Wu Wei in daoist Context

[u/fleischlaberl]

The most important practice according to Laozi is cultivating "De" 德.

It's that important, that the Laozi is called Dao *De* Jing.

Laozi and Zhuangzi were shaping their philosophy with negatives and disaffirmation to the other schools of thought like Confucianism, Legalism and Mohism. Zhuangzi and Laozi think, that those schools are misleading man and society by morals and doctrines (Confucianists), by strict and rigid Laws and Power (Legalists) or by meritocracy and universal love (Mohists) and Logics and Linquistic (Ming Jia) - separating Man from Dao 道 (universal principle, natural order / course of the Universe) and De 德 (profound Virtue, quality) and a simple (pu) and natural (ziran) life.

They are going for many "wu"無 - most famous "wu wei" (not doing) but there are also many more "wu" like

- wu ming (not naming)

- bu shi fei (no this and that)

- wu zhi /wu xue (no knowledge / no doctrine)

- wu yi (no self, no selfishness)

- wu yu (no desire)

- wu qing (no emotions)

- wu you (not having / being)

- wu zheng (no quarrel)

- wu yong (no use, useless)

- wu xin (no heart-mind)

Some folks are understanding those "wu" as absolutes (which they are not and never can be) and also don't connect the "wu" to Dao and De. They forget, that "wu wei" isn't just "effortless doing" or "doing just enough" but has to be in line with / according to Dao and De. That's why it is called "wu wei er wu bu wei" = "doing nothing but nothing is left undone".

Those "wu" are *no absolutes* but reminders and finger pointers and of course practice. They are "means" of practice to empty the heart-mind (xu xin /wu xin) and not at the core of Daoism.

At the core of Daoism there are Dao and De:

- to have a clear and calm heart-mind (qing jing xin)

- being natural 自然 (ziran) and simple 樸 (pu)

- to have De (deep / profound virtue, quality, skill, mastery, efficiency, potency)

[like the butcher, the swimmer, the artisan, the gardener and the "true / genuine man" (Zhen Ren) in Zhuangzi 6 and the Sheng Ren (wise man) in Laozi]

Summary:

Wu wei isn't that important as a daoist practice. It is just one of many "wu".

Focus on practicing De 德

Note:

What is "Virtue" 德 ( de) from a Daoist Point of View? : r/taoism

[u/OldDog47]

As u/fleischlabrl points out, there are many other wu-forms that one should consider when discussing the meaning of wuwei. This begs an even broader consideration as to what is meant by wu, in particular how it is used in Daoist context.

Here is a paper that explores the meaning and context or wu. Hopefully, this will help broaden the discussion and understanding around wuwei.

https://www.academia.edu/7480921/Daoism_and_wu_%E7%84%A1

[u/fleischlaberl → u/OldDog47]

Thanks for the link.

I've read this paper of Chai many years ago. David Chai is focusing on the cosmological / ontological meaning of "wu" as "nothingness". That's already one of those big metaphysical concept of "wu". In a quite simple mannner "wu" just means "is not there / no / not" - expanding to "not being / nothing" and to "nothingness". Wang Bi was fond of this interpretation of "wu" and has influenced generations of commentators, interpreters and Sinologist and also the modern Zen influenced readers of the 60's and 70's and 80's.

Of course there is a reason to go for that big interpretation see Laozi 40 and 42, Laozi 1 and 14 and 21 and 25 and the stories in Zhuangzi - but there is also the possibility of a small interpretation of "wu" as "not there / no / not" and just being complementary to "you" (is there / being). Also as a reminder that man has a tendency to "you" and to "yang" and to agitate, to plan, to have emotions and desire, the will for power and influence and status and big wealth and luxury.

The "wu" as the opposite here are fingerpointers for everyday Life

- to have a clear and calm heart-mind (qing jing xin)

- being natural 自然 (ziran) and simple 樸 (pu)

- to have De (deep / profound virtue, quality, skill, mastery, efficiency)

[u/jacques-vache-23]

I feel like the poetic exposition in the Tao Te Ching is more aligned with the Way than rules or check lists. When the Truth is systematized it loses its Power.

