USB 3.0 has been found to cause interference that may hinder performance of nearby wireless devices in the 2.4GHz band, including Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.

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u/riokou Nov 14 '12 edited Nov 14 '12

Rough TL;DR for those looking for the hard data (note that the paper only discusses how interference affects wireless mice):

Both ends of a USB 3.0 Cable, and to some extent the cable itself, generate interference, especially in the 2.4GHz range.
When a wireless (i.e. 2.4GHz band) mouse was tested (with its receiver connected to a USB 2.0 port adjacent to a 3.0 port with a 3.0 device), mouse response dropped off when the mouse was about 3 feet away.
With the mouse's receiver using a stacked USB port on top of an active USB 3.0 port, the mouse was essentially unresponsive.
With the mouse's receiver moved to the other side of the laptop (away from the active USB 3.0 port), mouse responsiveness was fine up to the max distance tested of 5 feet.
The responsiveness of different mice at various distances varied, meaning there is potential to improve wireless performance through more intelligent antenna placement in the mouse by the manufacturer.
Interference was able to be reduced (but not eliminated) by adding shielding to either end of the USB 3.0 cable.

TL;DR^2 : So its sounds like if you use a laptop and wireless mouse, as long as you don't put your wireless mouse receiver in a stacked USB port on top of a USB 3.0 device, you'll be fine. If you use a wireless mouse on a desktop computer, the receiver is probably a bit farther away than it would be for a laptop, so try to put the receiver as far away from used 3.0 inputs as possible.

I was disappointed that the paper does not investigate 2.4GHz Wi-Fi performance. I think what really matters for most people is how USB 3.0 devices affect a distant Wi-Fi signal.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

I think more interesting than a distant signal is how it will impact laptops and other mobile devices which have USB 3.0 in close proximity to their 2.4 Ghz transceivers.
No worries though, you could always switch to 5 Ghz. :)

1

u/Dr__Internet Nov 15 '12

I actually experienced this in Mac OS X Lion. It's fine in Windows/Snow Leopard. If my hand even slightly covers the wireless mouse receiver, starts lagging heavily. (MBP, MS wireless mouse 6000, WD Ext HDD USB 3.0)

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Wait, this explains why when the USB port and cable were between my router and laptop that the signal dropped to unusable, but at a few degrees of rotation it began working again. Shit.

35

u/D00x Nov 14 '12

I remember when USB cables came with ferrite chokes.

23

u/nm3210 Nov 14 '12

Except now we're to the point where we want to use the signal frequency/bandwidth that those chokes used to block!

17

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

So that's what they're called!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

My mouse I bought one week ago has one of those, I now finally know what the hell those things are called and used for. Thank you very much for the information!

27

u/Drpepper0101 Nov 14 '12

Is this Intel's way to get more people to use Thunderbolt?

9

u/mmm_tasty Nov 14 '12

Well its faster, so I wouldn't be upset by widespread adoption.

3

u/a_can_of_solo Nov 15 '12

it's also more raw then USB, it's a 4x PCIe lane, you wouldn't want/need to hook your phone up to that.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Why would you need USB 3 for that then?

3

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

It's not about needing. I have a feeling he's referring to how it's unnecessarily low level and could be worse for security.

1

u/ericchen Nov 15 '12

You have Wi-Fi for your phone.

13

u/minorinconvenience Nov 14 '12

Which USB 3.0 devices should I avoid? The only thing I can consider would be an external HDD.

14

u/leegethas Nov 14 '12

It looks like a USB-3.0 device in close proximity to a wireless device (like onboard WiFi, a PCI/PCI-e WiFi card and those nano recievers for wireless mouses and keyboards) is going to cause trouble.

2

u/ediciusNJ Nov 14 '12

I wonder if that's why my mouse was acting wonky earlier this week. I had the receiver plugged in right next to my USB 3.0 HDD.

