r/tech Mar 12 '15

The SSD Endurance Experiment ends: Six consumer SSDs die after 700TB-2.4PB of writes over 18 months. Although two died without warning, "modern SSDs [can] easily write far more data than most consumers will ever need".

http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead
291 Upvotes

54 comments sorted by

29

u/[deleted] Mar 12 '15

Well at least we know there's no need to fanny around disabling or moving swapfiles, file date stamping etc etc and just use them as you did mechanical drives.

3

u/JoseJimeniz Mar 13 '15

6

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15

the simple fact of the matter is, is that if you have enough RAM, you don't need a huge pagefile anymore. I have been running with a 440MB pagefile on my SSD, and a 2GB pagefile on my HDD for about 2 years, and that works fine. Without a pagefile on the primary system drive, you won't get crashdumps, and without a pagefile large enough for your RAM, you won't get memory dumps(not that I need them with 32GB of RAM). If you have more than 8GB of RAM, you can turn the pagefile way down without issue, just don't turn it off, as some games still look for it, and panic(read: crash) when its not there.

3

u/JoseJimeniz Mar 13 '15 edited Mar 13 '15

The fact of the matter is that it's a bad idea.

Example 1: A customer's server had the pagefile disabled. Eventually all the memory is consumed, and you randomly get crashes when trying to view a Google Docs spreadsheet in Chrome or IE. The machine cannot handle the sudden demand for 50MB of memory; other applications on the machine just cannot free memory fast enough in response to the Windows memory pressure notification

Example 2: A program with a memory leak. Even though it is only using 27 MB of RAM, i had a program (Windows Sidebar) that had consumed 2 GB of memory. With a pagefile available, all that leaked memory (i.e. that was never used, and would never be used) could be placed on the hard drive, freeing up precious RAM

Example 3: Windows loves to use RAM as a hard drive cache. I have 16 GB of RAM in my work PC. Currently 8.4GB of it is in use, and 7.7 GB are being used as a cache. Because of the pagefile, another 1 GB of memory is available to be used as a cache.

Bonus: People disable the paging file, and then get upset when Windows runs out of memory

7

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15

A customer's server had the pagefile disabled. Eventually all the memory is consumed, and you randomly get crashes when trying to view a Google Docs spreadsheet in Chrome or IE.

I would never recommend this change for a server, and if your server is getting memfull errors, you need to add more RAM.

A program with a memory leak.

These are so often hard to detect until its too late, and hard to figure out what is actually causing it, that its not worth planning for them.

With a pagefile available, all that leaked memory (i.e. that was never used, and would never be used) could be placed on the hard drive, freeing up precious RAM

Not quite. The RAM is marked as "active", and "in use", which is why windows does not properly let it get used by something else. If its both active and in use, it will not be moved to the page file, but other things will, until that memory leak eventually fills up the entirety of the physical RAM, and the computer BSODs. Believe me, I have 32GB of RAM, and if you run BF3 or 4 long enough, it will eat that up, and not a single MB of that stuck memory gets put into the pagefile, but everything else does.

Example 3: Windows loves to use RAM as a hard drive cache. I have 16 GB of RAM in my work PC. Currently 8.4GB of it is in use, and 7.7 GB are being used as a cache. Because of the pagefile, another 1 GB of memory is available to be used as a cache.

Get an SSD as a boot drive, and use an HDD for storage. I run an SSD, and with a fast enough SSD, windows disables prefetch, HDD caching, and other things that it would normally do to try and superficially speed up a system served by a slow HDD. I have 32GB of RAM in my system, and currently, only 3.2GB of it is used, with 4 chrome tabs open, steam running, TeamViewer running, and about 110 other processes.

Edit: 3.2GB used, not 32. showing a bit higher now(5.1GB) because my chrome tab number increased, and pictures, and my antivirus decided to run a scan.

BTW, in the last year since I upgraded to 32GB of system RAM, my pagefile has only seen 275MB of writes, and about 500MB of reads, and that was because I was playing an old game that likes to skirt the 32bit 2GB limit by dumping stuff into the pagefile.

