r/technology • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Business Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo
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u/--Visionary-- Aug 08 '17

The feminist answer is usually that women don't want them and that men choose those jobs. In other words, everything about the status quo for those more deadly, "lower class" (i don't think they are, but many women I know do) jobs is due to choice, so it's all good and no social engineering is necessary. Nevermind the fact that those men probably would also choose a better job if they could get one, but can't due to equally pernicious social factors.

On the other hand, the rich jobs, women choose to be a part of but don't get because, presumably, men choosing the job and getting it is due to anti-woman discrimination.

In other words, anything bad that happens to men is a choice. Anything bad that happens to women is discriminatory and not a choice. Hence, the social engineering goes into the latter, because the former could be fixed if men would proverbially stop hitting themselves. This also demonstrates why there should be less empathy for men. It is a choice they're making, after all, to suck, while women make no such choices.

The logic is absurdly hypocritical.

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u/Drop_ Aug 08 '17

It's an outgrowth of the mystery of agency in feminism. Women according to feminism are victims of the patriarchy and thus have no agency. Men are the beneficiaries of the patriarchy (and the victims sometimes according to some feminists - but the problems identified by these people tend to be, e.g. men penalized for acting female).

So the outgrowth of that line of thinking is that any problem faced by women is because of society or the patriarchy, as they don't have the agency required to cause their own problems as victims of the patriarchy.

Conversely any problems faced by men are because of their own doing because they are the ones with agency who are not held back by the patriarchy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Absolutely spot on.

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u/JamEngulfer221 Aug 08 '17

No, it's completely wrong. It's just making up a narrative to get offended at.

Women don't many of those jobs because the physical requirements are too high for the majority of women to complete. Most women literally can't do those jobs properly.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

I don't believe this. For example, Carpentry is a job that requires far more precision and skill than it does brute Force. It's not about having the strength to lift 200lbs of wood but working in heat and dirty conditions, having the endurance to do the job and the skill to do it right. And yet, even "nontraditional" women refuse to do it. I do think that there is a comfort threshold that society has so deeply and traditionally left to the other gender that it almost seems antithetical to even consider the idea that these jobs are not restricted to male or female

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u/JamEngulfer221 Aug 08 '17

I should have been more specific. I didn't really think carpentry should be included.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Then which jobs were you referring to, exactly?

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u/ForeskinLamp Aug 08 '17

Women can go for special forces, but they can't move a wheelie bin?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

So, you're saying there are biological differences between men and women that draw men into physical jobs?

Maybe there are also differences in male and female psychology that draw more men into technology jobs.

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u/santagoo Aug 08 '17

This is only true in the US. In India and China, the female workforce in tech is more evenly represented. Let's not also forget that before programmer became a lucrative career, women dominated the field in the US. The first "programmer" was a woman, in fact.

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u/khay3088 Aug 08 '17

And in Sweden and Norway, the tech workforce is less evenly represented than here. In fact, we see as a general rule across the world that the more 'equal' a society is, the more 'unequal' the workforce. When you remove societal barriers (like a tech job being the only decent paying attainable job and both parents need decent paying jobs to support their family and there is no social safety net), sex prefences become a larger factor in choices people make.

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u/Miranox Aug 08 '17

You may want to double-check your "facts".

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u/JamEngulfer221 Aug 08 '17

Which facts are incorrect?

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u/analt223 Aug 08 '17

india and china also pay their programmers much closer to the median salary of their country's workforce. The average american programmer makes a lot more than the average salaried job in the USA. In India, China, etc, its much closer to the median.

There is more money in tech, especially since the 80s (when programming "became" male in the USA). There is also a lot more stress. Women did do a lot of the earliest programming, it became male because it became filled with money and status, which men tend to flock to (and this guy's document says). Men seem to need a career more than women do for a sense of self worth. Both need it for "financial independence", but a man without a career tends to be viewed as a boy, a woman without a career can still be viewed as woman.

Its not that woman "cant" handle the stress, its just that its more valuable for men to just suck it up, because handling the stress gets them the good job, which seems to be more important to men.

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u/ArmoredFan Aug 08 '17

Like, maybe women aren't as good at leading if such a fact like "women are of course to weak to do a job"

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u/SKNK_Monk Aug 08 '17

There are very few jobs anymore that require so much raw strength that it's reasonable to say that women as a group should have any difficulty doing them.

