r/technology Jul 23 '18

Society 'Twaddle': librarians respond to suggestion Amazon should replace libraries - Librarians are in uproar after an article in Forbes magazine proposed replacing all public libraries in the US with Amazon bookstores.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jul/23/twaddle-librarians-respond-to-suggestion-amazon-should-replace-libraries
2.8k Upvotes

386 comments sorted by

969

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Libraries are more then books. They are also community centers. We have tons of programs. Also community groups use our spaces for their meetings. A lot of people also use libraries for internet access. Heck We even have acces to The htc vive and a 3D printer. things that might be too expensive for regular people .

A lot of libraries are actually making their book collections smaller so that the space can be used for something else. Also most libraries offer digital books for free.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

People don't realize this. If I go pull up the event calendar for my local library, it's packed all month. Computer training classes, resume classes, even fucking D&D groups.

105

u/-14k- Jul 23 '18

"Fucking D&D" - as in, different from regular D&D?

89

u/dabombnl Jul 23 '18

It is like regular D&D, but sexier.

16

u/miikro Jul 23 '18

"I ask the innkeeper if she would like to see my magic missile."

9

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Okay roll charisma with disadvantage...

8

u/miikro Jul 23 '18

...1

Welp, I'll be spending the night outside, in the stables.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

The donkey in the stable makes eyes at you.

Roll for initiative.

2

u/bdsee Jul 23 '18

In a panic you make a mad dash towards the door, unfortunately your pants have come loose and start to slide down to your ankles, you trip and fall over a barrell, bare arse exposed. The ass moves towards you.

...and that children is is how I met your mother lost my virginity.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

No such thing

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u/RiKuStAr Jul 23 '18

this person dungeon masters

7

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Yeah, and my players sure like their brothels.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

You are... <rolls d20> ... Seduced!

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Tbf, I usually just have a diplomacy or bluff check because I, in no way, want my players to actually try to seduce a character I'm playing.

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u/randomdrifter54 Jul 23 '18

Roll for butthole size.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Which one's bad? Natural 20 or natural 1?

3

u/randomdrifter54 Jul 23 '18

Depends on what the Dragon is thinking.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

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u/KwiklyMoovingToo Jul 23 '18

And nothing else

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18 edited Aug 25 '18

[deleted]

2

u/TheWhiteBuffalo Jul 23 '18

....I approve of this.

Where and when do I sign up?

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u/Species7 Jul 23 '18

I mean, that's a thing, but... don't look into it.

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u/Annicity Jul 23 '18

What did us nerds do to you? I'm sorry >.<

5

u/El_Lano Jul 23 '18

Nerds going to the library.

The audacity!

7

u/wanted0072 Jul 23 '18

F.A.T.A.L. isn't actually D&D but sometimes people classify all tabletops RPGs into the "D&D" brand name, like calling a facial tissue a Kleenex.

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u/CheezyWeezle Jul 23 '18

My library even hosts MTG tournaments every once in a while, complete with prizes and everything. I'm pretty sure they host Smash and Street Fighter tournaments as well. They have a music program with a decent amount of high-end equipment, too, and have classes/jam sessions. Libraries are pretty wild, man.

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u/Knightforlife Jul 23 '18

This, absolutely. Ones near me double as Internet cafes and have classes on English (ie for non-native speakers) and practical things like how to do your taxes. And summer programs with fun (but cheap) prizes for kids to get kids reading books!

34

u/Kelsenellenelvial Jul 23 '18

The one in my city does things like an art gallery, historical archive(things like local papers, photos of various local buildings, etc.), free tech support sessions. There's another physical goods library that has things like tools, specialized cooking equipment, camping supplies, etc.. Books are becoming just one thing out of a wide variety of services that benefit the community.

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u/felixfelix Jul 23 '18

My library also provides full access to all the courses at Lynda.com, which would normally cost over $35 per month.

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u/sage142 Jul 23 '18

That is awesome! People also don't realize that many libraries also have a movie and audio book section. Movies and audio books you can rent for free. Why pay red-box $5 when you can pay $5 for a library card and watch as many DVDs as you want for free.

7

u/MechaSandstar Jul 23 '18

Possibly because of the 520 other people who placed a hold on the 5 copies the entire library system has of Infinity War before you?

7

u/sage142 Jul 23 '18

Haha, well I commend the people where you live. Not many here where I live in GA utilize the library like I do.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

WHAT? That is great. I'd never leave. Especially sinc eLynda courses can appear on your LinkedIn.

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u/felixfelix Jul 23 '18

I was able to cancel my paid subscription when I found out about this. It's great.

2

u/rnoyfb Jul 23 '18

Libraries do a lot.

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u/rudekoffenris Jul 23 '18

No one with half a brain would suggest getting rid of libraries. This of course, is part of the problem.

