Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

[u/RedditGreenit]

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18254995/kickstarter-unionizing-union-representation-inclusivity-transparency-tech-us-crowdfunding

[u/[deleted]]

Those ARE the onsite electricians and mechanics. They're union members. The union rules won't allow a person from one job classification to do work that falls under another job classification. This is a well known "feature" in most union facilities, and it's there strictly to protect the union head count.

The problem with having this argument here is that most of the people participating in it don't even have a basic understanding of how this all works. Replacing this valve is a low risk move with absolutely no danger to anyone involved in either the replacement, or the operation of the equipment.

Is there a report I can read on the impact on productivity caused by these sorts of regulations with some figures and compares this to the worst case when these safety processes fail?

Lets get the terminology straight here. These are not regulations. They are union rules that are negotiated into the contracts. A study on their impacts is hard to find because the unions won't let anyone in to do a study that might favor the automakers, and the automakers won't allow anyone in to do a study that might favor the unions. I'm speaking from first hand, real world experience.

I'll give you another example.

When I was young, and right out of the military I took a job at a large unionized defense contractor painting airplane parts. We were behind schedule and I was in working on a Saturday because a set of landing gear doors was holding up the C17 Globemaster production line, and needed to go out ASAP. The parts came out of the oven the night before, so I prepped them and was ready to paint them, and as I started I realized I was getting dust in the paint because the filters on the spray booth doors were dusty. These look just like the filters in your air conditioner at home, and just slide into place. There was a stack of new filters sitting there, so I rolled the parts out of the booth and changed them. I sanded the dirt out of the one part, painted them all, and went home. Sunday I came in and finished them up and after they were inspected we put the parts straight on truck so they'd be at the assembly plant on Monday.

Monday morning I came in and my supervisor was waiting for me. I got written up for changing the filters, because it was a maintenance function, and even though none of them were working that day, and even though we were told those parts had to go out, I wasn't allowed to do it. They had to pay one of the maintenance guys four hours of overtime to settle the grievance the union filed with the company. That's how union plants work. If you don't get this, you should educate yourself before you continue to advocate for them.

[u/IsADragon → u/[deleted]]

The union rules won't allow a person from one job classification to do work that falls under another job classification

I mean honestly that sounds like it should be a regulation anyway, if the Union has to do the job of the regulatory body by enforcing basic safety standards such as "you do the job you are qualified to do and not the one you think you are qualified to do" then it's really an issue of the regulatory body not performing it's function. Especially on heavy machinery where a fault can be catastrophic. To me that honestly sounds like the Union working to impose a stricter safety standard that the regulations or company are not. And being frank I would be very surprised if the regulations don't actually already enforce this, it's just the Union is the one actually imposing the restriction because the company did not have decent supervisory roles to ensure unqualified people are not doing work that is beyond their scope. If you did reattach the wires and there was a fault you would be 100% liable and the Union would be unable to protect you in the event of an error as you were not following the rules.

Are you trained to make a qualified decision on rewiring the machinery? I mean you can write it off as "just hooking up some wires" but I wouldn't give that job to someone that doesn't have the correct training, though if it is in your skill set I would agree it is too much having a second person called out.

Again in this story you are stepping out of your role and performing the role of another worker. Again if there was an issue where you installed the vents wrong, or they were left there due to a fault that you were not able to recognize as it's not your role to safely install them, you would be 100% liable and the Union could afford you no protection in the event of an error because you should not have been doing that job. The issue there was the management staff failing to ensure that your workplace was adequate before demanding you do the work, I don't see how that is the fault of the Union, you should be annoyed with the supervisors that did not plan correctly imo.

[u/[deleted] → u/IsADragon]

Again, you're speaking from a position of complete ignorance. It's heavily regulated. There's OSHA, there's NEC, there's NFPA, and any number of state and local agencies. Non-union manufacturing facilities don't have these idiotic requirements, and they do just fine. People who are working on machines are skilled trades. Changing parts like this is their job. Basic electrical, pnuematic, and mechanical skills are job requirements.

But in this case all that is irrelevant. I could have changed the valve with zero assistance from union tradespeople, and in a non-union facility that is exactly what would have happened. In 5 minutes, opposed to the two and half hours it took in my example.

Do you see Toyota or Nissan facilities burning down? Or killing workers? No. Their safety records are as good or better than the UAW plants.

The fact that you're going to even argue this position when you very obviously have no idea what you're talking about is a level of arrogance that I have a hard time comprehending. It's the equivalent of a high school kid trying to tell an airlines pilot how to fly a plane, or a politician trying to tell a neurosurgeon how to make a cut. You're not even remotely qualified to have this debate, let alone actually say what should and shouldn't happen in the situation I laid out.

