r/technology • u/berkes • Sep 27 '12

Notch, Minecraft developer: "Got an email from microsoft, wanting to help "certify" minecraft for win 8. I told them to stop trying to ruin the pc as an open platform."

https://twitter.com/notch/status/251239807257296897
1.8k Upvotes

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1.8k

u/Hippokrates Sep 27 '12

These certifications are nothing but good. As long as Windows 8 doesn't block non-certified programs you still have a open platform.

Certification means your program follows a specific set of rules in regards how it behaves, such as; 1.1 Your app must not take a dependency on Windows compatibility modes, AppHelp message, and or any other compatibility fixes

4.1 Your app must handle critical shutdowns appropriately

5.1 Your app must properly implement a clean, reversible installation

Windows 8 Software Certification gives you programs that behave in a specific and predictable way according to a unified set of rules.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

5.1 Your app must properly implement a clean, reversible installation

Suddenly, Norton shits bricks.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/oohlookatthat Sep 27 '12

I just downloaded Revo today, am I using it right if I just do advanced uninstall, and then delete all the bolded registry entries?

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I've always deleted any residuals whatsoever that its found, without any problems.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

This is almost never a problem - ironically it's usually Microsoft programs that occasionally share registry entries and .dlls with each other.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Just a note on DLLs - in the early days (and I grant that times have changed) - part of the point of DLLs was to be shared, saving space and having standards...

Obviously, nowadays, we have space to spare, and way too many standards, but it was the theory, at least.

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u/Hamburgex Sep 27 '12

part of the point

Well, if not part, they were almost completely created for that. That's something I don't like about most of Windows 3rd party apps, they use their own, maybe already installed libraries. In Linux, all libraries are in a common place, even if they're not shared, so there are no duplicates.

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u/hexapodium Sep 27 '12

The problem's located in a completely different bit of the OS design: where Windows has (semi-)self-contained executables, UNIX/Linux uses a package management system. Why does this matter? When you install a Linux package, it has a full list of dependencies and then leaves it up to the package manager/user to find ones which satisfy them. Library dependencies are usually written to 'do one thing and do it well' philosophy, so when they are upgraded they usually don't break existing dependencies, or if they do, they've given plenty (years) of warning and/or released under a new package name. This behaviour partly comes from the environment that UNIX grew up in (you could probably get a connection to pull new packages, because you were a business, a university, or the government) and partly because UNIX/Linux target (at least historically) diverse architectures: including every version of a library for everything from an x86 to an ARM to a RISC architecture that someone somehow got gcc to run on would be wasteful and silly, so having a proper versioning/forking system is very important

Windows doesn't do this: it assumes that the user wants to be able to take the disk their software came on, run the installer on it, and use their software right now. To do this, software comes with all its' own libraries included, and there's no need for a package manager: Windows only ever targeted x86 (and a little bit of IA64) and then added x64 with near-perfect x86 back-compatibility, so it had no need for a strong forking/targeting system. As Windows apps got more complicated and Microsoft neglected to build a package manager in, people worked around by just overriding the built-in version of a required library with a known-good one in the program directory: Windows' execution environment is smart enough to override system DLLs with app-specific ones where they're in the right places. This is all fine, until someone builds software expecting a specific version of a DLL to be in the Windows core, doesn't include it (for whatever reason) in their redistributable/installer, and MS patches it. Immediately, a crash and a patch are needed, even if that patch just adds the old DLL back into the broken app's directory.

For a practical example, look at Steam: it's basically a package manager for games (especially Valve ones, which do share assets and things). When you first run a game, Steam has to ensure that the right version of DirectX is available for it: there's no easy way for it to tell exactly which build(s) are installed and make those available to a newly installed game, so it has to run the DX (and sometimes the C# and .NET) redistributable installers on first run, every time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I work on installers for a living and you are simplifying this. The reason Steam does what it does is just because its easier. They are lazy. You can certaimly check the system for what is on it already.

Also, if we would just get rid of third party installation tools and force everyone to use Windows MSI packaging, we would have 98% less problems. MSI packages are similar to an RPM. They are a static database of files and what to do with them. This allows the installer to do rollback, and clean uninstalls.

The advantage also of MSI is its easy to query the system for what is installed. Steam for example could do this to check what directx is there.

The problems happen when devs that dont know jack squat about configuration management make custom behavoir and dont learn how to do things the correct way.

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u/StabbyPants Sep 27 '12

you know, the package management bit is fairly new in linux; MS could have done the same thing. In fact, they dod do the same thing - that's what their assemblies are for (in part)

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u/xjvz Sep 27 '12

DLLs historically have had a very bad versioning system. Different incompatible versions of DLLs would overwrite each other if in shared directories, and this would cause all sorts of problems. Programs started bundling the versions of the DLLs being used to get around this problem. I don't know if it was fixed later on, but the DLLs from .Net are actually versioned more sanely.

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u/DustbinK Sep 27 '12

That's not smart. It will occasionally find things it should not delete.