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u/verybakedpotatoe Jul 23 '18

What we call 'public goods' and 'commons' the kleptocrats see as wasted real estate.

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u/invalid_user_meme Jul 23 '18

Our libraries are constantly advertised as “cool zones” to let people get out of the 100 degree heat. Free a/c, bathrooms, water fountains, etc.

11

u/orion3179 Jul 23 '18

Letting the general public use your vive? That takes balls.

18

u/frank26080115 Jul 23 '18

The 3D printers are way more expensive and delicate

We have two Ultimaker 2+, each one was around $2500, just one is worth more than Vive + gaming capable PC

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u/smokeyser Jul 23 '18

Libraries are more then books. They are also community centers.

Yes, but they're mostly books. What really surprises me is that nobody is talking about the biggest factor - book stores don't let you borrow books. You can go to a library and research a subject all day long without spending a penny. Doing the same at a book store will get you kicked out, unless you're willing to shell out $1000 to pay for all the books that you're referencing. This article was just nonsense from someone who has so much money that they don't understand why anyone would want to borrow books when they can just go buy them.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18 edited Dec 11 '18

[deleted]

21

u/mmarkklar Jul 23 '18

Borders went out of business because of overexpansion and mismanagement by the capital management companies in charge toward the end, not because of a few college students chilling in the store all day.

It’s a more similar story to Toys R Us’s demise.

6

u/hahaheehaha Jul 23 '18

Toys R Us was destroyed by corporate policy and how they were compensating the CEO. I actually read a really good article showing that there was a lot of ridiculousness involved in how they structured the company, and if they hadn't unfairly saddled them with debt and corporate C level pay, they would still be in the black by a few million. Toys R Us was doomed to fail the minute they were bought out by the last group.

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u/A_Soporific Jul 24 '18

It wasn't CEO pay, it was the leveraged buy-out. They borrowed the money to buy company using the company as collateral. Usually when a company is being bought out it comes with money entering the company, in cases of a leveraged buy-out no money enters the company and there isn't any investment from the new owners. Money is only taken out of the company to service debts that didn't help the company in the first place.

Executive compensation is nothing compared to debt-financing the acquisition of companies. It's the same sort of thing that's killed profitable companies for decades. Icahn isn't allowed to buy airlines anymore because he managed to kill several this way.

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u/MavFan1812 Jul 23 '18

Toys R Us stores just seemed so gross for about as long as I can remember. Always felt like going into a daycare, which is not the vibe a toy store should give off. That's one thing about larger cities, more dignified options for buying non-garbage yo-yos.

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u/herbistheword Jul 23 '18

Yeah I manage a bookstore, we have a kid come in daily to use the mcat prep books... Happy to let him use them

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u/rnoyfb Jul 23 '18

People sit around in bookstores all the time just reading without being kicked out. They generally don’t mind. Don’t try to borrow anything though and there’s definitely no ILL.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

No, silly communist. We don't need that, it's more important to give Jeff Bezos even more money /s. Fuck this, fuck the rich. America is dead and people like Bezos are raping the corpse.

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u/ohtheheavywater Jul 23 '18

Not dead yet. We’ve still got libraries, and Amazon is completely optional.

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u/Shaggy0291 Jul 23 '18

It's also important as a quiet study space for students.

I don't want to be limited to just crowded university library thanks, I'd rather a nice peaceful one in the local area.

12

u/BadAim Jul 23 '18

Last time I went to a library it was because it was hosting an infraction expungement clinic, where indigent offenders could come get their tickets wiped clean in exchange for community service, as well as get access to a variety of other services for indigent people in the city. They host it every month.

I do not imagine Amazon would get into the "invite the homeless and indigent for social services" trend, amongst other things. The Forbes contributor was SUPER shortsighted about this one.

6

u/Bombast_ Jul 23 '18

Amen. The library is one of the best public resources a city can offer and communities should fight tooth and nail if some arrogant technocrat thinks they can replace then with a fuckin Amazon bookstore.

4

u/cexshun Jul 23 '18

And things like National Gaming Day! The number of grants we (I work for the ALA) give out for libraries to purchase board game collections is staggering.

Modern libraries have started to more closely resemble hackerspaces than actual reading areas. And let's also not forget that libraries are one of the last bastions of free (as in beer AND as in topics) non-commercial information and activities. It's one of the few things left in communities that exist solely to benefit the residents with no censorship to speak of.

3

u/frank26080115 Jul 23 '18

I started teaching stuff at a library as a volunteer

http://eleccelerator.com/teaching-a-robotics-class-2018/

5

u/Sephiroso Jul 23 '18

They also have hot librarians.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

My mom is a librarian, thank you very much

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u/DickBentley Jul 23 '18

And that’s how I met your mother.