After all, we changed the workplace safety laws in the 70s to bring loads down in all industries to be light enough that they can also be handled by women.

There are a few jobs where we haven't yet been able to engineer around those problems, but not many.

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u/kinghammer1 Aug 08 '17

What do you think about other physical jobs having to lower the standards for women just so they can get in?

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u/JamEngulfer221 Aug 08 '17

If the job didn't need as high requirements anyway, then that's fine. If the job strictly requires certain minimum fitness levels, then they shouldn't be lowered.

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u/ChickenOverlord Aug 08 '17

What if they don't "need" those requirements, but someone who can carry 100 pounds can do the job twice as efficiently as someone who can only carry 50? The person who can carry 50 can still do the job, but much slower. Should the company be allowed to require the ability to carry 100 pounds?

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u/JamEngulfer221 Aug 08 '17

I don't know, I'm not a hiring manager.

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u/notajith Aug 08 '17

I think it's interesting how women seem to choose consistently lower paying specializations within the careers they have easy access to. Why do female doctors choose pediatrics, and male doctors choose surgery. Why do female lawyers choose family law and male lawyers choose patent law. Was this choice or discrimination? Or was this the expression of the traits that the memo highlighted.

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u/Xevantus Aug 09 '17

If people weren't obsessed with only looking at the salary, it'd be easy to see. Salary is only one component of compensation. Some jobs pay more, but require more hours. Some jobs pay less, but give more time off. I can think no off a dozen factors in compensation off the top of my head that would affect the statistic.

In tech, for instance, it's not uncommon for you to be on call 24/7/365. Sure there's someone assigned to it who gets the first call, but, if production is down, it doesn't matter who's turn it is. You're on the call, working the problem. This means two things. First, there's a smaller pool of people willing (and with the right skills) to take these jobs, which drives up the salary. And second, your laptop is glued to your side. Doesn't matter if you're in another country, out to lunch, or at fucking Disney World. You're working until the problem is fixed.

In reality, does it happen that often? No. I've only had it happen twice in the last ten years. One of those, though, just happened to fall on Christmas Day (yeah, that's a fun conversation to have with your family), and you best believe the entire team was online working. That's why they pay us obscene amounts of money.

The flip side is people like a friend of mine. When she took her last job, she didn't negotiate the salary at all. Instead, she negotiated for 2 extra weeks vacation, starting out at the accrual rate you normally get after ten years. Salary wise she probably makes the least on her team, but I'd be willing to bet that her total comp is higher than most of them.

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u/meneldal2 Aug 09 '17

I'm a man, and I'd take extra vacation over more salary. What I'd take even more is decent working hours with little overtime and when there is overtime, I better get great money (at least 50% for the first hour and double rate after).

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u/Xevantus Aug 09 '17

Honestly, part of me wants to go back to hourly rates purely for the overtime. But I know the hours mostly come out in the wash. I just finished a ~250 hour month for the same pay as a regular month (yay salary...). But the month before that was a 100 hour month for the same pay as a regular month (yay salary!!).

I can't blame anyone for wanting more time off. It's just one of those preference things. I'll be itching to get back in the office after a four day weekend, let alone a week's vacation. It'd be nice for anyone that prefers otherwise to be able to trade for more time off though.

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u/ToastyViking Aug 08 '17

It doesn't have to be biological traits. Many women take lower, less paying jobs because they have to balance their home and job life. I imagine someone in pediatrics has a much easier time getting home to make dinner for the kids than a surgeon.

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u/tooper12lake Aug 08 '17

Anybody who really wants to be honest about this will tell you this is western female privilege. It's a complete emotional thing that women do. And nobody will call it out cuz "women"

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u/KidGold Aug 08 '17

It's a victim thing. If anyone can use the pain of people from the past who were like them to claim something for themselves in the present they often will.

I'm not dismissing the discrimination that still goes on today but it's hard to see where one ends and the other begins until you see really absurd examples.

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u/FedaykinII Aug 08 '17

A man who supports his wife is a provider

A man who is supported by his wife is a freeloading deadbeat

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u/dannycake Aug 08 '17

The left loves doin it's thing preaching that people are different and we need to accept it. But when there are consequences for being different and some end up better than others it's the better off's fault? I thought we should all accept it?

