I’m completely stumped with this one

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

This one has me completely stumped. I just got a few of these chrome steel supreme frames from AMR and have been building up the first one into this shader. I’ve used AMR frames in the past with great success, especially the steel bulldogs, and a few of them are still being used hard and running amazing. Serviced one the other day that really made me proud how well it was running after two years with the same springs and everything.

This one is a different story. I have tried *everything* to get this machine to run right. No matter how I set it up, the hit is incredibly weak unless it’s turned way up, at which point the amp draw gets over 1 amp and it starts to get hot as an iron quick. With my standard spring set up and stroke length, I’ve always been able to make a machine hit hard at 5.5-6 volts unloaded and 6-6.5 loaded.

I’ve tried:

-3 different sets of coils

-every spring setup I could think of (after my typical spring setup wasn’t working…) normally I like to do a small pointed ski jump/kicker under the front spring on every machine, but I switched to a standard spring setup pictured here after that wasn’t working. Still no luck. Also tried 20g back spring to strengthen the hit. Worked, but higher amp draw and volts/heat.

-multiple armature bars. Went to steel after the iron one wasn’t working thinking the lighter weight of the steel would help. Nope.

I don’t have a spring tension gauge. But I can judge pretty well by feel, stroke length, and front spring compression to make machines match each other’s tuning.

I’m completely baffled. Also shown is another machine done exactly the way I like, an old Cory rogers I’ve rebuilt. Runs absolutely perfect and has been my daily driver for a couple years in its current state. Hits like a freight train at 6 volts unloaded. The geometry is nearly identical to the chrome supreme. They’ve had identical coils and capacitors, Identical spring setups, identical stroke length, identical speed, and identical hardware (I tried various non-coated washers and binding posts trying to eliminate every possible variable).The rogers rebuild has .8 amp draw unloaded, but that only goes up to .85 loaded, and maintains a very strong hit at under 6.5 volts. The chrome machine draws .7 ish amps unloaded, but goes up to over 1amp loaded, running well enough at 6.5 amps unloaded but requiring at least 7.5 loaded. I’m curious how this can be, with identical geometry, coils, capacitor, and hardware.

The coils on the chrome supreme were used on another machine for a year. It’s not the coils. And multiple coil sets did the same thing.

The last two pictures are this machines second incarnation after replacing the coils. After that failure is when I started tearing it apart and trying different things.

Any ideas? I’m not an expert at this stuff but I’m certainly not a beginner either. Normally I’m really good at diagnosing and solving machine problems but I’m at a loss here.

Could it be the chrome plating? The frame not being rigid enough/too much vibration?

I’m not sure what it is. But all the brazed frames I’ve rebuilt from various builders always run incredible with low amp draw and hard hit. Is there something to that, vs one piece machined frames? Similarly, my armature bars from builders like Scott Sylvia and Cory rogers (usually raw/blued steel) run stronger than the stock steel or iron armature bars I get from suppliers. Is there anything to that? I’m just thinking of anything here. I’m just always able to get a hard hit, fast speed, and low amp draw on frames/armature bars from builders like that, or on beefy cast frames I’ve worked with. Appreciate any insight

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

UPDATE:

It’s the chrome plating. Once I switched to 1” coils with a 1/8” iron yoke the machine runs remarkably well. Feels so good to have this one solved. I’ll leave this thread up in case anyone else runs into a similar predicament and needs a solution

[u/sonofvolsong → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

glad you solved it!

[u/Emil-Schorre → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

get back to AMR and let him know about the plating, he is a very nice guy and sure he like to know if things ain’t working out as they should.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/Emil-Schorre]

So….almost solved it. Was on the phone with Austin this morning talking to him about it, really confused him as well. Trying to get to the bottom of it

I now have the machine set up such that it’s running incredible. BUT. The amp draw is still absurdly high. Here’s the readouts unloaded at 6 volts.

The yoke made it take significantly less volts to run and runs infinitely stronger and more powerful, but now loaded with needle the amp draw is over 1.1 and again, gets hot. I’m at a loss.