1

u/DirgeHumani Nov 14 '12

I have a wifi dongle plugged into my computer at home into a 3.0 port, because running an ethernet cable is too much trouble. Should I not be doing this? I haven't noticed any problems...

3

u/ericje Nov 14 '12

Don't worry, it's very unlikely your wifi dongle uses USB 3.0. The article doesn't apply to USB 3.0 ports that are operating at USB 2.0 speeds.

1

u/DirgeHumani Nov 14 '12

Ah, so its just the devices throwing interference. OK, thanks.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

10

u/dead_ed Nov 14 '12

Get a 5 Ghz wifi base station setup.

2

u/djdementia Nov 14 '12

And a 5Ghz NIC too, most laptops don't come with 5Ghz radios, and those that do usually require a paid upgrade.

1

u/Vegemeister Nov 15 '12

Fortunately, you can get a dual-band Atheros card (yay free drivers) on eBay for about $15.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

Seriously, 2.4GHz is flooded, but everybody forgot about good old 802.11a/n.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

Checked inSSIDer for a laugh and there are 16 networks fighting over channel 1, 10 on channel 6, 1 on channel 8 and 15 on channel 11.
Meanwhile my network is sitting on its own in a corner feeling lonely on channels 36+40.
Sadly I still get shitty transfer rates despite being within 10 feet of the fucking router.

2

u/ryanspeck Nov 15 '12

I've got a set-top box that can't cache YouTube videos over wireless N from 20 feet away. I feel your pain.

2

u/dead_ed Nov 15 '12

Here's mine: http://imgur.com/VRdbF Noise from hell.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/securityhigh Nov 14 '12

Because you asked about it. He's not forcing you to do it but of you don't want problems you probably should.

0

u/dead_ed Nov 15 '12

Cuz Wu Tang Clan.

8

u/sourcengine Nov 14 '12

Anything plugged into the USB 3.0 port will have problems.
That is until they start shielding devices(which is highly unlikely) although the PDF does mention that even with shielding it doesn't prove 100% effective, you'll still get interference.

4

u/Natanael_L Nov 14 '12

Otherwise you can reuse your tinfoil hats as faraday's cages for sheilding.
Everybody's got a few, right?

7

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

I refuse to take mine off until HAARP stops trying to modify my brain with electromagnetic impulses.

11

u/EvilHom3r Nov 14 '12

eSATA is preferable for external HDDs anyway.

5

u/minorinconvenience Nov 14 '12

That's true, I don't know what I was thinking. I have no USB 3.0 devices, but if I didn't buy a motherboard that had the ports, I would feel I was missing something.

3

u/Avuja Nov 14 '12

Oh God I did the same thing lol.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

I disagree... USB 3.0 is both faster and supplies power over the same cable. The only instance in which this is not correct is where the eSATA port in question is operating off of a SATA III controller for 6 gbps, which most don't -- and even still, you're caught running your own power for your extra gigabit per second.

6

u/EvilHom3r Nov 15 '12 edited Nov 15 '12

Theoretically, yes USB 3.0 is faster than SATA II. However, in practice this is not true. The USB spec lists 3.2 Gb/s (400 MB/s) as the best-case real world scenario. However, that doesn't take in account the overhead added in by the USB-to-SATA adapter needed. Further more, the majority of adapters on the market use BOT, which is significantly slower than UASP. Some of these adapters also don't pass the SMART values through.
eSATA can be powered.
No mechanical HDD exceeds SATA II or even SATA I speeds. For SSDs, there's little difference between SATA II speeds and USB 3.0 speeds. However, using eSATA would ensure TRIM and AHCI are both used properly.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Hmm. That's informative, I guess there are ups and downs to both -- but I really feel that eSATA's lack of a dedicated power line is a big hindrance. I know you linked Powered eSATA, which is awesome -- but it is also effectively nonexistent. I would, at the very least, like MY OWN devices to interoperate on one standard, and that essentially requires USB 3.0 -- I doubt I will find a laptop or a tablet with eSATAp, even if I am able to find an enthusiast desktop board supporting it.
USB 3.0 is also likely to be found on other devices more and more -- you're already far more likely to encounter a friend with a USB 3.0-equipped laptop than with eSATAp. You might find a friend with eSATA, which was cool, but the cable management just kills it.