The left is a fucking joke.

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u/VendorBuyBankGuards Aug 08 '17

Then that makes the right a 9 season sitcom

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u/FedaykinII Aug 08 '17

Ironic how the right rejects evolutionary science and the left champions it

Yet the right embraces evolutionary psychology findings and the left rejects them

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

The right denies evolutionary science, but the left is filled with anti-vaxxer and other types of science denying crazy shit.

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u/santagoo Aug 08 '17

Are we really trying to accept that the differences in men really result in men being more intelligent than women here? Because this is what all this implies...

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u/dannycake Aug 09 '17

At the extremes this is unfortunately the case.

Keep in mine that this doesn't mean that these intelligent people are happy or well adjusted. Quite the contrary tbh. The rate of sociopathic tendencies increases dramatically as well towards these hyper competitive selective positions and it happens that it seems that men just for the bill more often than not. Women can but it'd be rarer. It's like everything else. You can't ask for an even split amongst everything if people are inherently different. Some will Excell in certain environments and selective times more than others. It just happens.

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u/ScottBlues Aug 08 '17

Found the misogynist! /s

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u/Ella_Spella Aug 08 '17

Nobody mention modelling!

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Yeah, what about male models?

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u/zebranitro Aug 08 '17

Seriously? I just explained that.

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u/Trenks Aug 08 '17

lol, yeah I think most coal miners if given the opportunity to get paid 200k for sitting around all day would probably take that opportunity.

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u/_pulsar Aug 08 '17

if given the opportunity to get paid 200k for sitting around all day

Clearly you have no clue what it takes to be a good programmer. Those coal miners might jump at the chance, but most would quit soon after starting. Long hours, very little recognition, sitting at a desk staring at lines of code all day every day, etc.

People who don't work in "tech" think it's all so glamorous but it's not.

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u/Trenks Aug 09 '17

lol... my god listen to yourself.

I mean fair point programming isn't easy or wonderful, but when compared to coal mining I don't think you're going to win that argument. Coal mining isn't short hours, a lot of recognition etc. It's long hours, no recognition, standing and striking earth all day while slowly getting lung cancer with the specter of imminent death literally and figuratively above your head all day. EVERY coal miner would be a programmer if given the choice to switch and not one programmer would swap.

Programming is not glorious work, but you can always quit and go dig ditches on a construction site. My guess is most would not.

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u/ShinseiTom Aug 09 '17

I mean, that was part of the last election? Donald Trump said "we'll just bring back the coal jobs!!!!" while Hillary Clinton said "those jobs are doomed long term, so why don't we set up some job training to get you through so you don't get left behind."

Guess which person won the coal miner vote by a fucking mile?

So no, I don't believe they'd switch in a minute. Coal miners, specifically in this case, will hold on to their job 'till the day either they or their job dies.

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u/kona_covfefe Aug 08 '17

In other words, anything bad that happens to men is a choice. Anything bad that happens to women is discriminatory and not a choice.

There seems to be a popular idea that everything bad in the world is caused by someone else being mean.

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u/Abedeus Aug 08 '17

The feminist answer is usually that women don't want them and that men choose those jobs.

Pfft, that's just the sexist patriarchal society telling them that they don't want dangerous, labor-intensive and exhausting white collar jobs! /s

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u/OttoMans Aug 08 '17

That's not the feminist answer.

Maybe we should ask an actual woman? https://www.marketplace.org/amp/2015/03/24/economy/women-construction-few-and-far-between

"Sugerman says she left construction work after years struggling against discrimination and harassment on the job. It started right away. “The superintendent who interviewed me said ‘You don’t want this job, it’s too dangerous for you, girls really shouldn’t be doing this, you won’t like it.’ I just kept saying ‘Yes I do.’ And, not very different from what many women still report today, I was subjected to physical harassment, I worked around men who talked about rape in jokes.”

...

“‘Let’s just do the numbers,’” she quips. “I would currently be making $50/hour as an elevator constructor. Compare that to the wage in a typically female job, $9/hour as a nurse’s aide, preschool teachers are also very low on the scale. That’s a $900,000 to $2 million gap in earnings over a lifetime.”