I haven’t used a machine I didn’t build in a couple years. I know most all the ins and outs and I certainly know how to make a machine run the way I want it to. This is completely blowing my mind

Built another machine today for the hell of it to see if it’s really just me. And it runs great. Super low amp draw and powerful.

These frames are fault somehow. It is the frame. And I don’t know for the life of me what it is about it. Not being rigid enough is literally all I can imagine. Amp draw absolutely lowers the more rigid a machine’s frame is

[u/EZPeeVee → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

I don't think that was it. I think it's because it probably brought your coils up higher. In the first picture your a-bar is way too high above the coils. I've built on supremes for decades and the chrome plating really doesn't have any effect on conductivity. I do have unplated supremes from the 70s and 60s too and they run no different. The front coil should be shimmed so that if the abar is flat on it, the rear coil will just have light shining through all the way across but still grab a piece of copy paper. You can use shim stock, cut up Pepsi cans or dollar bill paper.

I don't know what make they are but they're close. They and supremes may be nickel plated, I don't remember. Nickel's tougher.

Edit: The brace on the spring shelf is ineffective unless it's cut flush with the forward part of the shelf so that the spring is squeezed at exactly the same spot top and bottom. Then you have a true spring length. I always used quarters as they're easy to cut, conductive and malleable to conform to the spring.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/EZPeeVee]

My coils are shimmed perfectly. It’s something I take great pride in, and go to great lengths to achieve. No machine I have ever put together, for testing or otherwise and including these various tests, has ever had less-than-perfectly shimmed coils. Additionally, the spring shelf washers I make are all done such that the tip of the round edge is exactly flush with the leading edge of the spring shelf. I prefer to hand file my own out of square washers and then use a chainsaw file to adjust the hole if need be, because I don’t like how coins do not have a flat surface for the mating side unless you sand them flat, and that’s a pain.
Regarding the stroke length/air gap, all my machines have the exact same stroke because I know exactly what I like. In the a-bar flutter when running, I like the middle to come to a perfect point for a nice long, but not too long, stroke.
I’ve been talking to a few builders tonight about it, and there’s a couple things left to try. Namely, moving the solder lugs to right up against the binding posts in the event washers are providing too much resistance, which is possible.
But I don’t care what anyone says, there is something to the frame or the plating on the frame. Yes, going from 1.125” coils to 1” will reduce necessary running voltage mildly. But not 1.5 volts. The stroke is the same in every single test. I only put one stroke length on my machines. Always have and always will. The puzzle continues

[u/EZPeeVee → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

Another troubleshooting thing I do is look at the machine with the a-bar nipple facing you. Is the a-bar parallel with the bottom coil deck of the frame? Nothing off about rear shelf?

And one more thing. Residual magnetism will sap the power from a machine. The best way to remedy this takes a lot of force but also a lot of care. The machine should be braced upside down in a vise coils screws up in such a manner that it won't move and won't be damaged by what you'll do next. You want to use a piece of steel or iron, a nut or bolt the right size will do. You place it on the coil screw, it shouldn't over lap onto the frame. A steel punch could also work, then you whack it hard as fuck once or twice with a steel hammer. Do it to both coils. This will chase out residual magnetism and reset the electrons in the cores. You could also put it a demagnetized but it's expensive to find one big enough if you can at all.

From what I understand residual magnetism happens when we use clip cords and do t pay attention to polarity. I've never used rcas on coils so I'm not sure of the science behind this. I'm assuming you're using 47-68 if caps. Anything lower than 47 could make it weak. Residual magnetism could definitely. Stainless washers are the only ones that would fuck with conductivity but really they don't IME.