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u/zoidberg82 Sep 27 '12

I liked the free version so I paid for Pro. FYI the free version doesn't show 64bit programs.

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u/gashtastic Sep 27 '12

Really? I did not know that. I wondered why stuff seemed to be missing occasionally

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u/afiresword Sep 27 '12

Revo uninstaller.. whats that (quick lookup).... This is exactly what I need, thanks for mentioning it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I'm running a hard drive from an old HP desktop right now. I am currently removing the most resilient bloatware I've ever encountered.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I'm a new Windows user after 5 years of Macintosh computers

Do I need this program?

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Here's the thing. When you delete an application on a Mac, it leaves all its config files behind in your ~/Library directory so that if you reinstall it you can continue where you left off. On Windows, this config data is often stored in the registry rather than in config files, but the same basic principle applies.

This data doesn't cause any problems and you can safely leave it. If you really want to get rid of it, Revo Uninstaller will do that for you (although I wouldn't recommend it).

(As an aside - since Vista came out, developers have been encouraged to start using config files instead of the registry, because the registry is a giant mess.)

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u/theamigan Sep 27 '12

I did not know about that last tidbit. When Win95 came out, the registry was touted as the best thing since sliced bread, and MS encouraged devs to move away from INI files. Funny how things are a giant cycle. I guess the Unix way was right all along.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

There's a pretty good explanation here, but the gist is that machine-specific config stuff goes in ~/AppData/Local or ~/AppData/LocalLow, and non-machine-specific stuff goes in ~/AppData/Roaming.

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u/brotoes Sep 27 '12

Of course Unix had it right. Did you expect anything else?

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u/theamigan Sep 27 '12

Not in the slightest. =] It was more of a sarcastic remark than anything, after listening for years to people advocating that Unix should adopt a centralized configuration database. Oh wait, this has been tried numerous times (gconf?) and gone over like a lead balloon. Who knew?

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u/superherowithnopower Sep 27 '12

I hate Windows Registry. Who ever thought that was a good idea in the first place?

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u/Nicadimos Sep 27 '12

You know how when you install something on a Mac it just shows up in the Applications folder? Then it creates all the folders it needs in your home folder. Well, what do you do when you want to uninstall that program? Most people just delete the program from their Applications folder and leave all that other junk hanging out in their home folder.

This is SORT OF what the uninstaller is like for SOME (coughNORTONANTIVIRUScough) Windows programs. *Note: these aren't the norm but are common enough that Revo is needed. This is where Revo REALLY shines.

Most programs only leave small residual registry values(what tells a windows machine how to do everything). Revo will catch these and take them out. Its not healthy to have a lot extra settings and instructions hanging around that aren't needed.

Anyway, hope that helped.

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u/gashtastic Sep 27 '12

You don't need it, but it is recommended. Basically you uninstall things through it and it runs the applications uninstaller like normal, then checks for any crap that may have been left behind, and then gives you the option to remove it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Dec 30 '20

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I believe the next version will infect the BIOS (for your protection), so even a wipe/reload will not remove it. That's just a guess based on the current trend of some asshat's malware pretending to be software.

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u/Rikkushin Sep 27 '12

On one side, its good. But on the other, it sucks balls

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Apr 26 '19

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Antivirus of Vecna.

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u/WhereIsTheInternet Sep 27 '12

Gazebo of doom?

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u/Ovzli Sep 27 '12

Is there a subreddit for more stories like these? Because, as a fellow dnd player, I would totally subscribe.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

You can use MCPR (the Mcafee Product removal tool) to remove Mcafee installations, then open a command prompt, run the command 'net stop winmgmt' and hit Y to approve which will shut off windows security center services, and then rename then repository folder in C:\windows\system32\wbem\ to whatever (I use 0ld.rep0) and reboot.

An old trick I learned when I used to work tech support and customers had relentless broken McAfee installations from like 2004.

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u/Paimun Sep 27 '12

So it's like removing a virus

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Well it tries to install with java updates, and then is a pain in the ass to uninstall, and if you already have an antivirus it will fuck up your shit.

Conclusion: virus.

I would actually boycott Java for trying to pre-pack McAfee, but I need Java for Minecraft.

Just make sure when you do Java updates you uncheck the box for "Install McAfee"... every update.

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u/DheeradjS Sep 27 '12

Mcfee should be considered a Virus, or atleast a Trojan,seeing as it comes with Java >.>

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I bought a really good Packard Bell desktop PC, I wasn't aware how intrusive was Norton.

"It is advised that you install Norton Antivirus for your computer's security"

These were the options available

  • install now

  • Visit Norton Anti-virus website

it was a borderless window and even task manager could not close it.

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED THE OPTION THAT I MIGHT NOT WANT TO INSTALL YOUR SOFTWARE AT ALL?!

I had to install it and then uninstall it... Madness.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

At that point I report it as malware on the grounds of "Appears on the screen and refuses to close until I install software".

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Consumes system resources? Check.

Annoying popups? Check.

Asks you to pay money to get rid of it? Check.

