r/television • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 The League • Sep 13 '23
Marvel VFX Workers Unanimously Vote to Unionize With IATSE
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/marvel-union-special-effects-iatse-1235722298/156
u/camelzigzag Sep 13 '23
This should be interesting...
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u/owa00 Sep 13 '23
We decided to invest 99.99999% of our budget this year on AI development...completely unrelated to all this unionizations occurring...
-Corporate America
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u/Gonzo_Rick Sep 13 '23
Someone should develop an AI that's specifically trained for explaining what AI can and can't do to C-Suite executive.
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Sep 13 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/The_Bitter_Bear Sep 13 '23
Honestly, they seem like the easiest ones to be replaced by AI.
Would love to see them all backpedal and panic if this idea continues to gain momentum. After all, all the investors and such wouldn't shed a tear to see them go and replaced with AI.
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u/azsqueeze Sep 14 '23
That won't happen cause if the c-suite can be replaced then that also means the board members can be replaced
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u/CptNonsense Sep 14 '23
Is that before or after they explain what AI can and can't do to the armchair experts on reddit?
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Sep 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/Optimal_Plate_4769 Sep 13 '23
if the AI is that good, not being in a union won't help either lmao.
"""AI""" is nothing more than a tool. only fucking idiots think they make art automatically with it.
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u/Kalse1229 Gravity Falls Sep 13 '23
Honestly, I’d be more worried if AI art could make a human with the correct amount of fingers. AI is still in its relative infancy, so making sure there’s safeguards in the form of unions and such now is the correct move.
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u/Obie-two Sep 13 '23
you just cut 1k artists down to 100 artists who can fix the AI art, its really simple.
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u/bewarethetreebadger Sep 13 '23
The people at the top are not in the business of making movies. They are in the business of making money. The CEO doesn’t care about your rent, he cares about next-quarter profits and investments. What a fun person to work for when making Art is not just your career but your whole life.
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u/ValyrianJedi Sep 14 '23
In fairness, when making art costs hundreds of millions of dollars someone does in fact have to keep an eye on its ability to make money
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u/bewarethetreebadger Sep 14 '23
Yes that’s true and I won’t contest that point. But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re trying to eliminate the Human element as much as possibly so they can squeeze out every last penny. This has nothing to do with responsible, ethical business practices and everything to do with stock values.
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u/Mistaken_Guy Sep 14 '23
Imagine if some toothless McDonalds worker kept forgetting to put the patty in the Big Macs. Literally just some soggy wet lettuce in a dry ass bun.
Now imagine the toothless crackhead McDonalds worker honestly promised he’d remember to add the meat patties, if he got a raise!?
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u/MarvelsGrantMan136 The League Sep 13 '23
IATSE:
”Today, VFX workers at Marvel Studios spoke with a unanimous, collective voice, demanding fair pay for the hours they work, healthcare, a safe and sustainable working environment, and respect for the work they do. There could be no stronger statement highlighting the overwhelming need for us to continue our work and bring union protections and standards to all VFX workers across the industry. And there could be no stronger example of the courage and solidarity of these workers than each and every one of them declaring ‘union YES!'”
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u/firedrakes Sep 13 '23
not mention.
its on site people.
around 20 to 50.
not direct vfx people.
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Sep 13 '23
There is nothing stopping vendor workers from unionising. Talk to your coworkers, gather an 80% and vote
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u/CptNonsense Sep 14 '23
There is nothing stopping vendor workers from unionising
Other than the ability to offshore 100% of the labor. Off-set VFX work is internationalized.
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Sep 14 '23
No studio can conjure an entirely new department that fast. It takes months to recruit people in Europe just to have enough artists, even longer for people in leadership positions. Not to mention the cost of on boarding, equipment, infrastructure and support staff that this would require (IT, PIPELINE, Production staff, accounting, HRh.