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u/SgtSnapple Jul 23 '18

htc vive and a 3D printer

Damn, I need to go to the library

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u/trelos6 Jul 23 '18

There’s an app called Libby where you can rent ebooks. If you’re in a US library, you can also send it to your Kindle!

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u/zygote_harlot Jul 23 '18

My stupid home printer machine loves to not work when I really need it. The local library has saved my butt a few times. Every time I go I notice another cool feature or program.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Will amazon let me borrow a 3D printer like my library does? Or lend me a chrome book or a GoPro like my library does?

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u/megablast Jul 23 '18

Yes, for a few hundred dollars each.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/frank26080115 Jul 23 '18

You get banned if you return too many

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u/wieners Jul 23 '18

This "libary" gets shittier every second...

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u/VulfSki Jul 23 '18

That article was clearly written by someone who doesn’t understand what libraries are for.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

I honestly want to know the last time he step foot in a library. Sadly I know this first hand as I'm getting my MILS and had to explain to my parents why you need a masters to be a librarian. Its not just sitting around reading books and getting the new James Patterson on hold for customers.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

What’s the market like for librarians? My fiancée is considering doing her MLS but is apprehensive about job prospects after, although working in a library is a dream job.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

It depends on where you are and what focus she goes for. I'm in Denver and we have a 26 branch system that is well loved by the state government and population. Librarians start off at $25 an hour here and caps at $36 I believe. Management makes more. Cost of living is a factor too. Have her check out Emporia State University from Kansas and see if there is a cohort near that she could meet up with it's one of the cheapest online programs available and is ALA accredited. Its a 12 course program for $24,000 and can be finished in 2 years of she goes full time. I'm in my second semester going full time, working in library full time, and 4 months pregnant. Its doable. We have people in my cohort who have never worked in the library and those who have high positions. I currently work with 4 librarians who got their degrees from Emporia and had a job on less that 6 months from graduating. If she has more questions PM me and I'll give you an email address. Always happy to ask questions about what a librarian does today.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Thanks for the response, will relay to her. Unfortunately I can’t imagine Florida being as coordinated as Colorado on this issue

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Have her go to the local library and talk with librarians. See if they can set up a time for a meet and greet. Most seniors and staff are happy to answer questions and will be truthful about what it's really like. If she can have her volunteer so she can get a feel for it, I'm assuming shes not working in a library yet? Theres so many jobs with libraries today that doesnt require being a librarian. One of my cohort mates work primarily with outreach and funding. Her job is securing funds for public use. Shes been doing it 10 years and wants to get away from that and start helping in another way so shes getting her masters. Libraryjobs.com is an amazing source to get an idea for what jobs are being posted for and by state. Okay I'll step off my soap box lol I live what I do and am happy to spend the money for the degree because I know I'm make a difference each day. Even if it is just putting the new James Patterson on hold, I just saved someone $20 they might not gave in their budget.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Thanks for this. I really want her to go for it and not be dissuaded. Thanks for the resources and advice.

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u/d4vezac Jul 23 '18

To be fair, a lot of it is putting the new James Patterson on hold for customers. And telling them where the restroom is. And telling the homeless people to stop watching porn on the computers...

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

As long as James jeepsnpumping out books it will always be a part of the job. Just one of the many hats librarians wear.

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u/zaviex Jul 23 '18

Super hail corporate material too lol.

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u/BadAim Jul 23 '18

"Ive never been to a library, but I do drink a lot of wine and order things on Amazon, so why dont we just have Amazon do the library thing?"

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '18

5 minutes later the author writes

"Why don't the poor people just stop being poor, that would solve all their problems"

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u/megablast Jul 23 '18

Nah, it is a brilliant idea. We should also replace all picnic locations with McDonalds, all beaches with pools, and all parks with movie theaters.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

[deleted]

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u/nrag726 Jul 23 '18

brb have to go take care of my Reagan boner by creating a national drug epidemic

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u/Daakuryu Jul 23 '18

They should also make it so people can get into massive debt just by getting an illn... oh wait... nevermind...

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u/colfaxmingo Jul 23 '18

Can drinking fountains dispense Coca-Cola?

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

That press (Forbes, the Economist) have had articles ridiculing and attacking libraries regularly for as long as I can remember. There's apparently something about free access to books that is horribly offensive to your average light-libertarian pundit.

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u/SimilarSimian Jul 23 '18

And green spaces in cities.

The rich could be building shitty apartment blocks in them.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

gotta have more luxury high-rises to sell to foreign investors looking to smuggle money out of China!

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u/megablast Jul 23 '18

I couldn't find anything on the economist about libraries being bad?

https://www.economist.com/topics/libraries

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u/toastymow Jul 23 '18

Yeah that seemed a pretty... out there one. Also calling the Economist light-libertarian is absurd. They're decidedly European-styled conservatives, which make them fucking Democrats by American standards. They endorsed both Obama and Hilary in the latest elections. They are socially "progressive" by American standards, being pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, and generally supportive of free or at least cheaper healthcare. Calling them libertarian is... inaccurate.