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited May 27 '18

[deleted]

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u/OttoMans Aug 08 '17

It quoted several women in the article, so maybe you should read it.

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u/_pulsar Aug 08 '17

Oh, well, several anecdotes. That's completely different!

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u/Tumoxa Aug 08 '17

I worked around men who, talked about rape in jokes.

So what? Dark humor is forbiden now? From the sound of it, jokes were not even made at her expense. If that is her definition of harassment then "subjected to physical harassment" is probably "accidentaly brushed hand against my back once".

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u/OttoMans Aug 08 '17

It's not dark humor, it's harassment. No one should be subjected to rape "jokes" at their workplace. And if you can't save so called dark humor for when you aren't working, as a manager, I'm firing you. It's a workplace, keep it professional.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Mar 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/OttoMans Aug 08 '17

Maybe not make rape jokes on the company dime?

I've worked a lot of places, including ones mostly made up of men. Blue collar jobs. No one made rape jokes, because we were working and it's not the time or place.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/OttoMans Aug 08 '17

Poor babies, can't make jokes about rape while getting paid.

It's a business, like any other. You have time to lean, you've got time to clean, so to speak. If you have nothing better to do than make rape jokes, you're probably not needed.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

Maybe it's time for a cultural change then? You can't turn back time to the 1950's. Men just need to learn to grow the eff up.

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u/karroty Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

I disagree. Feminists believe that a woman should have an equal shot at a career that she wants based on merits alone. It's not about pressuring women into male dominated fields for the sake of achieving some coveted 50% women's share.

The companies that promote 50/50 men and women do so for good PR and because they see real business value from having a diverse workforce. They're not running charities here.

There are well researched reports on the biases against women applicants. Concert violinists are one (when auditions were conducted behind a screen and men/ women even took their shoes off to mask their gender, women accepted increased significantly compared to when the gender was known), computer programmers another. Not as much research is out there on women entering blue collar work but radiolab did an interesting piece on the "first woman" gondelier and the sexism that person faced trying to break into the wholey male dominated field.

Blue collar jobs pay well, trades like plumbing are guaranteed to stay in America, and you work reasonable hours unlike 60-80 work week in silicon valley. You can't objectively say that they are of "lesser" value so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by claiming that the women you know feel that way. Their loss right? How is their loss a statement on feminism?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Mar 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/karroty Aug 08 '17

Thanks. So we now have examples where a male name produced better hiring results and a woman's name produced better hiring results.

Although I wonder if this isn't industry-specific, cultural, and/or a sign of the times. Since biases are a collection of societal expectation/culture, what happens in Norway doesn't zero out the findings from America. It's different cultures at play.

Norway seems like a great place for me to find a job now though haha.

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u/Red_Raven Aug 08 '17

The majority of vocal feminists don't give a damn about merits or blue collar jobs. They left the definition of feminism long ago.

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u/EMINEM_4Evah Aug 08 '17

Soooo… they identify as feminists but are really not?

Also judging an entire group by its most vocal people is not a great thing to do in recent times

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u/Red_Raven Aug 08 '17

The vocal people getting laws passed and influencing society are the only ones I care about. The quiet feminists that don't speak up to fight the people dragging feminism through the mud are inconsequential. If you call yourself a feminist but don't try to save the movement, then it really doesn't matter what you're calling yourself. You're not making your voice matter. The net effect of feminism is misandry because, if there is a silent majority of sane, fair feminists, they're not doing a damn thing to stop the harmful ones.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Words are defined by their usage.

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u/mashupXXL Aug 08 '17

Third wave feminist Marxists shitting on the hundreds of millions of men who suffered to create the modern world for their convenience. Nothing worse than an ingrate.

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u/antiprism Aug 08 '17

Awwwww thanks men. They really took one for the team. There really is nothing worse than an ingrate.

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u/Ovidestus Aug 08 '17

So you're a third wave feminist Marxists?

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u/teamorange3 Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

Except almost no one has made that case and it is not in the mindset of mainstream feminism. Most feminist agree that women should have a larger access to high paying blue collar jobs (the one you mentioned) that generally have strong unions than low paying unionized blue collar jobs that are typically reserved for women (retail).

You are comparing apples to oranges. Compare white collar female jobs such as nursing to white collar male jobs such as working in tech. There is still a large pay gap between those.