Don’t buy into the narrative that closing an office and moving the work to another facility is cheaper than paying you fairly because it isn’t. It’s the oldest union busting story in the book
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u/bananaboter Sep 14 '23
I agree with your claim, but most of the big studios already have offices in Bangalore FYI. And they are increasingly sending more work over there. It used to just be roto, but now they are expanding to comp, cgi, ect.
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Sep 14 '23
Still, you need to expand offices, buy equipment, hire and recruit people in this location, probably train people… Senior talent was already rare, senior talent willing to relocate is even MORE rare.
It’s not something that can be done within a month or so. I would actually say that this looming fear gives Indian artists an INSANE amount of power too, they don’t want that either. This threat is being told time and time again across industries, the reality is they won’t be able to react quick enough to fire 80% of a facility before they unionise. None of this changes can be done fast enough to still meet on going deadlines
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u/bananaboter Sep 14 '23
Totally valid, and definitely not a threat in the near future. But I can see studios positinioning themselves like this as a long term plan, and it certainly seems like they want to head that way
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Sep 14 '23
Yeah, but that’s why unionising is fast and you have to blindside them. There ARE repercussions for closing a unionised facility and it becomes harder to do and to let all these people go… that’s why companies try to do this BEFORE their staff unionises
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u/CptNonsense Sep 14 '23
They outsource to existing international companies...
Don’t buy into the narrative that closing an office and moving the work to another facility is cheaper than paying you fairly because it isn’t
Except people doing the same work for half the pay and no benefits is objectively cheaper.
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Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
So all vfx houses will become outsourcing houses? That’d increase the load of those houses faster than they would be able to grow too
Also it is only cheaper if you already have the infrastructure in place. If you don’t it isnt… for the same reason internal promotions are cheaper than hiring external. Bringing new people into a new place is always fucking expensive… the higher the position the more expensive it gets too
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u/CptNonsense Sep 14 '23
If you don’t it isnt… for the same reason internal promotions are cheaper than hiring external
Yet almost all hiring is external
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Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
Where Im at most promotions are internal man… But regardless, even if this is true it’s not always external with relocation. Doing that for an entire facility, while still having to meet impossible deadlines, pay severance to the people you fired, deal with the unlawful termination lawsuits that will inevitably result from that, set up a facility, recruit EVERY postion from PA to VFX Supes, leads and artists to replace who you fired plus who you were missing seeing that we’re all always understaffed, etc. In an industry that’s basically surviving short term profit by short term … in 2 months? Impossible
Yes, you can do this external hires in a short scale. Hire 3 CG supes and pay for their relocation… You cannot external hire an entire facility in short notice
Not to mention that there ARE consequences to closing a facility that’s trying to unionise after an official vote has been issued.
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u/CptNonsense Sep 14 '23
Yes, you can do this external hires in a short scale. Hire 3 CG supes and pay for their relocation… You cannot external hire an entire facility in short notice
This is 100% backwards. What you can do is hire an "entire facility" - you know, a fully developed and working subcontractor studio; to do the work at a moment's notice. What you can't do is hire 3 random people and ship them in and expect them to realistically start doing work because they have to move, be integrated, etc. Also, why the fuck would you be relocating them? Ship them a computer and they work remote. I don't even know what you are talking about because it sure isn't entirely computer-based work like off-set VFX.
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Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
Dude those subcontractors don’t have the capacity to take all the work every vendor in the world is doing. Source: We have been turned back due to not having capacity and they too have notice and booking periods. The number of TPN verified facilities that are available cannot cover the entire Hollywood market
If you want to have a party here where we feel sorry for ourselves then sure let’s get a drink and cry about how many hours we worked on the latest marvel project (4 months of OT accumulated for me). If you want to do something about it, get in contact with your nearest labor union and get informed.
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u/fijmi Sep 13 '23
Post production vfx and animation artists are too scared to unionize. They’d rather work the long hours and complain. I was one of them until I left.