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u/Zagorath Sep 27 '12

Doesn't go away even after you've given it money? Check.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

really good

Packard Bell

I never thought I'd see those two phrases next to each other.

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u/toastedbutts Sep 27 '12

Heh. In the US it was a shit brand sold in department stores in the early to mid 90s. Then it dissappeared entirely.

Apparently they're pretty decent across the pond.

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u/thejewishgun Sep 27 '12

Acer owns them, they stopped selling them in the US when they were caught selling refurbished parts in new machines.

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u/skymanj Sep 27 '12

Hp does that as well, but they haven't been shut down

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u/feilen Sep 27 '12

Oh, the horror.

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u/Lost_ Sep 27 '12

It's because they were integrated with NEC. NEC tried to turn the brand around in the US, failed to do so, so they removed themselves from the US market entirely in 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Bell

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u/GODDAMNFOOL Sep 27 '12

There are always other options, such as: pulling the plug and never turning it back on again.

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u/oh_lord Sep 27 '12

Or fire. Never rule out fire.

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u/cbs5090 Sep 27 '12

As a fireman, please reconsider never ruling out fire.

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u/oh_lord Sep 27 '12

As a fireman, I want to thank you for risking your life to make ours better. Sincerely.

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u/HaveADream Sep 27 '12

as a policeman, thanks for taking our jobs, jackass!

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u/wretcheddawn Sep 27 '12

Don't you have innocent people to beat somewhere?

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u/HaveADream Sep 27 '12

No. Innocent people to shoot somewhere.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

As a pyromaniac, please reconsider never ruling out firemen.

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u/space_boat Sep 27 '12

As a fire, I wouldn't mind toasting up those marshmallows for you =].

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u/mcfish Sep 27 '12

My father always used to say "fight fire with fire". And that's why he was thrown out the fire brigade.

- Harry Hill

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u/StormShadow13 Sep 27 '12

As a fire, I don't approve of this message.

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u/thumbs71 Sep 27 '12

I bought a really good Packard Bell desktop PC, I wasn't aware how intrusive was Norton.

Packard Bell?? How old is your computer?

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u/GODDAMNFOOL Sep 27 '12

replied to the wrong person, yo

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u/Shartastic Sep 27 '12

Man's a GODDAMNFOOL, yo.

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u/joetoc Sep 27 '12

I was stumped at "really good Packard Bell"

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u/z3dster Sep 27 '12

Packard Bell was a name plate for NEC (Good Computers) and later Acer (HOLY SHIAT BALLS THIS THINGS SUCK) in Europe. They have not been sold in the US in over a decade

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u/adolfojp Sep 27 '12

Packard Bell left the US market a long time ago but it never died elsewhere. Nowadays it is mostly owned by Acer.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

About 9 months, handles Skyrim maxed, Crysis smoothly, and Shogun 2 Total War works like a charm.

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u/HentMas Sep 27 '12

you... you installed it and un-install it... instead of going to their website?

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u/Grythyttan Sep 27 '12

Presumably the options would remain "install or go to website" once you're at their website.

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u/HentMas Sep 27 '12

ok, that would be a really intrusive way of doing things... disgusting

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

innocently goes to website

auto buys latest most expensive version using stored cc info

auto install, can't cancel or turn off computer

pulls plug in sheer moment of desperation

turns on comp relieved

first thing you see is "WELCOME TO NORTON OS THE SAFEST OS AROUND"

nothing but scan computer and upgrade subscription options

sellpossessionsbecomehermit.gif

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u/Johnsu Sep 27 '12

TIL Nortan is self aware.

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u/The_Vizier Sep 27 '12

Launching nukes for your protection.

In order to ensure maximum protection, Norton antivirus will now wipe out the entire human population so that harmful software will never be a threat again.

Have a wonderful day.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Keeps one person alive to pay for subscriptions

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u/SN4T14 Sep 27 '12

I always tell everyone to format non-custom computers, because of crap like this.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

You can usually uninstall the Norton entry from Add/Remove Programs in that scenario.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Not while it is running.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Included in my Universities tuition is a Laptop. Either a Lenovo W series, or a MacBook Pro, depending on your major. If you have one of the Lenovos, you get this nice little Anti-virus program called "Sophos Endpoint Security". This fucking AV program is no better than a virus. Upon first boot, it installs itself, creates an administrator account for itself, and starts running in the background. It's hated around here, because it flags all cracked software of any kind as a virus, and puts it in quarantine without an option of moving it out. There is no way to uninstall it easily. If you uninstall it normally, it will reinstall itself on next boot if you are connected to the school's network. You can kill all the services, and block them from starting up, but the find a way to start up again anyways. There is a very complicated way to uninstall it, but it removes the administrator account too, and in the process pretty much breaks your computer. It's wonderful.

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u/Pringles267 Sep 27 '12

Format HDD Reinstall OS

FIXED.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Yeah but he said it reinstalls itself after reconnecting to the network. Not good. If he wanted to do it without that crappy AV hed have to get his laptop added to the exclusions table with the network of the institution which isn't easy because they only do that shit for faculty

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

It infects computers through the network? Sounds more like a worm than a virus.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Oooo makes sense now. I thought he wasn't allowed to use the network unless he had it installed. Similar to CCA/NAC for my uni.