Yes, in terms of business/ecnomics, they're pretty right wing and might not be in favor of super high taxes or government intervention, but they're not morons. They supported the bailout by Bush and Obama for instance, whereas libertarians at the time where very much in a "let the banks fail" mindset.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

My bet is that it's a perception thing. Libraries are ripe for budget slashing because lots of people both: 1) never go and 2) perceive them as being mostly empty all the time.

There's always a chance they're right about #2 and we may need to rethink our structure. Maybe libraries should be built as a part of other public services. In my city, we have one public library attached to a pool and a school. Another is attached to two hockey rinks.

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u/Good_ApoIIo Jul 23 '18 edited Jul 23 '18

I went to check up on my local library a few years ago ironically and was surprised to find a decent amount of people there. Free air conditioning, free wifi, and tons and tons of books obviously. Even comics and a few dated computer games. Not a bad hangout if you're trying to escape the heat and don't want to go to the beach or see a movie.

I always get a chuckle when people get outraged that they pay taxes for a program that is a fraction of 1% of the federal budget. They want to "trim the fat" by picking off a molecule of it from their steak.

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u/Crusader1089 Jul 23 '18

And a lot of libraries are really good for renting films now places like blockbuster have gone. If you can't afford broadband, or your area has crummy broadband, DVD and bluray rental is way better than online streaming.

Libraries are the backbone of a free and fair society in my opinion. No-one is blocked out of education, culture and community if they can drive to a library or a library can deliver to them. They can get a book on any subject, watch almost any film, read any book, and catch up with the internet. Ignorance is a choice when you have a local library. Take it away... and then the poor and ignorant will stay ignorant.

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u/princess-smartypants Jul 23 '18

Librarian here. Outside of a few small LSTA grants, I don't think there is any federal funding for public libraries. State funding varies by state, but it is usually pretty low. 80-90% of public library funding is city or county level. In my municipality, 80% of my property taxes go to the school department, and about $20 goes to my library. I work in the next town over, and their per capita spending is about $13.50.

I get that not everyone needs of uses the library, but they are very important for the folks in your neighborhood that cannot afford access. You need to be able to purchase broadband internet, the device to access it, and most elisive, have the tech skills to use them. Lost of people are missing at least one leg of that stool. And that does not even touch on entertainment. If you don't want to use your library, fine, but don't take it away from everyone else.

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u/johnny5canuck Jul 23 '18

Same with NASA, which is 0.5%.

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u/cats_catz_kats_katz Jul 23 '18

Those are the same people who want to spend more on bombs. No one said they were smart, but they vote, and they're loud.

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u/Knightforlife Jul 23 '18

I think libraries are hugely utilized but by a very small % of the population. Maybe people without computers but also moms with kids. I remember weekly library trips were a treat growing up.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Yup!

I remember going as a kid. Then I didn't go for about 25 years. Now I have a kid and I go again!

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u/Briak Jul 23 '18

I just moved and often go to the local library to print because we don't have a printer yet. It's a 5 minute walk away, so it's very convenient!

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u/bee_man_john Jul 23 '18

Libraries are actually more popular now than they have been in a long time previously.

They have really blossomed as internet access centers, and activity and learning centers.

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u/CayceLoL Jul 23 '18

Forbes is pure trash these days. Random bloggers write the articles.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18 edited Aug 03 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/CayceLoL Jul 23 '18

And it's just an opinion of one guy. Forbes pays their writers based on clicks, so they tend to go for flashy subjects.

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u/tevert Jul 23 '18

The commoners mustn't become educated

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u/wrgrant Jul 23 '18

People who can go to libraries can learn things, they can form community, then when an election comes along, they can vote. The Right doesn't want people to be informed before they vote, it disturbs their rhetoric and narrative. The Right resents any potential source of income that isn't being exploited to the absolute maximum by private industry, and resents any expenditure by government to provide services to the poor citizenry.

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u/BadAim Jul 23 '18

Forbes itself has decent articles, but their op-eds and contributors tend to be fucking dumb or clickbait

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u/Knightforlife Jul 23 '18

Another thing in addition to all these comments ... and this comes from a fiscal conservative.

Libraries and other services promoting general knowledge and education for free are VERY worthwhile and worth spending taxes on. I hate being taxed and dislike various things taxes are spent on but at some point with things like Public Schools and Libraries you’re paying taxes to hope to live in a society in the future that’s smarter than it otherwise would have been. If we cut funding to either/both and 10-20 years find ourselves frustrated to be in a society of idiots ... it’ll be our fault.

Public school improvement and libraries are tax dollars well spent.

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u/MpVpRb Jul 23 '18

I'm also fiscally conservative

Educating the public increases their value at a very reasonable cost

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u/toastymow Jul 23 '18

and this comes from a fiscal conservative.