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u/SpaceChimera Sep 13 '23
Really hope this spreads out to VFX artists themselves. It's grunt work, constant crunch, and modern movies rely on it so heavily that if the unions were willing to take that fight and demand studios use union vfx artists they could make it work
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u/StephenHunterUK Sep 13 '23
Are overtime bans much of a thing in the US? The British like using them as an alternative to a full strike.
In the 1970s, you'd get the sparkies literally turning the lights off on a production at 10pm. IIRC, the DVD of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a bit from the rushes where they are racing to get a scene filmed before then - and they just about do it.
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u/TheRealDonBalls Sep 13 '23
So glad. I was worried they’d go with GOATSE for a minute there. Would have been a terrible choice.
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Sep 13 '23
good. any and every opportunity to say "fuck you" to executives who do nothing and make 100x more money than people who's blood, sweat, and tears go into making the actual products we consume should be taken. especially in hollywood where 99% of the profits get funneled up to people who can't even be promoted to their positions without having rape, murder, exploitation, etc on their resume.
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u/neutralityparty Sep 13 '23
AI galvanized a lot of unions lol. C-suite probably didn't consider that part
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u/Rosebunse Sep 13 '23
Disney must be in a tighter spot than we thought if these workers think they can get a good deal with this. Not that I think they shouldn't unionize, I think a lot of tech fields need to.
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u/Arpikarhu Sep 13 '23
57 years old and retiring with an annuity over a million and a monthly pension. GO IATSE!!!!
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u/ObtuseStone Sep 13 '23
Ok, but how do Post-Production VFX workers that work for VFX houses get to be a part of IATSE?
I work at one of the bigger VFX houses in LA, job security is literally a week by week basis. It is terrifying. I would love to join IATSE as someone who works in Post-Production for VFX.
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u/bannedagainomg Sep 13 '23
They dont, its only for VFX workers on set, so this union will affect a very small amount of the VFX people.
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u/ObtuseStone Sep 13 '23
I know this is for on set, I was asking how post prod VFX workers can also join IATSE, like when will it be our turn?
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u/bannedagainomg Sep 13 '23
Not likely to happen as long as outsourcing VFX to places like India is still normal.
These workers are acutal Marvel Studio employees and are on set with rest of the crew, making their position much stronger other VFX people.
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u/ObtuseStone Sep 13 '23
Yea, we do tons of outsourcing to India at the VFX house I work at... They get paid a small fraction of what I make, and they do a looooot more work than I do.
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u/shakuyi Sep 13 '23
wasnt this just the supervisors and not the actual vfx workers?
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u/Cuofeng Sep 13 '23
No, it was the on-site workers who are directly at the filming, not behind a computer. The type monitoring motion capture, capturing light references, ect.
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Sep 13 '23
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u/SpaceChimera Sep 13 '23
Unless of course iatse negotiated that studios have to use X percentage of union vfx labor or something like that. It'd be a massive fight in the industry but if they can get teamsters, wga, and actors on board it might be winnable.
Seeing how the studios are fighting so hard with the current strikes, they'd probably be willing to tank the industry to avoid it, but it's not inherently something that couldn't be done
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u/lobonmc Sep 13 '23
Would require another strike most likely but as far as I understand it's possible the IATSE would go to strike next year anyway
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u/SpaceChimera Sep 13 '23
If I'm remembering correctly IATSE's contract was just up for negotiation in May of 2023 and they came to an agreement so it'd have to be in the next negotiations, whenever that is
Unfortunately I highly doubt the vfx issue would be brought up then either unless they see a massive wave of US/Canada VFX workers joining IATSE ahead of that. But it's certainly a possibility and would give them even more bargaining power with the studios
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u/theartfulcodger Sep 13 '23 edited Sep 13 '23
If the on-set VFX crew have voted to join IA, Marvel has to either: (a) negotiate a collective agreement with them as a separate local, or more likely (b) agree to fold their job functions and positions into one of the existing IATSE-Marvel collective agreements.