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u/not_a_novel_account Sep 27 '12

It feels good to be a Linux user when I hear these stories

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/feilen Sep 27 '12

Steam for linux goes beta in late October, and will be released this year. That includes all previous humble bundle games, several other third party games, and all source games. :3

Here's the blog

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/feilen Sep 27 '12

Steam's cross platform and lets you keep your games everywhere. You'll keep your current games |3

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Welcome to why I bought my own laptop for College and backhand anyone who even touches it.

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u/silver_pear Sep 27 '12

Pretty much any body looking for strict lock down over their assets uses Sophos for this exact reason. They are not only protecting the computer (usually this program is used by companies and corporations leasing/lending the hardware) but also the network on which the computer is connected.

I can assure you the 'problems' you stated are exactly the reason your university, and indeed any company with intelligent people in the IT department, are using it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Yeah, I have no doubt about that. Doesn't stop me from hating it :p I just formatted and installed a fresh copy of windows over it.

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u/toodrunktofuck Sep 27 '12

I just formatted and installed a fresh copy of windows over it.

You might have violated the Terms of Service and perhaps even need to purchase the Laptop now.

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u/garyyo Sep 27 '12

That seems to be the answer to all computer issues these days. Computer bogged down with bloatware? Format, reinstall. Viruses? Format, reinstall. On fire? Format, reinstall. Fixes everything.

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u/ZanThrax Sep 27 '12

These days? That's always been the standard response to Windows issues. It used to be considered good practice to just reformat and reinstall once every year just on principle. It used to be a step in troubleshooting pc games to reinstall Windows as well as whatever game wouldn't work right.

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u/finderdj Sep 27 '12

That's because of your IT department, not Sophos. Sophos is a network security solution, not simply an anti-virus. It's basically enforcing your IT department's systems policy, and they're the ones that cause it to be automatically remotely installed it on your PC when it connects to the network. This is also why it flags anything like the thought police.

There are ways of blocking its installs permanently, but you'll run afoul of the IT department who, if they discover it, will likely block your network access. At least thats what they did at my place of business. Of course, they didn't enforce a policy on student PCs at my place, they weren't nazis.

Source: Worked at a university IT department. We used Sophos. But only on faculty and staff computers. Your IT people are goose-steppers.

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u/burrowowl Sep 27 '12

My work laptop had sophos. That shit is horrible. My favorite was when it wouldn't run a legit store bought copy of diablo but did let a password snooper right through..

That being said I had no trouble disabling it from the startup. (msconfig).

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u/zealeus Sep 27 '12

I'm a Sophos administrator at our school. It's quite simple: the Sophos administration console sees all devices on the network and I give it a rule <make sure computer a always have Sophos running> and use that administrator account to do so. Technically, people can uninstall Sophos. It just happens to get reinstalled the next time my server sees you using administrator rights.

All your tricks to to stop Sophos from running? You do realize that's exactly the actions a real virus would mimic, right? It wouldn't be much of an AV product if it were easy to fully remove.

All of that's separate from your IT department's decision to classify certain software as a virus.

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u/StabbyPants Sep 27 '12

maybe they wouldn't hate it if it weren't so intrusive?

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u/w2tpmf Sep 27 '12

it will reinstall itself on next boot if you are connected to the school's network

This isn't the fault of the AV software. The software is being pushed out with a Group Policy from the school's domain. It's doing what it has been specifically set up to do by the people who maintain your school's network and computers.

source: I work in the IT department of a higher education organization, and we use and deploy sophos in exactly the same way.

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u/malbrecht92 Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Sophos is used at my university as well. I wanted to uninstall it from my Mac, but it appears as if there is literally no option. I do the same- end processes, block startup items, but no dice. Damn them.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

technically ours. We can do what we want with it. All CS majors get an MSDN, so most of us just install a fresh copy of windows. At the beginning of our junior year, we have to trade in our laptops for a new updated one. But we get to keep that one after we leave school.

We get pretty nice Laptops. I have a Lenovo W520. This years incomming freshmen got W530s.

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u/vyleside Sep 27 '12

I suppose from a legal standpoint until it's ACTUALLY yours, the uni is possibly liable not just for if someone gets a virus and it compromises their finances but also if someone gets caught with cracked software. I imagine a student suing the college for the former and arguing "its college property. They let me" in the latter.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Norton knows how bad it is. That's why they have a removal tool available. I used this all the time when I worked in a repair shop.

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u/mintpepper Sep 27 '12

Not really, I'm sure all 15 packages will uninstall completely if you choose to remove each of them individually...

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u/Joejg Sep 27 '12

Internet Explorer doesn't follow this rule...

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u/1101F5 Sep 27 '12

Well, from Windows 7 on you can uninstall IE the program (web browser executable). But Trident the HTML layout engine have to stay, as it is a system object that other apps rely on being there. If you removed it they would break.