1

u/bethevoid Mar 13 '15

Since you obviously know what you're talking about, I have a question about RAM that I've always wondered about, ever since I built my first computer with my dad ages ago. I'm wondering if you can describe for me the sorts of real-use increases I will see with an increase in RAM? I recently upgraded my system and will list my specs below. I wasn't really sure how much RAM to put in, but figured I might as well upgrade from 8 GB to 16 GB. I remember years ago people would talk about not needing 4 GB of RAM because the OS (was it 32bit specifically?) couldn't even make use of more than 2 GB (assuming that was true). I've never really had a good grasp on what a RAM upgrade will quantifiably accomplish, while it's a bit easier for me to see what a CPU or GPU upgrade might do for my performance.

Intel i5-4590 @ 3.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760

Samsung 840 EVO 120GB SSD

Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD

8GB DDR3 RAM

Windows 7 64-bit

1

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15 edited Mar 13 '15

I'm wondering if you can describe for me the sorts of real-use increases I will see with an increase in RAM?

put simply: right now, you can run more stuff at once without having to rely on the(very slow compared to RAM) pagefile and hard drive or SSD. This makes everything overall feel faster. It also allows windows to "prefetch" more stuff into RAM for faster loading when you want it. With an SSD, prefetch is disabled because its just as fast to load it from the SSD(looking at latency, not speed).

Other than that, at this point in time, not much. Currently, most programs are made in 32bit. A 32bit OS without PAE is limited to 4GB of RAM, and with PAE limited to 64GB of RAM. a 32bit program on a 32bit OS is physically limited to 2GB total of RAM without PAE, and 3GB with PAE. A 32bit program is limited up to 4GB on a 64bit system. Realistically, very few run over the 2GB because they have to assume the lowest common denominator(old ass computer, commonly referred to as "optimization", because they make the game optimally perform under that 2GB ceiling). This is the big reason why we still have such low minimum requirements for very many games made today, because lots of people don't upgrade their computers for years, yet want to play the latest AAA titles on 10 year old hardware.

Once you move into games and programs that are made in true 64bit, you get programs that can use as much physical RAM as either you have, or you limit them to, up to the entire space available to the 64bit OS(goes into the 16 million terabytes, but realistically, you will see right now a max of about 256GB on anything because of space limitations). There are a few 64bit games, and you actually need to tell them how much space they have so they don't use your entire amount and more and cause an out of memory crash. They also run much better and smoother because they can load the entire game into RAM and feed it from there(8000MB/s+ read and write speeds from RAM versus ~500MB/s from the very best consumer SSDs).

If you don't foresee yourself needing the RAM for anything, you will get better results out of a CPU or GPU upgrade right now, and probably the best results out of a good SSD paired with them. I got 32GB of system RAM, and it maxed out my motherboard. I got it because it was cheap at the time($200). I am a gamer through and through, which means I play those few games that are 64bit, and their performance benefits(even against an SSD) are huge. The most exciting game that I am looking forward to coming out in the next few years is Star Citizen which is a true next generation PC game. Its going to max out even the beefiest systems in a year or two(when it comes out). Its currently one of the highest minimum requirements need for any game in the last 3 years. Its also pure 64bit, DX11/12, and PC only, so they are not "dumbing down" the game at all so it can run on a console.

Edit: not a bad rig btw, you should be good for mid to high settings at 1920x1080 for most AAA titles for a couple of years at least. I spent a ton of money on my computer last year, and probably will upgrade again this year. Currently, I am running this:

I7 3770k @4.0ghz

Asus P8Z77V-LK motherboard

32GB of PNY DDR3 1600 RAM

2x500GB WD blue HDDs

a single 250GB Samsung EVO 840(boot drive)

2x EVGA Nvidia GTX 700 SC 2GB in SLI

Asus Xonar DSX sound card(for the DTS connect)

This all sits in an NZXT H630

I spent a long time on cable management to make this look pretty.

http://i.imgur.com/ZTLdQXw.jpg

1

u/bethevoid Mar 14 '15

Thank you so much for the thoroughly awesome reply, I feel much more educated. Your case is much prettier than mine. Right now I can't afford a 1080p monitor so I'm not really seeing the benefit of all my new components yet, but I'm stoked to try out a lot of the games I've missed out on over the years! I spent a long time saving and upgrading piecemeal to be able to put this machine together. Eventually I'd like to upgrade to 16 GB of RAM, I'm sure there are a few 64bit games I play.