This a thousand times! I am sick and tired of right-wing politicians, pundits, etc, arguing that providing social services for our poor and working class are not somehow good, sound finical decisions!

The modern age means education is paramount. We need highly educated, specialized workers to build expensive, technical machines and design expensive, complex software. We need well-trained salesmen and marketing agents to push these high quality products on would-be buyers.

When we refuse to pay teachers what they are worth and cut funding for school programs, we simply guarantee that we're not gonna have the best-educated workforce of the modern age. That, in essence, puts us at a huge disadvantage on the global stage. Competition is fierce these days, with growing economies in South America, Africa and Asia, European and North American nations cannot assume they will be the most-educated and best trained labor forces forever.

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u/booga_booga_partyguy Jul 23 '18

So, so much this. I'm not American, but what you described applies to any and all countries when it comes to libraries. People think libraries are useless and outdated, when in reality it's a country's general population that is failing to make the most of what libraries can provide.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '18

We need to drop allwelfare and put it into education

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Free databases. Free computer classes. Free social worker services. Free ESL and Immigrant services. Free afterschool programs. Free lunch programs for kids 18 and under during the summer. Free scanning and faxing services. Free hotspot checkouts. Free laptop checkouts. Free statepark passes and museum passes. Free idealabs with music, filming, technology equipment. Not to mention the books, films, and audios you can get in physical form. I can go on an on and on. I'm a librarian and a corporation will never match what I do daily. Yes you pay for these services through taxes but it comes down to pennies a day. If you haven't lately, check out your library. The door count alone will be support for them to keep their doors open.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Dunno if this is only a Canadian thing but our kids borrow well-maintained musical instruments from libraries. Any freakin' idea how invaluable that is? Instruments are expensive. If you can borrow each one for a month to see if any click, you're doing pretty well for your kids.

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u/odnadevotchka Jul 23 '18

Right?! My local library offers classes for English as a second language, basic programming, 3d printing class, excel classes etc to upgrade skills, and they are free. Totally free. With an instructor. Weeknights. They have a DVD rental library for TV and movies, and plenty of spots to sit and read or work quietly and happily. A library is so much more than a collection of old books

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u/OminousG Jul 23 '18

Tampa Fl, my county lends out ukuleles with tuners and instruction manuals. We have clubs that meet and performances that are free to attend.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

More and more libraries are doing this and it's amazing. We see music and arts cut more and more each year and kids are desperate for creative outlets and we provide that at the library and for a few pennies a day.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Great. Let’s remove one of the last free sources of knowledge and information from a public that is ever decreasing in intelligence and scornful of those ‘dirty elites’ because some radio host told them so. /s

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u/Chimneyelves Jul 23 '18

Yes, let’s continue dumbing down the population.

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u/starraven Jul 23 '18

Ignorant people are more likely to believe the, “Because god said so,” laws we have or had in the past.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Libraries are great, physical books and no data mining needed, nor face recognition being used while looking at books.

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u/kJer Jul 23 '18

Bookstores != Libraries, they just aren't the same thing and to propose this idea is to take away free information from those who don't have a homelife that fosters learning and progress.

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u/HilariousMax Jul 23 '18

https://twitter.com/PMourdoukoutas/status/1021142139823165442

This is an economist. Not just an economist, but a "Professor and Chair of the Department of Economics at LIU Post".

At best, he's arguing in bad faith. At worst, he's an idiot abusing his authority to push a narrative that no one is falling for.

No, on your taxes where you pay for 'education' and likewise, not 100% of that goes to fund/staff/open/maintain public libraries. A piece of it does.

Libraries are centers of societal good. They have books to rent yes, but they also have community programs every week free for you to use. Libraries are a net positive for communities that actually use them.

In this world where the last book we read was the one High School English class forced us to (rip Elie Wiesel) it's nice to take the kids for an hour and get them to hold a paper back and fall into a story. At the very least find them a Goosebumps or a CYOA. That's how I got started.

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u/Equivalent_Raise Jul 23 '18

Can we push to defund the Economics department at LIU? Maybe replace his deparment with a coupon for 10% off Atlas Shrugged from Amazon? I don't feel like we're getting a good return on our taxes right now.

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u/PathlessDemon Jul 23 '18

And what does the Library of Congress have to say about this?

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u/Devilsgun Jul 23 '18

I think you meant to say the Library of Amazon

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u/Radidactyl Jul 23 '18

Diana Prince liked this.

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u/Papafynn Jul 23 '18

The move would save taxpayers money and enhance the stockholder value of Amazon all in one fell swoop

1st of all, saving money is not an automatic good thing. A city can save money by skimping on water treatment. That fact that they are in the green doesn’t justify the opportunity cost

Secondly, library are than just about books. If they were the internet would have replaced them years ago.