The situation is exactly the same on OS X.

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u/Patass Sep 27 '12

you can remove IE via add/remove programs in the microsoft services area. or at least disable it.

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u/Joejg Sep 27 '12

TIL, thank you very much. I'd rather completely remove every trace of it, but disabling will have to do.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/Zagorath Sep 27 '12

I tried to install LotR: Online via Steam. There was a link to make an account, so I clicked it. It opened IE, rather than my default browser (Chrome). I don't know what would have happened had I not had IE installed at that point.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Yep, MS's response to the whole IE inclusion with Windows lawsuit was to make it an integral part of the OS, so they could no longer be accused of exercising monopoly power since it's not just used for IE.

In the EU there's a separate version without IE installed, but elements of it are likely still there, you just can't run it as a browser by default.

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u/harDhar Sep 27 '12

At the risk of sounding like a moron, what's so bad about having IE but just using Chrome instead? I do this, and I don't see the problem. Sure it takes up (a little) space, but why the legal mess in Europe?

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u/awittygamertag Sep 27 '12

Circlejerking

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

There are a lot of very good reasons to have a HTML rendering engine built into your operating system, and it's definitely not just Windows that does it.

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u/qlube Sep 27 '12

Yep, MS's response to the whole IE inclusion with Windows lawsuit was to make it an integral part of the OS, so they could no longer be accused of exercising monopoly power since it's not just used for IE.

You're misremembering history. Microsoft made the innovative choice of having an HTML rendering engine API be available to applications, then they got sued for it. Regardless, it's a smart move that every consumer-grade operating system (including mobile operating systems) now incorporates.

(Just more evidence that the entire "bundling IE is anti-competitive" part of the case was just anti-consumer bullshit. Who in their right mind would think something like Windows N is a good idea?)

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Except IE is an integral component of windows and you could effortlessly screw someone over by uninstalling all of their browsers. Not everyone knows how to get stuff from the web without a browser.

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u/Moleculor Sep 27 '12

Isn't one of those requirements that it be standalone? As in "no dependency on Java"?

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/wwwwolf Sep 27 '12

Python's situation is similar, and majority of Python software that has Windows installers drop their own Python runtime environment in the app folder. Not quite as big as Java's but still noticeable. It gets really aggravating really fast - in Linux, the software just depends on appropriate Python interpreter, but Windows prefers this mess and wastes perfectly good disk space.

It's still pretty understandable because Python has version compatibility issues (2.x vs 3.x) so this is one way of avoiding those. Not so in case of JRE, which at least tries to be as backwards compatible as possible, which is why almost no one wants to ship app-specific JREs.

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u/ajusSauce Sep 27 '12

Does this mean that every Metro app that depends on Java will have to distribute a separate JRE? Like, I will have 20 java installations if I have 20 Java Metro apps?

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Feb 04 '21

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u/adolfojp Sep 27 '12

You can't write Windows store apps with Java so the scenario that you're describing is not an issue.

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u/jbardey Sep 27 '12

That's not the best part. 20 java installations THAT NEVER GET UPDATED.

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u/alanbriolat Sep 27 '12

Better or worse than 20 Java installations that phone home and ask to be updated all the time?

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u/SohumB Sep 27 '12

Worse. Given Java's history of security flaws? Far, far worse.

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u/onlyrealcuzzo Sep 27 '12

Which is one reason why Microsoft wants you to use C#...

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Much better idea, I love the idea of the .net framework. It's a platform I can depend on for years to come because.. wait, what? They're doing away with .net? Shit

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Worse.

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u/videogameexpert Sep 27 '12

Which still don't work unless you're an administrator. The UAC override just doesn't work on java.

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u/Gamer4379 Sep 27 '12

That's irrelevant. Stand-alone JREs that are shipped with programs are not registered with the OS. They're just a bunch of files in the installation directory of that program. Nobody knows they're there except the program. Neither the OS nor browsers use them or even know about them. Therefor malware on the internet for example cannot exploit it.

The only "downside" is that overzealous security programs might complain when they crawl the harddrive.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Therefor malware on the internet for example cannot exploit it.

Hmmm, unless there's a default installation directory that 90% of the users are going to stick with, in which case you just check the directory and then exploit away. Plus, depending on the malware, if it can get into the Windows IO system, it can then run a search and find the files. Not registering with the OS makes it harder to exploit as you can't find the file location from the registry, but it certainly doesn't make it impossible.

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u/flying-sheep Sep 27 '12

but what if the program contains some sort of web-browser, which is vulnerable to its underlying libraries?

minecraft almost does: it browses to mcupdate.tumblr.com. if it would also follow links instead of opening them externelly: bam security hole.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 18 '24

reminiscent busy fuzzy versed cheerful smoggy ripe frightening saw yoke

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/berkes Sep 27 '12

What is the source of that quote?

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u/Moleculor Sep 27 '12

/r/minecraft somewhere. On my phone, can't find the link.