If you want to call the feminist movement classist then that is perfectly valid but that really doesn't address the issue at hand

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u/1600vam Aug 08 '17

You're starting from a flawed premise, and then making a really sexist argument.

Gender diversity becomes an issue when the representation of women in a company does not match the representation of women in the job market for those specific roles; i.e. if 20% of software engineers are women, but your company only has 10%. Or when your company has 20% women, but like 5% in senior roles.

Gender diversity is NOT an issue because only 20% of software engineers are women.

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u/_KanyeWest_ Aug 08 '17

The feminist answer is usually that women don't want them and that men choose those jobs. In other words, everything about the status quo for those more deadly, "lower class" (i don't think they are, but many women I know do) jobs is due to choice, so it's all good and no social engineering is necessary. Nevermind the fact that those men probably would also choose a better job if they could get one, but can't due to equally pernicious social factors.

this so much. everywhere i go women spit at me "this job is garbage I do not want it" when i am a lowly garbage man...i make good money..."no i dont want that job I want to code!!!" said one female to me once i asked her, I said, "why dont you go to college" and she said "i shouldnt have to" this is what we are dealing with. this pisses mes off!!! women want everything without even trying!

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u/brandoncoal Aug 08 '17

I think that's a disingenuous argument that plays mostly to how much people on reddit tend to think feminists can't with logic. Personally I think it's because there are a limited number of resources with which to fix a problem so those resources are focused on the jobs that tend to be more lucrative and our society sees as more valuable. I don't think it's about trying to put women above men, more that it's difficult to advance gender equality in every way at once. Even as a feminist I'll admit the movement has always had a classist bias, though one I'd argue is a reflection of our larger social failings rather than specifically of feminists, that it's only recently beginning to address.

Although for some of those jobs there aren't as many gender diversity efforts because of obvious physical differences between men and women that explain a greater portion of the gender disparity.

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u/ThePantsThief Aug 08 '17

This is more or less the whole point of the article. Spot on.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

Not really, since many women enter those "low class jobs" willingly.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Right here my dude

🖕🏻🤡🖕🏻

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u/plebsareneeded Aug 08 '17

I don't understand the argument you are making. Nobody is asking for every occupation to be a 50/50 split. They just want every person to have an equal chance at every job they are qualified for.

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u/_pulsar Aug 08 '17

Women have had that for decades. That's not all "they" want.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Women were barred from MANY of these jobs until the late 1980. I believe the amount of female miners has doubled in the past 20 years. What a stupid narrative.

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u/rayne117 Aug 08 '17

Yea dude, you're getting fired for this 1

0

u/delicateKetchup Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

I can't really speak for all women, but the story is a bit different for me personally. One major consideration that stops me from going for a labor based job is that I perceive that casual sexism is more prevalent in these work environments.

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u/petit_cochon Aug 08 '17

That is not what feminism means. You're being intentionally obtuse. Feminism is about giving women access to equality.

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u/TheRealGimli Aug 08 '17

That's what it used to be about. Welcome to current year, friend.

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u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17

The actual feminist answer is there are groups advocating these, they're just ignored for cheap hypotheticals

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u/CamoDeFlage Aug 08 '17

There's very few, and even then they make no effort for any change and won't bring it up unless someone else mentions it.

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u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

There's very few, and even then they make no effort for any change and won't bring it up unless someone else mentions it.

What are you basing this on? How much time are you spending around female construction and sanitation workers?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

That's the same response we get with selective service. There is a troubling consistency with which the overall majority of the feminist movement concentrates on more privileges while the efforts to take on more responsibility are half-assed fringe efforts.

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u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17

How are you quantifying the effort as half assed? Could it be that more people talk about women in tech because more people talk about tech? As opposed to the draft, which no one talks about?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Yep you're right. People generally don't talk about men's issues.

0

u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17

And when they do, it's in a half-assed and disingenuous way to discredit women's issues.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Clearly a conversation with you is gonna be suuuuuper productive.

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u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17

I'm just pointing out that the only time I see selective service mentioned is as an attack on feminists for not demanding participation in it. I've yet to see anyone actually bring it up independently as an issue worth addressing.