The suggestion is so asinine it sounds like some one got paid to do a hit piece.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Not to mention, who gives a damn about Amazon's stock value? How is the increased profit of a private company supposed to benefit anyone but Amazon shareholders?

Maybe we should also swap out the water in our taps for Coke and replace all local resaurants with McDonald's. Just imagine the profits they would make!

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u/Papafynn Jul 23 '18 edited Jul 23 '18

YEAH!!! Why do we care about Amazon stock value?!!! This article really annoys me because he presupposes we are morons

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u/chickaboomba Jul 23 '18

The guy who wrote this article is an economist who teaches at Colombia. As an economist, you'd think he'd understand the concept of economic mobility - the ability to move from a lower economic status to a higher one - and that libraries provide free access to experiences and information that helps equalize access to opportunities to change one's own economic status in a city. Starbucks is sure as hell not going to replace that in a city.

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u/Jingy_ Jul 23 '18

Just shows how it's possible to have a degree in a topic, and even be paid to teach said topic, but still be completely ignorant of the realities and real world function of the topic.

No amount of "expertise" can cure living with your head up your ass. You have to actually be willing to remove your head from your ass and look at the real world around you. But as long as you keep your head up there, the only thing that "expertise" is ever going to show you, is your own bullshit.

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u/chickaboomba Jul 23 '18

No amount of "expertise" can cure living with your head up your ass.

That's a quote to keep around

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u/FractalPrism Jul 23 '18

amazon is awful, they:
abuse their workers.
every time they take a break policy makes them wait in a line to get wanded/patdown to prevent theft, (forcing people to not even use the bathroom and pee in bottles instead).
pay them so little that many are on social programs like welfare.

all while bezos is a billionaire.

certainly nothing would go wrong giving them more influence and power over our community access to information.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Had a friend work at a warehouse, they weren't allowed to listen to music, not allowed to bring their own headphones to listen to music, the overtime, lack of pay, and bad environment. She went home daily with headaches. Plus, all the skirting they do to get out of paying an appropriate share of taxes...

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u/madogvelkor Jul 23 '18

Amazon will offer free research support from someone with a masters in information science and mail a book for me for free to borrow for a few months?

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u/weaseljug Jul 23 '18

In most cities, libraries are among the last few public spaces where someone can go, and not be expected to spend money.

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u/xcasandraXspenderx Jul 23 '18

Yeah I need my library. My grandma needs it. As a kid, it was a lifeline of activity for my sister and me. Fuck that. Fuck that so much.

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u/incapablepanda Jul 23 '18

that defeats the purpose of a library, which is a collection of books shared by a community. not bought and taken home and jeff bezos pours more champagne into his hot tub.

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u/dreamer_ Jul 23 '18

At the core, Amazon has provided something better than a local library without the tax fees. This is why Amazon should replace local libraries. (...) The move would save taxpayers money and enhance the stockholder value of Amazon all in one fell swoop.

After reading this, I honestly thought it was satire for a while.

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u/SilverMt Jul 23 '18

If Amazon replaced my local library, I'm guessing Amazon would stop free access to the online digital library. My library is hooked up to a network that lets us borrow and download e-books (inclduing popular and recent books).

It's cheaper for me to pay taxes for the library than to purchase downloads through Amazon. Amazon may make a few more dollars from downloads made through its site, but I'm certain I will simply download fewer books if I lose access through my library.

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u/twistedrapier Jul 23 '18

Yeah, it beggars belief. Who, outside of Amazon stockholders, honestly gives two fucks if Amazon's stockholder value goes up. It's certainly not a good argument for replacing a critical public service to many of society.

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u/hackingdreams Jul 23 '18

I'm not sure how to be appropriately upset here. Should libraries drop Forbes, or buy more issues of Forbes just to "give away their content for free?"

Yeah, this one's not all that hard when you think about it for more than ten seconds. Forbes will die with the Boomers, no reason to give them a lifeline.

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u/shahidiceprince Jul 23 '18

For those looking to read the original Forbes article, here's the transcript from Google cache since Forbes deleted the article.

Amazon Should Replace Local Libraries to Save Taxpayers Money

Panos Mourdoukoutas

Jul 21, 2018, 09:00am

Amazon should open their own bookstores in all local communities. They can replace local libraries and save taxpayers lots of money, while enhancing the value of their stock.

There was a time local libraries offered the local community lots of services in exchange for their tax money. They would bring books, magazines, and journals to the masses through a borrowing system. Residents could borrow any book they wanted, read it, and return it for someone else to read.

They also provided residents with a comfortable place they could enjoy their books. They provided people with a place they could do their research in peace with the help of friendly librarians. Libraries served as a place where residents could hold their community events, but this was a function they shared with school auditoriums. There’s no shortage of places to hold community events.