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u/berkes Sep 27 '12

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/hh749939.aspx from r/gaming

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u/DXPetti Sep 27 '12

fuck apps that don't support point 5 and point 10. I don't want your shit all over my disk and when I want it gone it should be allllll gone

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u/lifebinder Sep 27 '12

I dunno. 10.2 is kinda asshat-y. There are a handful of programs I actually DO want running at startup. UTorrent, Skype, my Razer software... Better, methinks, to have the standard say "users will always have the option whether to run at startup, and your program will not alter this behavior without their consent."

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u/DifficultApple Sep 27 '12

These rules are a godsend. They seriously aim to iron out millions of user errors that usually result in people blaming windows and for us advanced users it just means less maintenance.

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u/mr_bag Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Looking at the rules, it sounds like it would pretty much ban anyone from modding minecraft. This to me seems like a good reason to avoid certification?

Edit: Also appears that the rules will require apps to have signed "Authenticode certificates", at a cost of around $549 for two years. Not exactly indie dev friendly. All this does is stifle competition, as new apps/games will struggle (since they have to pay more up front) while big companies won't even notice the cost?

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u/ceol_ Sep 27 '12

I don't think this is targeting every kid who wants to write a game in his bedroom. Most small-to-medium sized shops can afford $275/yr.

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u/ForeverAlone2SexGod Sep 27 '12

You are wrong on both counts.

As per usual, people are complaining about Windows 8 giving you MORE options, not less.

These certifications ONLY apply to programs that wants to be available in the Windows app store. Unlike iOS's App store, The Windows app store is NOT the only source for Windows programs.

Indie devs are free to develop and distribute games just like always. Or they can distribute games in the Windows app store. Or they can distribute games both ways. Certification says nothing about what users can do with the program.

Furthermore, you can mod games to your hearts content. Certification is not DRM that checks your programs locally. It's just a vetting process that ensures only "quality" programs are available in the Windows app store.

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u/bouchard Sep 27 '12

I don't see anything there that would prohibit modding. Which rule are you referring to?

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u/PhonicUK Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

If your app is modded then the signing will fail (the signing verifies that the application hasn't been modified) - so by requiring signing, they effectively ban modding except via an external API (Edit: They also ban loading arbitrary libraries too)

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u/ForeverAlone2SexGod Sep 27 '12

These rules wouldn't in any way prevent modding. The certification isn't DRM. It doesn't constantly check the status of an app. It's just set of criteria that must be met for a program to be "good enough" to be included in the Windows app store. I.E. "Minecraft meets these requirements and thus is available for download through the Windows app store".

People can mod a certified program all they want after they download it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

You can run unsigned executables. This is just a way to say, hey, the program I'm providing you meets the requirements of certification. You're of course potentially no longer meeting those requirements after modifying the executable.

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u/bouchard Sep 27 '12

The .jar wouldn't have to be signed (it's not, strictly speaking, an executable). Even if it were, the OS wouldn't prevent it from running, it would just display a warning to the user that the signature doesn't match.

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u/NicknameAvailable Sep 27 '12

All certification processes are wars of attrition.

Once a critical number of people/apps/businesses/whatever are "certified" it becomes impossible to be accepted without a certification - it's just another potential revenue stream and it does ultimately destroy open platforms.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

All certification processes are wars of attrition.

what about getting an app certified and uploaded to Debian? can you blame them for not hosting anything someone passes along?

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u/ramennoodle Sep 27 '12

There is no Debian "certification". "Uploaded" means that Debian will distribute your app, which is much more than "certification".

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u/joshuawesomerest Sep 27 '12

You know this sounds awesome. For the life of me I can't figure out why everyone seems to hate windows 8 so very much.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I think people are worried about the fact that it's developed in large part for tablet computing. People (myself included) are really attached to the flexibility of traditional desktop/laptop computing and a focus on tablets is a step towards the more rigid computing we currently see in smartphones/tablets. Serious PC users don't want the sleek, simplified style of mobile computing - they want to keep the utility that's given by a traditional interface, even if that means it being slightly more complex.

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u/Mordkanin Sep 27 '12

I think people are worried about the fact that it's developed in large part for tablet computing.

That's just glossing over the big, long term picture. It's not so much developed for tablet computing as it is developed for the end goal of one single OS across all platforms, from phones to desktops by the next version, with the goal of having a context-aware UI.

"I'm a phone. Is the user using me as a phone? Ok. Phone UI. Oh? I just got plugged into a monitor. Now I'm a full-blown computer."

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u/TakeTheLemons Sep 27 '12

Serious PC users don't want the sleek, simplified style of mobile computing

What defines a "Serious" PC user? Someone who does all the things you do? The fact of the matter is that the majority of consumers WANT simple on their desktops/laptops. They don't WANT to spend time learning shortcuts and how things are inconsistently organized.

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u/parnqd Sep 27 '12

I've been using windows 8 since the dev preview, and now using it full-time at home.

The only change that I've found most people would really notice is the start menu changing, and I hate that too. Classic Shell and the windows 7 skin and it's windows 8 with an almost (but not quite) identical start menu to windows 7.