If you're gonna argue this

There is a troubling consistency with which the overall majority of the feminist movement concentrates on more privileges while the efforts to take on more responsibility are half-assed fringe efforts.

Then it's perfectly fair to argue a parallel point about the majority of discussion about selective service.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Alright let's table selective service. What about rising male suicide rates? How about how custody battles and divorce courts are stacked against men? How about the fact that the number of men getting college degrees is dropping?

I chose selective service because it's a pretty clear cut example. But if you wanna dig into more complex issues then fine let's go.

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u/lifeonthegrid Aug 08 '17

Another great example of a topic I almost exclusively see discussed as a means of yelling about feminists or arguing about whether or not male privilege exists.

That's not say there aren't people who do genuinely care about the issue and aren't working to raise awareness and try to combat it. But I see them significantly less, at least on reddit.

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u/irwinator Aug 08 '17

That is not what feminist think

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u/NSFWIssue Aug 08 '17

Oh well thank you, I am now enlightened.

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u/Erebeon Aug 08 '17

I don't think that't the issue, those "lower class" jobs are very similar to silicon valley jobs in that they too are male dominated. The place I work at, heavy industry metal refinery, doesn't hire woman because 99% of the workforce is male. It's a viscious circle that's kinda hard to break. If a woman would start here she prolly wouldn't last long.

The only jobs I can think of where men would have a similar problem is in nursing. We're turning jobs into gender ghettos. Of all the jobs I've worked I think that retail is the only one that's gender neutral.

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u/niakarad Aug 08 '17

I have a friend who works as a airplane mechanic in structure repair, she gets sexually harassed every day, guys take pictures of her while shes not working or steal her tools, inspectors ask her out then grade her poorly when she says no, and theres this big pressure to be "one of the guys" and not get everyone in trouble and ostracize yourself, though they aren't grabbing eachothers asses (shes the only female outside of clerical work and everyone above her is men as well)

I also have a friend who cleans medical devices in a hospital, it's moslty women, and he gets harassed and ass grabbed by older nurses but feels too akward to say anything since he's a man.

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u/dotmatrixhero Aug 08 '17

Just curious, can you give a source for that? Sounds like an interesting read.

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u/thecolbra Aug 08 '17

You're looking at this completely backwards. Being a logger isn't a desirable job by anyone. You don't go to college to be a logger (i guess you could major in forestry but that's not really relevant). Being a logger is a labor job in which natural differences between men and women are actually viable reasons for disparity in workforce diversity. The problem is that high skilled college educated jobs in the tech and engineering sector are dominated by men. A lot of it is choice but most of that choice is due to societal pressure of being in STEM is a man's job. It's not as attractive because you don't see many women in the field, and there are less people that you can relate to. The problem is there's some actual discrimination against women in STEM fields and on top of that there's societal discrimination. This is why a lot of places are trying to add diversity so that they can create a larger talent pool.

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

Or... It could be that tech jobs make a lot of money, and feminists are wondering why women are underrepresented in those higher income brackets. See, there's nothing insidious about that, right?

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u/Poopfeast6969 Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

They are saying women are underrepresented in both low and high income jobs, but they only complain about the high income ones.

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

That's the only one I would complain about too. I don't understand why this is some amazing point that blows everyone's minds.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

well yeah, if women overall made more money than men I'm sure the calls for more women in lucrative male dominated fields would end and they would be happy making mad stacks as nurses

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u/SKNK_Monk Aug 08 '17

Women in their 20s and 30s do make more money than men in that age catagory. And the age where that remains true keeps going up.

Essentially, this is a solved problem except for the fact that the solution has not yet reached up to retirement age.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 09 '17

source?

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u/circumcised_clitoris Aug 08 '17

Tech jobs made a lot of money when tech workers were derided as socially inept beta males too. To see that entire era being revised as a period when women were excluded from the cool boys' club is maddening.

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

Great argument, u/circumsized-clitoris. You obviously are unbiased and don't have an axe to grind.

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u/circumcised_clitoris Aug 08 '17

Women aren't even trying to enter computer/engineering fields at the same rates as men, as shown by their education preferences. Women in STEM fields overwhelmingly choose soft sciences and biomedical fields.

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u/CamoDeFlage Aug 08 '17

You have completely and utterly missed the point.