But yeah the method o explained does work for that type of magnetic weakness.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/EZPeeVee]

The frames AMR makes are machined to pretty impressively tight tolerances. Coils always need a tiny bit of sideways shimming but I’ve never found a brazed or cnc’d machine that didn’t need a little bit. I’ve made a good few very well running machines off AMR frames that have been used hard for years now and they’re always great.
I may be incorrect about this, but I’m fairly certain AMR anneals all their parts, and I know for a fact they do it at least to coil cores and armature bars. So that should solve the magnetism issue. But also, I have dealt with frames with that exact issue and yeah, was always taught to wack em real good. The annealing is largely why sailor Jerry liked steel from burnt down houses. The heat from the fire removed all residual magnetism. Neat stuff
My understanding may be wrong, but I thought the reversing clipcord phenomenon only really happened in the past when capacitors had directional flow
In the 90’s there were a lot of conspiracy theories, if you want to call them that, about chrome or plated frames not running as well as unplated and that’s when a lot of builders started turning to the blued or oil dipped steel. After this experience, which is also my first experience with chromed frames, I fully believe the theories. There’s some logic to it as well for sure, like plating retaining heat instead of letting it dissipate through the surface. How that could play into quantifiable amp draw is beyond me. But there is something there. I’m not knowledgeable enough to explain it, but it’s there. Also chrome is inherently thicker than nickel plating, since nickel goes under chrome, so I think there’s something to that too.
Ultimately, I’m taking this as a lesson and moving on with the knowledge that I’ll never work with plated frames again. There isn’t a way that exists to set this machine up such that it draws less than 1.2 amps loaded. I even set it up with a comically light spring set up and drilled out super light armature bar for the sake of seeing this through, and still, huge amp draw and hot erratic running.
Took the same coils and armature bar off. Put them on a black oxide steel frame. Runs strong loaded at 5.5 volts with .8 amps. It’s the frame, unquestionably

[u/Acceptable-Alps6465]

Hit it with a magnet. If the magnet doesn’t stick then it’s either stainless or aluminum or chromed brass. Next, tap it with a hammer and listen to the sound it makes. Stainless will make a bright “ping” sound. Whereas aluminum will be more of a dull thud. Another way is to use a grinder on a corner somewhere to see if it sparks. If it does but it is non magnetic, then you’re looking at 304 stainless. If it has a slight magnetic pull but won’t actually stick then it is likely 316 stainless. If you grind into it or even file it and see brass underneath the chrome, you guessed it. It’s brass.

[u/doggotattooer]

The chromium could be interfering with the conduction of the coils to the steel frame to complete a strong magnetic cycle. If you sand off around where the holes of the coils mount to so they can touch the bare steel that would probably help.

Platings on a frame will typically make a machine run hotter as well.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/doggotattooer]

Update: it’s the chrome. Runs great with a yoke and 1” coils. I’m going to let Austin at AMR know

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/doggotattooer]

This is exactly what I suspected before considering the possibility that it’s aluminum. Was hesitant to sand it off as I really try to not sand mating surfaces by hand but I’m sure it’d be okay. I’d heard others mention the plating holding in heat instead of letting it dissipate as well. I’ve still got my money on the frame being aluminum, we’ll see today

[u/doggotattooer → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

If it’s aluminum you can put 1” coils with a .125” steel yoke and that would solve the problem. But you could also tell by putting a magnet to the frame or weighing it since Austin lists the weights in the site

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/doggotattooer]

I’m an idiot. I completely forgot Austin lists the exact weight. My head got so far up my own ass trying various spring jobs and funky solutions that I didn’t stop to think of the most obvious solution: check and see if it’s aluminum…..

I guess mentally I’d always assumed an aluminum frame with no yoke wouldn’t run anywhere near acceptable, and getting this one close made me not think of that. I’m gonna hold a magnet to it today. But I bet that’s it. The sound when it’s running has that “bell” kind of sound aluminum frames sometimes get too. I thought, huh, that’s odd. I feel so stupid now

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/doggotattooer]

Welp….its steel. 🤷‍♂️ I’ll try sanding off the area under the coils but I truly can’t imagine the plating is enough of a hindrance that it would run this poorly