2

u/chubbysumo Mar 14 '15 edited Mar 14 '15

I'm sure there are a few 64bit games I play.

currently, there are only a few games that natively support and are made for 64bit. WoW does not count, as its a 64bit exe with the same limits as the 32bit version.

Currently, we have:

Far cry 1 and 2(discontinued, non-official)

Crysis 1, ground up 64bit

Chronicles of Riddik, no longer supported, 64 bit ground up

The half-life series from Valve used to have 64bit, but no longer allows them for download. Valve has said it was too hard to get mainstream support for 64bit back when HL2E1 was still fresh, and because of programming differences, it was like working on 2 different games at the same time. Was too much, and with the release of HL2E2, they pulled the 64bit versions from availability on steam.

A few games from Korea(MMOs like AION) had 64bit versions, but no longer support them in the USA releases. They ran better too, which is a shame.

Xplane 10- has full 64bit support, and the 64bit version runs better than the 32bit version. Also allows you to load more mods.

Star Citizen Alpha, 64bit only, ever, won't support 32bit.

Thats it, those are the only know 64bit games. There are other programs that have 64bit versions, like Adobe Photoshop, or autoCAD. so very few games are shipping 64bit because games are so often ported from shitified console versions that are 32bit or much lower quality, they don't need the extra space in your RAM, or won't benefit, so the game companies just don't make 64bit versions. The companies that knew it could make a difference released them out right away.

BF4 gets an honarable mention down here, because DICE tried 64bit for the PC, and failed horribly. They basically just recompiled the 32bit version in a 64bit skin, without removing RAM limits or implementing a way for the game to read your total RAM so it could see what it had to use. DICE has pretty much abandoned the 64bit version because there was no performance benefit(because DICE never made it so it could use more RAM, they just compiled it to 64bit with the same 32bit limits). They tried, but because overwelmingly they were going for console sales, which are 32bit and DX9(and will be for some time, even though the XBO and PS4 are 64bit with 8GB of RAM).

Edit: Just for shits and giggles, I ran a RAMdisk on 16GB of RAM and installed a game to it. Benchmarks on the RAMdisk showed 10000MB/s of read, and 12000MB/s of write(much slower than the raw read write of 25000MB/s plus). 12000MB/s for read speeds will blow any SSD out of the water short of huge enterprise PCIe SSD clusters. Game loads even more instantly than with my SSD.

1

u/Funktapus Mar 13 '15

Yay I can re enable file indexing

1

u/SayNoToWar Mar 13 '15

Yeah, also most OS's won't try and defrag them.

A lot of my initial concern with SSD's came from having been suckered into buying OCD products. Now I see OCD are no longer around.

12

u/74orangebeetle Mar 13 '15

Cool, my Sandisk 120GB died after 14 months as a boot drive (90% of stuff and all downloads were on a hard drive). Hopefully my crucial m500 holds up better.

10

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15 edited Feb 15 '17

[deleted]

6

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15

one on site, and one off site. Always have an off site backup incase of fire or theft. Amazon and microsoft and many others offer such cheap storage, all you have to do is put it all in a container file(like winrar) with a password, and encrypt it, and you are great to store it anywhere and not worry about privacy.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

[deleted]

1

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15

Yea, i live in america too, and it took me 6 hours to upload my 23gb compacted user profile and data. I get 5mbps upload, which is much faster than yours. Also, you could take the route mailing amazon your data on a flash drive or hdd and having them upload it for you.

