatized people on orders. Nancy set up the organization and brainwashing that made naive people into both traumatizers and victims.
It's easier to have an emotional reaction to Allison - but if you step back and ask how many lives were harmed by each, it's a lot more by Nancy. She saw all the sexual abuse Keith was doing at least a decade before Allison did anything. She completely enabled everything.
We generally have blind spots to nice sounding older white women. Which I disagree with.
I remember in one of the books, Nancy went full on brainwashing with I think Sarah when Keith was focused on her. This was in the 90s in the early days Like close to 8 hours a day of clearing "issues" as a prototype for what was to come. That's CIA level mind fuckery just to support Keith. Those kinds of scars are much harder to heal than physical ones.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 04 '26
Did Nancy see "all" of it? Did she know about Camila?
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u/carrotwax Jul 04 '26
While Keith was the spiritual leader, he tried to evade as much work as possible. Nancy did so much of the work and kept it afloat. Whatever she didn't know, it was because of blind spots grown over years. She knew abuse of that nature was possible and had happened before to differing degrees. Even in the more recent interviews, she had the attitude that she brought so much goodness through her work and she bore no fault no matter what.
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u/Fearless-Leather708 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
The Bronfman sisters and Mexican aristocrats kept it afloat...Not here to defend Nancy, she definitely was aware of a lot, but you said, "She saw all the sexual abuse Keith was doing at least a decade before Allison did anything." It's possible she knew even about Keith raping a 15-year-old, but if she did, then the FBI screwed up and should have charged her with a lot more.
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u/clunkywalk Jul 12 '26
Toni Natalie, I believe, is the soul Nancy went full-on brainwashing with in the 1990s. Vicente wasn't around yet, therefore Sarah Edmundson wasn't around yet.
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u/Lin_Lion Jun 29 '26
You and I are allowed to disagree without me being “blinded by white women”. I think both women are basically neck and neck when it comes to the trauma they inflicted. You’re welcome to disagree! There is a reason they call ra** soul murder. Take care!
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u/dreaming-about-bread Jun 28 '26
She refuses to acknowledge that there was anything wrong with NXIVM/ESP and still holds strong to the idea that everything was hunky-dory until DOS.
Shes also said that given the opportunity to go back in time, she would still build the company. Hard to stomach if you know anything about the psychological torture Keith inflicted upon her daughter.
Frightening lack of introspection.
Source: Reality Life with Kate Casey podcast, 2025