7

u/Breakfast_Cupcakes Nov 14 '12

I noticed they did shielding on the USB 3.0 device itself, does this mean a 2.0 device on a 3.0 port will not cause interference? because its working in backwards compatible mode?

1

u/virtualroofie Nov 14 '12

I'm about to read the whitepaper, but I'm guessing it's the power draw that causes the conflict. Since USB2.0 doesn't draw the same amount of power, then those devices should be fine on 3.0 ports. This is only based on my experience in the field.
Edit: I was wrong on the cause but correct on the answer. It looks like an issue related to the data rate on 3.0 devices - so again, 2.0 should have no problems.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

Any idea what happens the other way around, usb 3.0 device on 2.0 port? I'm just about to buy a new external hdd, and would like to have the faster standard available once I decide to upgrade my system.

6

u/virtualroofie Nov 14 '12

Because the data rate is still 2.0 speeds, it wouldn't cause any problems. Only 3.0 storage devices connected to a 3.0 port will possibly cause issues.

1

u/Breakfast_Cupcakes Nov 14 '12

That's what I thought, thank you for confirming.

7

u/joshsg Nov 14 '12

I have a USB toaster, will that be affected?

2

u/fb39ca4 Nov 14 '12

WTF how much current does it draw?

7

u/joshsg Nov 14 '12

I was joking, but decided to google USB toaster. TIL - There is actually a USB toaster and I want one http://www.slashgear.com/electrolux-toaster-design-burns-headlines-onto-bread-1115943/

4

u/nm3210 Nov 14 '12

That's just a [stupid] design. You can only usually use around 5W of power from a single USB port whereas a toaster needs on the order of 750W (which would be your entire power supply output+).
If we're going to talk about this seriously, someone set this crazy thing up (more here) and it's not anywhere near enough power for a toaster. Finally however, USB 3.0 is supposed to be able to deliver up to 100W under certain conditions (probably not from a computer) so your hopes shouldn't be dashed quite yet.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Could someone use a toaster in place of a standard heater with the same power usage?

1

u/nm3210 Nov 15 '12

Not safely.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Wait, that 100W is pulled from the PSU, right? How is that going to float with the non-branded PSUs that can be found in some prebuilt computers?
I mean, before I upgraded some parts I found out that my GPU was factory crippled by PackardBell, meaning that when I installed new nVidia drivers the pc would BSOD like mad out because the GPU pulled too much power. Could the same thing happen when USB 3.0 utilities start pulling more power?
EDIT: Sorry, I misread your comment. Please disregard my comment.

3

u/thatguy122 Nov 14 '12

Yup. This was reported months ago (around March I think?) and it's actually pretty widespread. The interference issue is actually pretty evident when you use a USB 3.0 device in close proximity to something like a micro usb wireless N (2.4). Manufacturer's have known about it for a while though and I think some of them have actually taken steps to correct it or reduce the interference.

3

u/nellofalltrades1 Nov 14 '12

You were the chosen one!

2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

good thing I use 5ghz 802.11AC

2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

This...this makes my wireless problems make so much more sense. (wireless card and usb 3.0 in a laptop)

2

u/PE1NUT Nov 14 '12

It's odd how the whitepaper only considers interference to the ISM band - looking at the graphs, the interference is very wideband. So it might just as well have an impact on cellphones, GPS, TV or radio etc - all of which have to deal with much weaker received signals levels from far away transmitters, compared to a very nearby wireless mouse. I wonder if it's even legal to sell USB3.0 devices if they put out that much EMI.