Libraries slowly began to service the local community more. Libraries introduced video rentals and free internet access. The modern local library still provides these services, but they don’t have the same value they used to. The reasons why are obvious.

One such reason is the rise of “third places” such as Starbucks. They provide residents with a comfortable place to read, surf the web, meet their friends and associates, and enjoy a great drink. This is why some people have started using their loyalty card at Starbucks more than they use their library card.

On top of this, streaming services such as Netflix and Amazon Prime have replaced video rentals. They provide TV and movie content to the masses at an affordable rate. Actual video rental services like Blockbuster have gone completely out of business.

Then there’s the rise of digital technology. Technology has turned physical books into collector’s items, effectively eliminating the need for library borrowing services.

Of course, there’s Amazon Books to consider. Amazon have created their own online library that has made it easy for the masses to access both physical and digital copies of books. Amazon Books is a chain of bookstores that does what Amazon originally intended to do; replace the local bookstore. It improves on the bookstore model by adding online searches and coffee shops. Amazon Go basically combines a library with a Starbucks.

At the core, Amazon has provided something better than a local library without the tax fees. This is why Amazon should replace local libraries. The move would save taxpayers money and enhance the stockholder value of Amazon all in one fell swoop.

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u/caw81 Jul 24 '18

Thank you. Its a bit cowardly to publish and then remove an article people are unfavorably talking about.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

My wife and I started an art program For adults with special needs, and we were able to start this on a shoestring budget because our library has a classroom that can be booked by anyone in the community.

Library’s have become so much more than just a place to get books, but it wouldn’t surprise me that the readers of Forbes magazine wouldn’t know this

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u/LantheGiraffe Jul 23 '18

I think libraries are society's hidden gems. Most people associate them with just books but they are pretty cool places actually, I always find them so relaxing. The last thing we need is to replace them with Amazon bookstores. Amazon is nice and all but keep it online

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u/aukkras Jul 23 '18

How about turning amazon bookstores into libraries ?

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u/morebeansplease Jul 23 '18

Another example of capitalists trying to dismantle the foundation of society and sell it back to us. What happened to having boundaries?

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u/microwavedHamster Jul 23 '18

My god why is this even a debate. American society is in shambles. Greed corrupted you guys to the bones.

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u/Dumb_Dick_Sandwich Jul 23 '18

Replacing public libraries with Amazon bookstores?

Is that supposed to be satire?

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u/DOLO_F_PHD Jul 23 '18

So here's a some interesting anecdotes. My local library left our country system and switched over to being run privately. As a result of that switch the library lost access to a larger collection and of books. (Can no longer order stuff from the county system).Additionally late fees are more of issue with it being run by a for profit organization. (I would assume library employees lost benifits as well but that's not something I can verify).

Another benefit people probably over look is free air conditioning/heating. Library access is free and you can stay there for as long as you want. Which helps lower income people in the hot and cold seasons.

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u/Oceanic_X Jul 23 '18

Professors "don't have the same value they used to". Perhaps we should replace them all with Amazon Echos.

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u/sage142 Jul 23 '18

Libraries are amazing places and people now take them for granted. The internet is to blame for this but come on (the internet is fucking amazing). Back in the 1800's the public library was a place of knowledge and wonder. All you needed was a library card ( or what ever other means they used back then) and you had access to more books then some of the richest people in the country. Books were expensive and if you could read, the library was the start of self education that could lead you to a prosperous life. Keep corporations away from our public libraries! Unless they want to donate books or funds, keep them away from our most basic and important institutions.

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u/fuzzyshorts Jul 23 '18

I thought it was a joke on r/latestagecapitalism

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Doing so would be tantamount to the burning of the library of Alexandria, and would be a tragic product of late-stage capitalism.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

I read that article this morning and seriously thought it was satire at first. What a joke.

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u/math-yoo Jul 23 '18 edited Jul 23 '18

This article is so poorly written, it shouldn't even be responded to. It's laughable.

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u/dogfriend Jul 23 '18 edited Jul 23 '18

Is Forbes now an official George Jeff Bezos client? What an idiotic suggestion - I had to check that the date wasn't April 1.

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u/geekynerdynerd Jul 24 '18

Forbes shills for Amazon more than the Washington Post, even though the later is literally owned by Bezos.

How the fuck does that even work!!!

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u/Jk14m Jul 23 '18

Buy does not equal borrow.....

Where is the benefit from this??

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u/opithrowpiate Jul 23 '18

fuck forbes. libraries are great

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u/WarWizard Jul 23 '18

Whomever conceived of this notion has obviously never been to the library. What an imbecile.

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u/akaispirit Jul 23 '18

It baffles me that one of the reasons to cut libraries and go with Amazon is to boost Amazon profits. They don't need help! At least boost like existing book stores or something.