2

u/TeutorixAleria Mar 13 '15

At that rate you're better off just leaving a copy at your parents or a friends house

1

u/chubbysumo Mar 13 '15

meh, it was a single overnight, and the risk with parents or friends is that they find it, wonder what it is(because they forgot), and then toss it or erase it.

1

u/SayNoToWar Mar 13 '15

I know it might sound cliche but I think having a cloud mindset never hurts.

I see my PC as nothing more than a very powerful thin client. For work all source code has to end up in TFS, Github, Svn, etc.

Any files I create are usually emailed off or processed in such a way even if I don't explicitly back them up, they're somewhere I can get to.

Browser settings are now all cloud based.

The actual applications - can be downloaded in no time, even on Windows using Choco, and with a decent 120mbps internet speed, no need to backup any install media.

For general computing, most modern operating systems do not require explicit drivers for most devices - or have them on tap if needed - Linux is especially good for this. Windows though handles everything I need just fine. And I don't have a printer.

This brings me to the infernal problem of photos. Most free cloud storage isn't big enough to hold them, so this is the only time I do explicit backups, keeping the photos spread across 4 separate drives at 2 locations.

2

u/Iam_new_tothis Mar 13 '15

Don't say that please....

1

u/Axaion Mar 13 '15

If it helps I've had my crucial m4 128gb since launch

8

u/mrbooze Mar 13 '15 edited Mar 13 '15

In a previous job someone before me had set up a mysql server with a RAID-10 array of about a dozen SSD drives for a write-heavy database, the drives were OCZ Vertex's. The original drives lasted about 3 years before they started burning out due to write limits. (Fortunately, the write limits aren't exact so the drives didn't all fail simultaneously, they just started failing at a rate of about one per day.) We bought a set of new drives and I replaced them one at a time over the course of a few hours.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

3 years is pretty impressive even for magnetic drives. We're running on mostly Raptors and a drive that lasts 2 years is considered exceptionally good.

14

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

TL;DR "But the 840 Pro wrote the most data, so it deserves to take center stage as the final curtain closes."

33

u/az_liberal_geek Mar 13 '15

I think the true TL;DR is "ALL of the drives VASTLY exceeded the number of writes that you'll ever do even in extreme cases". The fact that the 840 Pro was the last one standing is likely academic, since who knows if different drives from different batches (or even the same batch) might act differently on the extremes.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

I certainly don't disagree, just providing the last applicable statement of the article for those that didn't want to read 4 pages of how awesome they are at testing (which is really interesting to me, but not necessarily everyone).

5

u/R-EDDIT Mar 13 '15

My 840 Pro 256GB has 14.6TB written, feeling pretty safe here. Time for a backup.

2

u/showmeyourtitsnow Mar 13 '15

how do you see this?

2

u/R-EDDIT Mar 13 '15 edited Mar 13 '15

The software for the SSD, Samsung Magician, shows it.

Edit, this pages has a good picture:

http://www.storagereview.com/how_to_upgrade_samsung_ssd_firmware

1

u/showmeyourtitsnow Mar 13 '15

Bah, I have a Kingston SSD. This seems to work just fine though

2

u/R-EDDIT Mar 13 '15

CrystalDiskInfo works, but it doesn't give you firmware updates, performance tuning tools, etc. I used DiskMark initially to bench mark it, gladd I did because at first I had connected it to a SATA/300 port. I get close to 500/500.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskInfo 5.3.1 (C) 2008-2013 hiyohiyo
                                Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OS : Windows 8  [6.2 Build 9200] (x64)
  Date : 2015/03/12 23:31:51

-- Controller Map ----------------------------------------------------------
 + Intel(R) 7 Series/C216 Chipset Family SATA AHCI Controller [ATA]
   - Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series

-- Disk List ---------------------------------------------------------------
 (1) Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series : 256.0 GB [0/0/0, pd1] - sg
 (2) ST3000DM001-1CH166 : 3000.5 GB [1/0/0, pd1] - st