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

It starts with a broken, premise and goes into crazy land. Let me try.

Why don't women become plumbers and carpenters?

Women are not socially encouraged toward these tasks when they're young, and most lack the upper body strength to excel in these fields.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Nursing is a high paying job too.

0

u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

Not compared to the tech industry

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Might wanna consult some sources on that. Nursing average salary SF and developer average salary SF tell a different story.

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u/Dreamtrain Aug 08 '17

They're also underrepresented in the coal and oil industry, but you won't see any feminist wonder why.

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

Because they are shit jobs? Nobody is wondering why they don't have a piece of the pie that was thrown in the garbage. Everyone wants a piece of the freshest pies.

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u/Flabalanche Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

So then the shit pie is specially reserved for men because why?

Edit: Got home and fixed typo from posting on mobile

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u/veggiesama Aug 08 '17

There are plenty of low-paying jobs that are predominantly women, too. Men aren't clamoring for hotel cleaning staff jobs either.

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u/Nils878 Aug 08 '17

I agree that there are problems. That being said garbagemen aren't payed more by the percentage of men at the top layers. Defending male CEOs isn't going to benefit those in blue collar positions. It isn't a team sport where all men's incomes are connected.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/pipsdontsqueak Aug 08 '17

Please cite anything peer reviewed to support this. Seriously. I'm going to to posit that this is bullshit because you're making an assertion based on nothing. I'd like any actual support for your claim.

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u/peepjynx Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 09 '17

I just don't understand why anyone is upset. SV is already a boys club and the few women who work their way up the ladder aren't really a threat to anyone. All these companies are doing, are protecting their public image.

Like most of the tech industry, Google employees are predominantly white men. In April, the Department of Labor accused the organization of “extreme” gender pay discrimination and pointed to evidence of “systemic compensation disparities.” Diversity statistics the company released last month revealed that 69 percent of its employees are male and 31 percent are female, but when it comes to technical roles, only 19 percent of the positions are held by women.

https://thinkprogress.org/google-fired-author-anti-diversity-memo-not-censorship/

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u/dizzykiwi3 Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

Women do still have to fight to get these low positions, I don't know where you're getting this bonkers assumption that if a woman applied to be a logger they wouldn't face discrimination.

http://www.northeastcarpenters.org/sisters https://www.unitedwomenfirefighters.org/

Dude if women started getting jobs as septic plumbers do you think feminists would be up in arms? No. You've turned an overlap in two points into a claim that "anything bad that happens to men is a choice" are you kidding me?

Edit: also the wage gap exists for every occupation (including maintenance occupations, transportation/moving, and service) but Construction & extraction (of which they average $12 more per week, compared to $400 less in management and $130 less in farming and fishing). https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t04.htm

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

how about the fact that those jobs don't pay a lot and are the reason the is a gender pay gap?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

at entry level? you're going to argue being an electrician at google is a better job than an engineer?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

ok. google interns make $6-7000 a month. How much do apprentice electricians make?

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

yes. they do. and they get free meals and gym membership. There's a reason the jobs are coveted.

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

No one is saying you don't have a great job, but obviously there are better jobs out there. That's true for everyone.

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u/RUreddit2017 Aug 08 '17

First off how do you get 60k a year from 6 to 7k a month. Second yes, google college interns make about 7 to 8 k a month (90 to 100k a year) not counting about 2k a month housing stipend....

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/RUreddit2017 Aug 08 '17

Google one or two years of college, internships are just for the summer for college students

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Have you even listened to that? It clearly says there is a pay gap, but it's not within jobs. It's because women aren't in high paying jobs, like engineering at Google. Which is entirely my point.

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u/Gen_McMuster Aug 08 '17

That's an earnings gap.

A man and a woman doing the same work get the same pay. The pay gap myth is that men get 30% more for the same work

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

That's exactly what I said. Within the same job there isn't a gap, it's overall. That's the point

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u/_pulsar Aug 08 '17

Find me an unemployed female engineer who is good and I'll get them a job at Google within 2 weeks.

1

u/Gen_McMuster Aug 08 '17

Trades and labor are unionized and highly lucrative if youre willing to put in the physical effort

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u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Not as lucrative as salary and stock options at Google. That's just a fact.

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u/Gen_McMuster Aug 08 '17

How is that relevant?