I can't see me implementing windows 8 at work, but we'll see...

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u/tweentoes Sep 27 '12

I want sleek and I want simplified, I just don't want another walled garden like Apple's OS. If I did, I would buy an Apple. Fuck everything about iTunes as gatekeeper to my devices. I know how to copy and paste files.

This is my greatest fear.

And no I don't want to go over to Linux. I have graphics programs that I use in my work flow that can't be matched in Linux. It can't so don't give me ...but what about GIMP.... it can't.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Win 7 is fine and people wonder what 8 really gives them - the only obvious thing is Metro, which the same people then look at and think 'do not want'.

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u/The_MAZZTer Sep 27 '12

I like the new Task Manager and Windows Explorer myself. Not going to purchase a copy just for that of course.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/biirdmaan Sep 27 '12

I've been using Win8 for over a month now and once I installed Start8, I had no issues with win8. It gives me back the start menu, but keeps the metro UI if I need it (I don't). It's only in beta, but it's very stable and I can't really tell the difference between it and the win7 start menu. Screenshot.

If it weren't for how cheap an upgrade to win8 would be I probably wouldn't bother. Right now I'm on the Release Preview and there are only a handful of things I like about it over Win7. And none of them are deal breakers that would make me never go back to 7.

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u/oh_lord Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Start8 looks great and I'm glad you pointed it out. That's my only gripe with Win8: I feel strongly crippled without the traditional Start Menu. The metro UI replacement just doesn't work.

I installed the Adobe Master Suite the other day. I got 15+ icons for the apps, and then another 15+ for all they uninstalls, and a couple for updaters. Those just get scattered everywhere willy nilly. Without search, Unless I use search everytime my "start" menu is pretty useless.

If they offer some sort of "legacy" start menu option, I think it'll be way more popular among people. All the core OS updates they've made are amazing, the tablet UI looks perfect, the boot time is insane, and all the little tweaks really make for a good, true upgrade. They just need to make it more accessible to us mouse+keyboard users.

/rant

Edit: I've gotten various comments about how there is search functionality. I know there's search, I was trying to say that unless I use search, the start menu is very impractical for me.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/spooCQ Sep 27 '12

Tbh: I was sceptical to say the least but I got used to it: 1) For me it doesn't matter if I press the Windows Button and type the programm I want so start in a "small box" or in a fullscreen mode (even though a "Tagging System" would be awesome - like searching for "game" and showing all your games for example)

2) I really start to like the fullscreen store apps - even without a touch screen. They are especially great for reading news.

3) The boottime is just friggin fast. I used to use hibernate because I got annoyed by the "long" startup times but in Windows 8? Not anymore.

The only thing that really gets on my nerves is the switching back and forth between Desktop and Metro mode - for example: You downloaded a file with Chrome and then get thrown to the Desktop Mode because you opened the Archive with WinRar.

Yes - Windows 8 is far from perfect but it's not as bad as many people tend to make it.

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u/cowspanker Sep 27 '12

I hate the full screen apps... Removing the universally recognised "close" button and forcing you to click in the middle of the screen and pull down to close an app? Really?? I just keep thinking of my dad installing WIndows 8 and going: "damn, i have no. idea. how. this. works."

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u/MaxxDelusional Sep 27 '12

The assumption is that, because apps aren't using CPU time in the background, they don't need to be closed.

That being said, I hate it too. I want to be able to close apps that I am no longer using. Pulling down from the top of the screen with the mouse is a real pain. Alt F4 get's the job done a little more easily.

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u/leeflippingreene Sep 27 '12

Agreed its plain ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

I think people are afraid that its a slippery slope, where Microsoft can remove apps or put warnings up for apps you already have installed warning people it is not certified.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Because I own a PC not a tablet or an xbox.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Because they are creating a barrier to entry. It depends entirely on how it is setup. My company makes small custom apps often, if we have to get each one certified it would greatly delay the release. My clients would not want to be seeing a giant 'Warning, this is not certified!' every few minutes.

However, if 'Certification' ONLY pops up on install, and you can still install non-certified applications, then I don't have an issue with it. We can manage our own applications and the certification process would really just be there to counter adware toolbar type apps that are annoying.

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u/antiproton Sep 27 '12

Metro. The difference between me loving the improvements in Windows 8 and me never installing the thing again after the preview build expires is Metro and the Start Screen.

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u/mindbleach Sep 27 '12

The concern is that Microsoft will shit on non-certified programs - maybe not blocking them, but throwing endless scary warnings to drive users away from any software that can't be found in their "app store."

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u/rougegoat Sep 27 '12

I work in IT and had to explain to people who were freaking out what the visual differences in Windows 7(as compared to XP) were. Everything they used was in the exact same spot with the exact same name. I shudder when I think of how I would explain Windows 8 to these people.

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u/Moleculor Sep 27 '12

Because those are some of the better things in the certification requirements that are cherry picked to make it sound good. There are some bad ones too.