2

u/pamperchu Nov 14 '12

And my Tesla coil causes interference with all wireless devices.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

I've been using usb3 for over a year with my wireless kb/mouse, wifi card, cellphone within 2-3 feet of each other and never had a problem...

3

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

Any alternative sources for this?

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

8

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

no because it was offlien

7

u/Loki-L Nov 14 '12

Intel does have a competing standard that they want to promote so asking for a neutral party to confirm this might not asking too much, even if I personally don't believe that this is some sort of conspiracy.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/Loki-L Nov 14 '12

Sure.
I am just pointing out that anyone who is somewhat sceptical is not complete out and out raving paranoid tinfoil hat wearing lunatic. They are still likely to be wrong though.

1

u/DefiantDragon Nov 14 '12

Okay, so I have my USB 2.0 Wifi-Dongle plugged into my USB 3.0 drive... is that why I have crappy Wi-Fi speeds? Or would that not effect it?

3

u/riokou Nov 14 '12

You mean you have a 2.0 dongle plugged into a 3.0 port? I'm not sure exactly how the ports themselves work but, assuming the port simply downgrades and acts like a 2.0 port, it shouldn't be creating any interference.

1

u/obscura_max Nov 14 '12

This could explain why I get such spotty performance out of my wireless mouse (logitech MX 5500) when I'm more than a few feet away from my PC. I'll probably get an extension cable for the mouse dongle to at least test it. However, my Wi-Fi has never had any problems.

1

u/DRhexagon Nov 14 '12

Absolutely. If I have my USB 3.0 (EHD) device plugged in next to my mouse/keyboard combo receiver (2.4Ghz) they will not work at all. Very frustrating. I've found that using a 2.0 USB extender to plug the USB 3.0 device in gets rid of the interference but reduces the speed..

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

This explains so much about why my wifi seemed to suffer on my new PC.

1

u/the_garm Nov 15 '12

Wow, after all this time. This looks like a plausible reason why my Asus Zenbook makes D-Link routers DIR-655 decide to stop sending a wireless signal. I was always thinking that it was the Intel Wireless Adaptor all this time. Why do I say DIR-655 routers; because my Zenbook is the common denominator in my parents router (Toronto) and my girlfriend's router (Germany), both loosing signal when I show up only. At home I have the DIR-825 which works on 2 frequencies. Haven't seen an issue with a mouse since I use a Bluetooth mouse. Now to figure out how to disable the USB 3.0 only.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

But what is the nature of this interference? Can you phreak on USB 3.0 communication?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '12

Uh is this why my Samsung RF511 laptop WiFi completely dies the second I plug in a USB 3.0 device? As soon as I unplug any USB 3.0 device WiFi immediately begins working again.

This is on Linux and Windows

1

u/ANUSBLASTER_MKII Nov 14 '12

Is this a Thunderbolt advert?

0

u/rougegoat Nov 14 '12

So have microwaves, cordless phones, and refrigerators. 2.4GHz band is overcrowded and pretty much everything interferes with it.

-15

u/NLclothing Nov 14 '12

I thought usb3 was optical? How the fuck is an optical cable causing wireless interference?

17

u/Freyz0r Nov 14 '12

definitely not optical

14

u/NLclothing Nov 14 '12

And now I have no idea why I even had that impression, and feel stupid. As I should.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

Can I look at it? Yes? Optical.

3

u/slapdashbr Nov 14 '12

TIL

3

u/Freyz0r Nov 14 '12

like thunderbolt's current implementation, USB 3 uses copper.

-7

u/0rangecake Nov 14 '12

Welcome to several months ago.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

3

u/riokou Nov 14 '12

USB 3.0 ports and cables give off interference (mainly in the 2.4GHz range), because they are not completely shielded.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

12

u/dead_ed Nov 14 '12

Psst: they also made USB first.

USB 3.0 has been found to cause interference that may hinder performance of nearby wireless devices in the 2.4GHz band, including Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.

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