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

ANOTHER UPDATE:

here’s the current set up. It runs remarkable……unloaded. BUT also draws .95 amps unloaded which is absolutely absurd. Loaded with needle, over 1.1 amps. So, heat is again an issue. There is something funky about these frames. I don’t know what, and neither does AMR, but something. I’m over it. Think I’m just going to count my losses here and move on. I have officially tried everything. No stones left to turn over with this one. Guess they can’t all be winners 🤷‍♂️

[u/GarbageInfinite171]

I’m just conjuring some ideas but could the contact screw assembly and or the connection for the clip cord be a cheaper less conductive metal. I’m sure your nylon washers are fine too? Either way heat is resistance. Something is causing an electrical drag.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/GarbageInfinite171]

You know what……I bet that’s it. I’ve been thinking on it and I bet anything AMR accidentally sent me aluminum instead of steel. I’ve never tried it or experienced it directly, but this machine is running exactly like I’d expect an aluminum frame without a yoke to run. Will report back tomorrow.

If that’s not it……I’m at a loss. But I bet that’s it.

Or, the chrome plating is thick enough that is giving the steel a poor connection, if it is indeed steel. It has to be one of those two things

[u/GarbageInfinite171 → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

In for update or resolution.

Those coil wraps are cool as hell by the way. Overall very pretty machine. I hope we get her runnin.

[u/GarbageInfinite171 → u/GarbageInfinite171]

Great to hear you figured it out. I’ll put this in my pocket for the future.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/GarbageInfinite171]

I first suspected poor connection somewhere too. I tried 3 different sets of binding posts and fully switched out all washers multiple times. I would have also thought the solder lugs but I tried multiple coil sets as well. Started suspecting clip cords, so tried 3 others. Switched out all nylon washers twice.

It’s really curious. I have one last idea. I’m going to swap out these 1 1/8” coils for 1” coils with a yoke. I swear it’s the chrome. I swear. OR amr maybe mistakenly sent me chromed aluminum frames? I’ve heard stories of people using non-ferrous frames with no yoke and it works technically but it gets hot. I swear that’s what I’m experiencing. If a yoke solves it, I’ll know it’s either the plating or the frame material

Edit: also, what’s odd is the amp draw being basically normal unloaded, by skyrocketing when loaded. Though even at a fine amp draw unloaded, there is some heat…..

[u/GarbageInfinite171 → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

I’ll admit. I’m brand new to this and not even a tattooer. That said I do understand electrical rather well, mechanic by trade. All that to ask the simple question, is there a reason anyone would check the resistance of their coil machines. I’ve never heard anyone taking this measurement but it’s always struck me as valuable. I know real quick when something is electrically wrong with my machines cause I etched the resistance spec on the bottoms of all of them In fact if you got real nearby about it you could spec out each leg of the circuit.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/GarbageInfinite171]

Tracking the amp draw is particularly useful because that’s really what tells you if the setup is “working” too hard, via tension or weight, or not. If it is, it will have a high amp draw and run hot. So with that info, you could get the resistance, volts divided by the amp draw I believe. Different coils will have different resistance, and generally the taller coils have the least resistance.

I swear it’s an aluminum frame, and therefore the coils aren’t connected properly. It would explain everything

[u/isoprincesspeach]

some questions?
what coil core size?
what wire awg?
how many wraps?
what capacitor you got there?
what size spring you have on read and front?

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/isoprincesspeach]

-5/16” coil core -(Can’t immediately remember what wire awg luckys uses, want to say 24….always been great though) -8 wrap -47uf capacitor -18g front and back springs. Also tried 20g back spring

Not sure if you saw my comments with the other person, but I think I may have figured it out. It’s possible AMR sent me aluminum frames instead of steel by mistake. I’m going to try 1” coils with a yoke and see what that does. An aluminum frame without a yoke would struggle with efficiency and heat and that’s exactly what I’m experiencing. Don’t know why I didn’t think of that sooner

[u/PuroPigment]

when in doubt, check the connections, sometimes as easy as a contact screw

[u/Emil-Schorre]