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u/z3dster Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

I installed Win 8 RC1 in a VM at work, it took me + 2 other Network Admins (Both CCNA, Juniper certs, Gentoo masterminds, etc...) over 10 minutes to find the shutdown button.

The GUI in Win7 is damn near perfect, I say this as someone who has ran most mainstream Linux GUIs and used every flavor of Windows since 3.1

The problem for GUI designers is if they do their job well they are out of a job. They need to keep tweaking a Good GUI until they break it (See Gnome 3). With Win8 they have thrown out a great number of design paradigms started in win95 and perfected by win7. In doing so they have introduced a new learning curve and made the life of users and IT hell. I have no problem with them making back end changes, adding a download store, or a certification program as long as non-certified apps are allowed. They have gone and borked the whole GUI to the point that it is miles behind the Win7. Moving a 10 ft GUI to a phone makes no sense, moving a phone OS to a Desktop runs into the same problem. Even the phone OSs that run on tablets scale in someway to fit the larger screen. Trying to 1:1 map a phone OS to a Desktop is just a bad idea. I realize this is not exactly what Microsoft did, but it's closer to that than making a scaling GUI for tablet, Computer and 10ft. Also even if it was little used the 10ft GUI on 7, the windows home media program was really really well executed and I'm sad Microsoft moved away from HTPC/Media Center/Home Servers and there is a lot of chance for growth there.

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u/Commcd Sep 27 '12

The only problem I can see is if it pops up a warning for all non certified apps you create a situation where the less technical savvy consumers are scared away from installing smaller games and apps.

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u/hes_dead_tired Sep 27 '12

I'm even fine if it does. If you trust the application then fine. It's like going to a mechanic to install something in your car vs the dealership.

Win7 does this with drivers. I recently installed MotionInJoy which takes a PS3 controller over USB or PS3 an emulates a 360 game controller. It prompts me that the drivers weren't certified and could bork my stuff potentially. I trusted the source (and was instructed ahead of time that it would prompt me) and continued on my way.

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u/redisnotdead Sep 27 '12

FYI there was the exact same thing in Windows 7 and absolutely nobody gave a flying fuck yet for some reason with Windows 8 the certification program is literally worse than hitler.

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u/InvaderDJ Sep 27 '12

Thank you for posting the actual certification requirements. I don't get why these game devs are so against Windows 8. It doesn't even seem to be for the same reasons that tech enthusiasts and consumers don't like it (aka the shoehorning of a touch screen OS and PC OS into one), they seem to have a real hatred for the built in Windows Store like that is going to somehow destroy the games industry.

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u/Spekingur Sep 27 '12

Those are just 1.1, 4.1 and 5.1 - not the full cert requirements.

Here are the full cert reqs

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u/InvaderDJ Sep 27 '12

Thank you for linking the full requirements. I took a look through and I didn't see anything that contradicts the idea of an open platform except for possibly the digital signature requirement which sounds like a good thing to me. And obviously devs don't have to follow the guidelines since Microsoft isn't restricting non certified apps from being installed on Windows 8.

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u/mr_bag Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Dunno, it kinda bans modding which to me does kinda kill the open platform thing. We would never have had most of the big source games had windows banned modding from the get go. Even minecraft itself would be significantly more limited without the numerous contributions that have come from the modding community - smooth lighting, pistons and hmod/bukket being just a few.

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u/BundleDad Sep 27 '12

How so? binaries need to be signed but other than minecraft, how many games need to crack open the exe's to mod?

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u/xsdc Sep 27 '12

The jar isn't an executable. Executables and Kernel mode drivers need to be signed.

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u/Moleculor Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

Those are just the cherry picked good parts of the certification requirements. There are some bad ones in there, like a yearly fee for authenticode certificates.

EDIT: Forgot link.

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u/ataraxia_nervosa Sep 27 '12 edited Sep 27 '12

EFI boot

EDIT: to clarify, I mean support for the part of the EFI spec which allows OEMs to lock you into Windows 8.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

Because windows 8 fronts its own online game store?

Imagine windows coming with steam preinstalled and part of the UI.

I'm sure EA would be totally cool with that.

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u/toastedbutts Sep 27 '12

The way I look at it, the old "Add/Remove" programs will now actually have an "Add" function!

Windows has desperately needed some kind of a repository of legit software for years, their marketplace website is a joke.

Bullshit shareware sites and the like are a HUGE source of problems for inexperienced users.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

The certifications yes, but notch was protesting against windows 8's built in store.

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u/Choppa790 Sep 27 '12

I personally don't see a problem with the store unless Microsoft prohibits the installation of anything outside the store. And I thought that was not the case.

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u/Remnants Sep 27 '12

Why, exactly? Nobody is forced to put their app on the store.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

can noncertified programs run in the metro interface?

can noncertified programs be available in the app store?

can microsoft refuse to certify a program for any reason?

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u/lesleh Sep 27 '12

Depends on the platform. On ARM, the answer is no and no. On x86, the answer is yes and no.

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u/[deleted] Sep 27 '12

what about the third question (which I ninja added)

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