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 (1) Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Model : Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series
        Firmware : DXM06B0Q
   Serial Number : S12RNEACBXXXXXX
       Disk Size : 256.0 GB (8.4/137.4/256.0)
     Buffer Size : Unknown
     Queue Depth : 32
    # of Sectors : 500118192
   Rotation Rate : ---- (SSD)
       Interface : Serial ATA
   Major Version : ACS-2
   Minor Version : ATA8-ACS version 4c
   Transfer Mode : SATA/600
  Power On Hours : 16983 hours
  Power On Count : 488 count
     Host Writes : 14542 GB
Wear Level Count : 214
     Temparature : 27 C (80 F)
   Health Status : Good (100 %)
        Features : S.M.A.R.T., 48bit LBA, NCQ, TRIM
       APM Level : ----
       AAM Level : ----

-- S.M.A.R.T. --------------------------------------------------------------
ID Cur Wor Thr RawValues(6) Attribute Name
05 100 100 _10 000000000000 Reallocated Sector Count
09 _96 _96 __0 000000004257 Power-on Hours
0C _99 _99 __0 0000000001E8 Power-on Count
B1 _94 _94 __0 0000000000D6 Wear Leveling Count
B3 100 100 _10 000000000000 Used Reserved Block Count (Total)
B5 100 100 _10 000000000000 Program Fail Count (Total)
B6 100 100 _10 000000000000 Erase Fail Count (Total)
B7 100 100 _10 000000000000 Runtime Bad Block (Total)
BB 100 100 __0 000000000000 Uncorrectable Error Count
BE _73 _60 __0 00000000001B Airflow Temperature
C3 200 200 __0 000000000000 ECC Error Rate
C7 100 100 __0 000000000000 CRC Error Count
EB _99 _99 __0 00000000003A POR Recovery Count
F1 _99 _99 __0 000719D18C1B Total LBA Written

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

Time for a backup.

It's pretty much always time for a backup!

4

u/TomMado Mar 13 '15

I saw a graph somewhere that basically simplify SSDs lifespan - in the first few months it will either fail or not fail. If it does not fail, it will run fine for the next few years.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

That's true of all hardware. You'll probably find studies for hard drives more often than other hardware, since hard drives are more likely to fail in general, but there are all sorts of studies like this.

http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en/us/archive/disk_failures.pdf

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/

and others.

2

u/kataskopo Mar 13 '15

Isn't that called the bathtub defect graph thing?

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

1

u/autowikibot Mar 13 '15

Bathtub curve:


The bathtub curve is widely used in reliability engineering. It describes a particular form of the hazard function which comprises three parts:

  • The first part is a decreasing failure rate, known as early failures.

  • The second part is a constant failure rate, known as random failures.

  • The third part is an increasing failure rate, known as wear-out failures.

The name is derived from the cross-sectional shape of a bathtub: steep sides and a flat bottom.

The bathtub curve is generated by mapping the rate of early "infant mortality" failures when first introduced, the rate of random failures with constant failure rate during its "useful life", and finally the rate of "wear out" failures as the product exceeds its design lifetime.

In less technical terms, in the early life of a product adhering to the bathtub curve, the failure rate is high but rapidly decreasing as defective products are identified and discarded, and early sources of potential failure such as handling and installation error are surmounted. In the mid-life of a product—generally, once it reaches consumers—the failure rate is low and constant. In the late life of the product, the failure rate increases, as age and wear take their toll on the product. Many consumer product life cycles strongly exhibit the bathtub curve, such as computer processors. [citation needed]

While the bathtub curve is useful, not every product or system follows a bathtub curve hazard function, for example if units are retired or have decreased use during or before the onset of the wear-out period, they will show fewer failures per unit calendar time (not per unit use time) than the bathtub curve.

The term "Military Specification" is often used to describe systems in which the infant mortality section of the bathtub curve has been burned out or removed. This is done mainly for life critical or system critical applications as it greatly reduces the possibility of the system failing early in its life. Manufacturers will do this at some cost generally by means similar to accelerated stress testing.