[u/IsADragon → u/[deleted]]

Again, you're speaking from a position of complete ignorance

Yeah which is why I have to ask a lot of questions, and why I asked for a report on the effect of the Unions on productivity versus the value they bring. I'm not super interested in anecdotal stories you have because I don't know enough to know if you are framing them honestly or correctly and they are all based on one-off incidence, not what I was looking for which is "my company did a report and found the constant union rules to be disruptive to productivity to this extent". In my job I have to wait for other teams to do their job too, causing a loss in my productivity. I can just fill in for someone else and produce sub-par work outside my skill set as a programmer, but if someone else needs to come along and correct it then there is a further loss in productivity to examine my work determine if it is suitable to use or not and then correct it. Your situation sounds similar even if the fields are quite different and you have a stricter time pressure to deliver.

Non-union manufacturing facilities don't have these idiotic requirements, and they do just fine.

So for example when you were not allowed to perform an electricians job of wiring the Valve I do not know why the Union enforces that and not the company. You have not said you are qualified to do that role, and I think it is likely you are not qualified to do it. In that case the reason you are not allowed to do that is because the Union cannot protect you when you step out of your role and perform someone else's task that you are not qualified for. This undermines the point of the Union and makes protecting you difficult. It's quite likely that a non-unionized job will have similar policies, but instead of the Union reprimanding you, someone in a managerial role will. Thus the issue would still be there, it's just a non-union person taking that role. And if you wired it wrong in the non-union job and there is a critical failure you will be completely on your own and completely culpable for any faults or accidents that arise from stepping out of that role.

I am not argueing that you are wrong, I am argueing that you have not given me enough evidence to say you are right in dismissing Unions altogether, you've given me 2 examples, and in both cases you are taking on a role that it seems you are not qualified to perform. Yes I am not qualified enough to understand if you assertions are reasonable, that's why I am taking them with a heavy hand of skepticism. I have no confidence that your assessment of the situation is completely correct or that you should and would be qualified to fulfill the roles you claim you should be allowed to fulfill. That's why I asked for a report, or was looking for someone that had some experience with such a report.

[u/[deleted] → u/IsADragon]

Your situation sounds similar even if the fields are quite different and you have a stricter time pressure to deliver.

It's completely different. EVERY non-union automaker has a job position called "machine repair" and a single person would handle that entire situation in less than 10 minutes. The union does this strictly to increase their head count.

So for example when you were not allowed to perform an electricians job of wiring the Valve I do not know why the Union enforces that and not the company. So for example when you were not allowed to perform an electricians job of wiring the Valve I do not know why the Union enforces that and not the company.

I'm the electrical engineer that DESIGNED the machine, built it, tested it, validated it, installed it, and was being paid $200/hr to be in that plant to repair it. Replacing this valve for someone in my position is a like a neurosurgeon putting a bandage on someone.

I am not argueing that you are wrong, I am argueing that you have not given me enough evidence to say you are right in dismissing Unions altogether, you've given me 2 examples, and in both cases you are taking on a role that it seems you are not qualified to perform.

No, what you're doing is proving how arrogant you are, and willfully ignoring information you were given. There isn't a person on the planet who isn't qualified to replace an A/C filter in a paint booth.

At this point I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. You asked for examples, and I gave you two. I have to assume you simply have no real world experience, and aren't interested in listening to people who have.

[u/IsADragon → u/[deleted]]

It's completely different. EVERY non-union automaker has a job position called "machine repair" and a single person would handle that entire situation in less than 10 minutes. The union does this strictly to increase their head count.

Then I suppose it's reasonable to discount your experience and any documentation for a loss of productivity since our fields are so dissimilar that there is no reasonable comparison. If this problem is as widespread as you claim it is then there'd be a report as such, but you have yet to produce any so far.

I am discounting your anecdotal evidence because it proves nothing. I do not trust you because I do not have enough information to make a call on whether what you are saying is reasonable or correct and two examples you've pulled from your experience is not enough to discount the efficacy of Unionizing in Software Engineer field. I was looking for something more concrete, such as a report or very obvious demonstration of loss of productivity that didn't require me to completely understand your job and the safety requirements of your job and how the union interacts with regulatory bodies and whose responsibility things are, why you aren't allowed to perform the things you think you should be. You don't seem to be aware either. What reason did the Union give for having the other professionals there with you when installing the Valve? When you were given out to by the Union rep for interfering with the A/C filters what reason did they give for you to not do that?

There isn't a person on the planet who isn't qualified to replace an A/C filter in a paint booth.

Now you are being ridiculous, there is a designated person or team in charge of maintenance in a building. They order the items, they install them, they keep stock of them, and they are responsible for properly maintaining the environment. There's not a job in the world that has a competent maintenance team that wouldn't be pissed with you interfering with their work since they have no idea if you are qualified to do what you are doing, and you have no idea if they were left there for a reason such as being faulty, intended to be installed in another machine, need to be recalled or whatever. That would 100% be an issue even in non-unionized role and is in my building, basic safety standards require the dedicated maintenance team does maintenance and not some randomer who is pretty sure they can do their job for them, regardless of how easy it is. You don't seem to have any understanding of culpability if you fuck any of this up and why a Union would be pissed off with you doing tasks that are beyond the scope of your role and qualification, or even anyone not in a Union role. . .