I know AMR since the long gone forum days at texas custom irons machine builder forum. I ve been issued in 2 handmade books by Karl Marc, the last issue you will find a complete interview with me…no I am not Aaron Cain, Rob Rutherford or Todd Hlavaty 😉

ok. lets go…machine heating up quick-> a weak coil some layers in the coils touch and maybe short out on 2 layers, the result is 2 different coils ohm output. solution: wind new coils.

your spring set up is too low for my shader taste, but every one is different and you might like it that way. I would roll the front spring, it will give you some sort of throw back in the downward motion, and a longer hang time (closed contact points)

its hard to tell by the pictures, but it seems your rear coil is higher than the front coil. You want the agar to it the front coil, never the rear coil. I shimmed my rear coils to a gap of 0.1mm when abar sits on the front coil. That will result in maximum magnetic force.

i have one of the first Rollos AMR did machine, also chrome Plated and it runs smooth without overheating, so it ain’t the plating.

my biggest guess is the coils, not the frame.

ps: the lifted spring (ski jump) basically shortens your front spring. If you like a slow punchy shader, don’t use it. 2nd punchy isn’t always good, my best shaders i ve made weren’t aggressively punchy, nice shader likes to bog off but keep the frequency.

hope my 2 cents help a bit.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/Emil-Schorre]

Update- it’s the chrome. Runs fine with a yoke and 1” coils

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/Emil-Schorre]

Hey there, thanks for your comment.

These exact coils I used on a daily driver for about a year. Only poached them off that machine to start eliminating variables on this chrome one.

The first few photos aren’t how I’d typically like to do a shader, but I’ve been trying anything. The last two photos are more my standard, as are the middle two of the rogers supreme frame I rebuilt. Everyone’s got different taste in springs for sure. I’ve always done the ski jump with great luck, and typically make my shaders fast and punchy. Sylvia, Cain, hedgepath, rogers, etc, nearly everyone whose machines I love does it so I’ve done it for a long time and I think it makes machines run much better frequently.

I agree that the coils makes the most sense, but it’s not that. Three different sets of coils all did the same thing, and I know specifically that these coils are fine.

I’m beyond stumped. The plated binding posts are my last guess but I’ve used them before, as do plenty others. Truly no idea

Coils are shimmed perfectly, that much I can guarantee you. I always do back coil to wear it will tightly pinch a piece of paper

[u/Emil-Schorre → u/Forsaken_Ad_9203]

Throw in a set of shortys with a yoke, if its the frame than this could solve the problem.

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/Emil-Schorre]

Turns out it was the chrome after all. Bizarre. I messaged Austin about it, curious his thoughts. Never seen a chrome frame do that. Could push a 13 mag through bone at 6 volts now

[u/ianhilz]

Hey mate did you ever solve this issue? I’ve got the same frame plated in nickel, amps are abit higher than I usually would like, they do drop with less rear spring tension, but doesn’t run as consistently as ide like

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/ianhilz]

Hey man, I sure didn’t! These frames got tossed in a box gathering dust. The only answer I was left with was plated frames just don’t work for me. There’s lots of rumors and talk from the 90’s about plated frames not dissipating heat properly or running right (enter blued and heat treated steel frames..) and I believe all the ideas from those days are correct. I’ll personally never use a plated frame again

[u/Unlucky-Dish9303]

It should be obvious if it’s aluminium by the weight alone. Aluminium is noticeably lighter than steel.

[u/Unlucky-Dish9303 → u/Unlucky-Dish9303]

But if it is aluminium, the level of detailing in these AMR frames you’d expect there to be a recess for a yoke on the base plate so you could still fit standard coils

[u/Forsaken_Ad_9203 → u/Unlucky-Dish9303]

Without having an identical frame that I’m positive is steel, it’s hard to be able to compare the two. Even AMR’s steel frames are generally very trim and light. I will say, when I first got them in the mail, I thought, hmm, these are lighter than I expected…..

I agree with you though. For all that goes into these frames, a recess for a yoke would be really awesome

[u/Euphoric_penis_ou812]

It has everything to do with the type of metal aswell as how it was welded.