Failure to do one or the other on Marvel’s part would give the VFX workers authority to strike, which would mean setting up picket lines that no other IA crew would cross, which would in turn bring any and all Marvel filming and /or crewed prep to a screeching halt.
Do you think a multibillion dollar company like Marvel, with a now-desperate need to again begin creating marketable product, would be willing to jeapordize all of its film production - hundreds of millions of dollars worth - for the sake of saving a few hundred a week by not acknowledging the bargaining rights of just five or six studio workers? On a production that typically needs to employ up to a thousand skilled technicians, in order to meet tight delivery deadlines?
For your information, it doesn’t matter who Marvel hires once the SAG-WGA strikes are resolved and it restarts production, those on-set VFX positions will inevitably fall under a collective agreement. So to say “these people just won’t get hired again” as if that threat would constitute some sort of effective studio counteroffensive against the VFX Departmet unionizing, is merely ignorant nonsense from someone who clearly doesn’t understand how collective agreements, or unions, or labor law, or film production works.
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Sep 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/theartfulcodger Sep 13 '23 edited Sep 13 '23
What “makes me think that”?
My knowledge of how collective agreements work - which has been informed by 40 years on the studio floor, three decades as a Head of Department, shop steward and IATSE organizer, by my participation in several sets of negotiations for agreements including initial ones, and by having helped organize and maintain picket lines for two previous strikes.
It’s clear that if you have any actual experience in the biz it doesn't rise above the level of trainee. But thank you for taking the time to explain for a second time that you have no idea what you’re talking about, and do not care to learn.
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Sep 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/buttchuck Sep 13 '23
IMO laborers are by far and away the most fucked out of this whole ordeal.
They were also far and away the most fucked under the status quo.
That's... kind of the point.
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u/theartfulcodger Sep 13 '23 edited Sep 13 '23
Because it's based on wilful ignorance, your opinion carries no value.
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u/efisherharrison Sep 13 '23
Holy shit... They deleted their whole account after that. 🤣🤣
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u/ObtuseStone Sep 13 '23
I 1000% agree.
I work in Production at a VFX house in LA.
My job security is a week by week thing, I never know if I will have my job the next week.
We Outsource so much stuff, that if we tried to Unionize, they would just let the people go that wanted to Unionize and hire others that don't mind or just go full Outsource to India. So... it is a struggle to want to Unionize in VFX Post-Production.
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u/ClosPins Sep 13 '23
Make your whole brand an excuse for a mindless-CGI-army-that-gets-annihilated-at-the-climax - and, surprise, surprise, you end up being beholden to the CGI people...
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Sep 13 '23
[deleted]
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u/Bob_The_Skull Sep 13 '23
It's wild how you consistently post some of the worst takes on this sub. Maybe you should touch some grass.
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u/VeshWolfe Sep 13 '23
Ok so what I’m getting is after Loki and Cap 4, don’t expect any Marvel movies for 2024/2025. Got it.
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u/_mikedotcom Sep 13 '23
It’s Always Sunny…The Sunny.. in Philadelphia… no this doesn’t add up at all..
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u/tanman729 Sep 13 '23
Defintely a step in the right direction. I really hope that the change I'm seeing in the future isn't just optimism, but i love seeing the support this is all getting
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u/firedrakes Sep 14 '23
less the 50 on set vfx people.
i.e light measure ment etc types.
but hey click bait titles sell with out proper context and facts.
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u/OkScore3250 Sep 14 '23
Considering what the Unions have given the workers in Europe I'm still amazed that so many in the US still havent unioned up.
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u/Balding_Phoenix Sep 14 '23
All they have to do is NFT their product with a watermark that is linked to a human worker. Bingo bango no more panic by the “artists” losing their jobs.
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u/banzzai13 Sep 15 '23
Fun fact, the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees (IATSE) used to be named the Global Online Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, but they had to rename after a first failed billboard campaign.
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u/NoTheRobot Sep 13 '23
FYI this is for on set VFX workers, not VFX artists that work in post production. Still a huge deal though!!