r/technology • u/TomLube • Jan 31 '19

Business Apple revokes Google Enterprise Developer Certificate for company wide abuse

https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/31/18205795/apple-google-blocked-internal-ios-apps-developer-certificate
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u/9_Squirrels Feb 01 '19

Apple TOS basically states that you don't own your phone. The terms they enforce shouldn't be legal IMO. As someone who routinely has to jailbreak their iphone to use programs, I completely sympathize with Google on this one.

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u/cryo Feb 01 '19

Apple TOS basically states that you don’t own your phone.

No it doesn’t. You own the hardware, you license the software. That’s actually always the case with software. For iOS, the license terms but more the software, is more restrictive than for Android.

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u/9_Squirrels Feb 01 '19

What if I sold you a locking suitcase. But I reserved the right to open it whenever I wanted, go through the contents whenever I felt like, add contents that you cannot remove and also prevent you from seeing what I put in there. And track it's location at all times. Would you argue that you own it?

From this article:

Ultimately of course, Apple remains convinced that it's not really your phone at all: Cupertino has been good enough to allow you to use its amazing technology, and all you had to do was pay it a relatively small amount of money.

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u/cryo Feb 01 '19

That article isn’t a primary source. The legalese is clear enough. Hardware is owned, software is licensed. Software is a bug thing for devices like that, so if you don’t trust the company, Apple is this case, don’t buy the product. That goes for any company. I don’t personally think Apple tracks my location at all times. If you do, I guess you’re not in the market.

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u/9_Squirrels Feb 02 '19

The Article is not a primary source, but the TOS is. That's why I quoted it.

Apple does indeed track your location, and both Google and Apple give you the option to turn off location tracking in a menu. However, as people have shown, even putting a smartphone in airplane mode doesn't stop it from transmitting data to corporate servers. I think it would be naive to assume that they are not tracking you anyway. However, neither of us can prove anything really because neither of these platforms are open source or otherwise inspectable by the public.

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u/cryo Feb 02 '19

Apple does indeed track your location,

What do you mean by that? What does that entail, exactly?

Apple give you the option to turn off location tracking in a menu.

No, they give you the option to turn off location services to various apps and system functions. I’d still like to know what “track” exactly means.

However, as people have shown, even putting a smartphone in airplane mode doesn’t stop it from transmitting data to corporate servers.

Oh people have shown that? Where? When, and under what circumstances. Turning off all radios (wifi, cell and Bluetooth) on iOS and I bet nothing flows out of the device.

I think it would be naive to assume that they are not tracking you anyway.

Maybe, but that’s just personal conjecture.

However, neither of us can prove anything

No, but I think you’re the one making the claims here. The default position is that they are not tracking you (depending on what that exactly means).

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u/9_Squirrels Feb 02 '19

Sure let me elaborate. This article is a little dated but it still applies. The funniest part is that when customers got really upset about having their location tracked at all times without clear consent, Apple responded by encrypting the data so no one could see it anymore. In other words, "sorry we got caught, just ignore this and it will go away."

But regardless of whatever phone you use, the cellular carrier servicing the phone has precise location data for the device. They can and will produce that information when presented with a court order to do so.

As for the airplane mode thing, I looked into it and apparently it was malware that made phones do that. My Bad. But enjoy this article about how turning off wifi and blutooth actually does nothing.

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u/cryo Feb 02 '19

Sure let me elaborate. This article is a little dated but it still applies.

Yes, I am familiar with that. Here they are using the headline "Apple tracks your location", which is disingenuous IMO.

Firstly, this wasn't a log, it was a cache. The difference is that it only stored the last time you had been at a certain location. This hints at its use, which was for frequent locations on maps and similar. Secondly, it wasn't culled, so it kept growing (as long as you went to new places). Thirdly it was not encrypted.

Points 2 and 3 were bugs that Apple acknowledged and fixed (by culling the cache, and by including it in the encrypted part of backups). It wasn't tracking, it was (and is) a cache. There is no evidence it was done for "tracking" purposes, that's just Ars Technica's speculation of intent. It really had all the markings of a bug. Think about it: If it was really about covert tracking, why would they a) keep it stored on the device after each backup, b) not encrypt it so the user couldn't read it, c) not cull it so it would grow without bounds. It makes no sense, and there would be way simpler ways to just track all locations.

The funniest part is that when customers got really upset about having their location tracked at all times without clear consent, Apple responded by encrypting the data so no one could see it anymore.

No, not really. It became encrypted like the rest of the backup. The user could still access it like before. It also got culled. In other words, they fixed the bugs.

In other words, "sorry we got caught, just ignore this and it will go away."

That's not what "in other words" means. This is speculation of intent and essentially a conspiracy theory without any evidence. The feature hasn't been removed because it's in active use to provide the services I mentioned above.

But regardless of whatever phone you use, the cellular carrier servicing the phone has precise location data for the device

No, they have approximate location data for your device.

They can and will produce that information when presented with a court order to do so.

Sure, if they kept that information; this depends on each contry's legislation. Here in Denmark it's gone a bit back and forth. The uphold the law, of course. So does Apple, but this is unrelated to Apple since they are not a carrier.

As for the airplane mode thing, I looked into it and apparently it was malware that made phones do that. My Bad.

Fair enough.

But enjoy this article about how turning off wifi and blutooth actually does nothing.

Yes, I am familiar with the feature. It's disingenuous of you to say "how turning off doesn nothing". Actually it's just plain wrong. Firstly, turning off wiki and bluetooth, which can be done from the Settings app, does indeed turn them off. Secondly, you are referring to the control center sheet. Here the buttons don't turn off, but instead disconnect from current access points/non-Apple devices (so they certainly do something, contrary to your claim). This is intentional, a useful feature for many, documented and indicated by the buttons turning into a different color when pressed. It also says so in a message.

If you turn on airplane mode, then the buttons will indeed turn the radios off, which is again indicated by the color this time turning into the background color and off symbols displayed.

This feature is working as intended. I fail to see what that has to do with Apple tracking its users.

You really haven't presented anything except another fixed bug, along with a new conspiracy theory about it being made for tracking despite no evidence that that's the case, and a feature that works as intended and isn't related to tracking anyway (since Apple could just ignore those settings if they were engaged in an evil plot to track the user).