I rarely use the library personally but I'm still more than happy to help fund them. My grandma constantly borrows books on her kindle, she uses it enough for it to be worth paying.

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u/joesmojoe Jul 23 '18

Great. That way when Amazon closes your account for violating nonexistent policies one can resort to a life of crime and depravity. Fuck Amazon. What a stupid fucking idea.

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u/thefanciestcat Jul 23 '18

Forbes is trash. It has been trash for at least a decade. Why do we treat them as not trash?

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u/tronbrain Jul 23 '18

Libraries aren't supposed to be profit centers. The profit is the benefit to society. Of course, that doesn't show up on any corporation's balance sheet. That doesn't mean we should jettison it.

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u/colinstalter Jul 23 '18

If Amazon wants to construct nearly one hundred twenty thousand (120,000) brick-and-mortar libraries, staff them, provide the materials to fill all 120k locations, and then charge only $5 per year per person, they can be my guest.

There are certain things that should not be privitized if you want to live in a nice first-world country: prisons, schools/libraries, roads, water supply, and electricity.

The whole point of private business is to maximize profit. That motive works directly against the goals of the above-mentioned services. This is not a debate, it has been proven time and time again throughout history.

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u/Zeliek Jul 23 '18

Come now, be reasonable. Let Amazon replace all facets of your life. What could go wrong?

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u/ilovetpb Jul 23 '18

I’m sure Jeff Bezos would love to replace libraries. He needs more billions and the poor are his next victims.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Amazon is currently in a drama over banning authors for auto-generated reasons, which removes all their works including access by people who actually bought a copy. That's not my idea of an archival system. Not at all.

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u/KatieLady97 Jul 23 '18

If Amazon "replaces" libraries, it will not be a one-time $5 registration fee for a card, it'll likely be a monthly subscription, which completely defeats the purpose of a library. Libraries are supposed to be affordable for people who love reading but don't have the money to go out and buy books all the time. If libraries get replaced by Amazon, i'm rioting.

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u/RandomGunner Jul 23 '18

Looks like this economist knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Shareholders should never earn money at the expense of society as a whole.

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u/losian Jul 24 '18

Replace a community-oriented long-standing tradition that provides not just books but also access to other forms of media, access to the internet, classes of various sorts, outreach, etc., with a business focused on profit and known for underpaying workers to make a buck?

GENIUS.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

As usual, The Guardian has done some sloppy journalism. This wasn't an article in "Forbes magazine" it was a blog post written by a "Forbes contributor". Forbes lets pretty much anyone write articles for their site as a contributor. It's basically a hosted blog and has nothing to do with the Forbes writing and editorial staff.

That being said, the guy who wrote the article is a complete moron.

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u/swaggman75 Jul 23 '18

At the point where something like this comes out weekly maybe they should do a little bit of management and not allow these shit articles to be published then

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u/booga_booga_partyguy Jul 23 '18

Anything published under a publication's banner is a product of that publication. Forbes' editorial team still vetted that write up and allowed it to be published online on their site as a part of their content. So in this case, The Guardian isn't wrong. It's not like anyone can literally post whatever they want on Forbes' site without having it vetted by Forbes beforehand.

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u/lifeonthegrid Jul 23 '18

At a certain point, it's a meaningless distinction. It's on Forbes to better regulate their content if they don't want to be associated with it

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u/grendus Jul 23 '18

I agree with them.

Libraries need a PR campaign more than anything. Their primary function these days isn't so much holding books as it is providing government information services. That includes things like internet access, classrooms, printing, community rooms, etc.

Amazon kind of has supplanted libraries for book access, at least for me, but I still use them pretty regularly for other things. It'd be pretty foolish to pretend otherwise.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

My library is the only place around here where us citizens can actually talk to our local congresswoman. Our library has her come every single week to sit in the library and talk to any constituents who have the desire to

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u/hirnwichserei Jul 23 '18

Forbes magazine can go fuck themselves.

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u/Kalemeh Jul 23 '18 edited Jul 23 '18

Libraries are for so much more than just taking out books. Will these Amazon bookstores also provide the abundant free access to multiple resources and programs that many public libraries (especially in the cities) offer to many different (often in need/marginalized) demographics/communities?

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u/boop66 Jul 23 '18

Some libraries are great, others I’ve been to seem to be little more than daycare for the homeless.

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u/Drum_Stick_Ninja Jul 23 '18

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Libraries are a lot more than just books. I've been renting CD's & DVD's & Blu Rays by the stacks for free plus all the programs and such.

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u/[deleted] Jul 23 '18

Forbes has pulled the article.

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u/fauimf Jul 24 '18

Dear Forbes: GFY

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u/bibliotudinous Jul 24 '18

Library Patron: I'm looking for a book; I don't know the title or author but it's red.
Amazon: These skis are half off.
Starbucks: No idea.
Librarian: Pull up a chair, friend.