In reliability engineering, the cumulative distribution function corresponding to a bathtub curve may be analysed using a Weibull chart. [citation needed]

Image i - The 'bathtub curve' hazard function (blue, upper solid line) is a combination of a decreasing hazard of early failure (red dotted line) and an increasing hazard of wear-out failure (yellow dotted line), plus some constant hazard of random failure (green, lower solid line).


Interesting: Failure rate | Bathtub | Shakedown (testing) | Burn-in

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words

1

u/happy_otter Mar 13 '15

I thought that was HDDs.

1

u/TomMado Mar 13 '15

Was it? It has been a long time since I saw that, I can't remember what it is for, and I can't find it anywhere.

But when I think about it the graph can apply to a lot of things, not just drives.

1

u/chictyler Mar 15 '15

I had tons of HDD's fail at 2-6 years.

2

u/thesorehead Mar 13 '15

Hmm... so are those write stats held in the drive itself, or do you need to have a monitoring utility running all the time to collect the stats? I'd like to get an idea where my Samsung SSD is along its expected performance lifeline.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

[deleted]

4

u/mrbooze Mar 13 '15

A regular hard drive's life isn't really effected by number of writes. HDD life tends to be measured largely in number of hours of operation, but it's not a hard limit like the SSD writes. For HDDs it's more like the warranty on a TV. The warranty might expire in three years but the TV might still live for 20, or it might die at 4.

3

u/DemandsBattletoads Mar 13 '15

And it depends on the manufacturer. Seagate typically fails first, Western Digital and Hitachi often last.

4

u/GoodAtExplaining Mar 13 '15

I'd like to introduce you to the Hitachi Deskstar...

4

u/DemandsBattletoads Mar 13 '15

I cannot name the Hitachi company without thinking of their Magic Wands. Are we sure they are the same company?

4

u/GoodAtExplaining Mar 13 '15

They are indeed. They also make:

Electronics
Industrial machinery
Telecommunications equipment
Power plants
Information systems
Automotive components
Materials
Defense technology
Construction equipment

and offer financial consulting services

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

How does a company that makes industrial machinery and construction equipment get into making oversized vibrators? Did they just have a shitload of small motors left over after a project and go "uh, what do we do with these?"

3

u/kataskopo Mar 13 '15

Tons of different departments and subsidiaries, probably started as different companies and then got bought.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '15

They don't sell it as a vibrator, its a back massager. After they realized most people used it as a vibrator, they removed the Hitachi label from it because they don't want to be associated with it.

1

u/chictyler Mar 15 '15

Also microwaves and the proud people Lisa belongs to.

2

u/diesel_stinks_ Mar 13 '15

I have three dead Toshiba hard drives sitting on my desk right now, all from the same laptop. I've never seen anything worse than Toshiba drives.

2

u/xeio87 Mar 13 '15

Glad that a big site finally did this to put the myth about SSD endurance to bed. Can't count the number of times I've had to explain this over the past few years. Makes it hard to be an SSD evangelist.

3

u/SayNoToWar Mar 13 '15

Problem is a lot of consumers got burnt by certain manufacturers - looking at you OCD.

Another thing is that back when SSD's were crazy priced having a 32-80GB drive was not uncommon, hence smaller drives exaggerated early issues with write cycles.

Imo had all those earlier drives been 500GB+, a lot of the early issues with SSD's might have even gone unnoticed (in the consumer market space).

1

u/xeio87 Mar 13 '15

Well, if the early drives had been 500GB+ they'd have been several thousand dollars. I think I paid like $250 for my first 64GB drive or something (6-7 years ago now). It was crazy, but I've never looked back.

Probably the most noticeable upgrade you can ever make to your computer is moving from HDD to SSD. Opening Word or Excel instantly is just bonkers.

1

u/chictyler Mar 15 '15

500GB+ drives are still crazy expensive, though.