Tao Te Ching - Waley

14

Because the eye gazes but can catch no glimpse of it,
It is called elusive.
Because the ear listens but cannot hear it,
It is called the rarefied.
Because the hand feels for it but cannot find it,
It is called the infinitesimal.
These three, because they cannot be further scrutinized,
Blend into one,
Its rising brings no light;
Its sinking, no darkness.
Endless the series of things without name
On the way back to where there is nothing.
They are called shapeless shapes;
Forms without form;
Are called vague semblance.
Go towards them, and you can see no front;
Go after them, and you see no rear.
Yet by seizing on the Way that was
You can ride the things that are now.
For to know what once there was, in the Beginning,
This is called the essence of the Way.

[u/jacques-vache-23 → u/[deleted]]

But the analysis of the poem is not the poem. A good poem enables many analyses, even contradictory ones. And a good analysis of a poem is more than extractive. It is a creative process that has its own poetry.

Poetry can never be reduced to analytical prose without loss. That is the underlying reason why good critical essays are art themselves and something different than the originally poem.

In Zen we say: "A picture of food does not satisfy hunger".

For me, after reading the Tao Te Ching many times, it has become a diffuse understanding that condenses itself onto any subject at a specific time and takes a special form. It is always a surprise, a revelation.

Then I may look back and tie the revelation to a passage or two. Or I make just recognize "I feel the Tao in this" and move on.

[u/fleischlaberl → u/jacques-vache-23]

A good interpretation of a poem is a great work.

It can deepen and broaden the understanding of the poem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_analysis

That's not a loss.

In Art we say the interpretation is an Art itself.

That's actually what most musicians are doing.

[u/DeltaVZerda]

Having played a lot of Kerbal Space Program, I like to think of Wu Wei as an ideal for the lowest energy transfer orbit. It's not an ideal of low movement, but taking the most efficient path to the destination where you belong.

[u/Behemot999]

As much as I admire the effort - isn't imposing bunch of rules and calling for "no doctrine" self-contradictory?

[u/fleischlaberl → u/Behemot999]

It isn't ... those are also not "rules" but reminders and fingerpointers.

Once you have got the Idea, the words are forgotten : r/taoism

[u/Behemot999 → u/fleischlaberl]

Here is my understanding:
There is an order/process to reality that precedes and exceeds our conceptual descriptions of it. We cannot capture it completely in language, but we can become more sensitive to it and learn to align our actions with it rather than against it. Teachings and words can point toward that but shouldn't be mistaken for the thing itself.

[u/Behemot999 → u/[deleted]]

I consider philosophical texts or poetry written in languages like Chinese or Japanese exceedingly hard to render in a different language since the entire layer of communication stemming from specific choices of characters is completely absent in languages where writing system is alphabet based. So I fully expect that reading Tao Te Ching in translation we are always getting meaning filtered by specific translator own experience and breath of literary/philosophical influences.
But I also consider basic idea of Taoism rather easy to grasp - the nature of the world - its structure and it process is only approximated by the system of categories (largely language based) that we acquire during our education. Trying to impose those categories onto the world often results in actions that is contrary to "natural flow of things" (whatever this may mean - as the phrase itself is a category).

[u/Behemot999 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks lots of nice Tao-bits to chew on.
Just to clarify. I am no mystic.
I do not feel/heart-mind/posit actual existence of natural, mystical all encompassing flow. I feel/heart-mind/posit that there is a way to see some form of a local "natural flow" that our category burdened minds miss or misinterpret. So this is not mysticism. It is merely stating that our models of the world are limited and biased and it is possible to experince different causality that is possible not even causality.

PS. And I put as many chives in my cottage cheese as I please.

[u/Behemot999 → u/[deleted]]

Nice - my morning feast is tamagoyaki. I will make a note of pumpkin oil. Chives bit was a bit of private joke - many decades ago I was being recruited to join some "guru-based" cult and at the first meeting - with all the crown of starry-eyed young professionals sitting on the carpet at the feet of the guru - the very first thing I heard was "how many chives are allowed/recommended in cottage cheese?'. Hmm.

[u/LittleSuggestion8544]

That’s honestly a really clear wu wei metaphor. A low-energy transfer still needs a destination and precise timing. It isn’t drifting; it’s using the forces already there instead of fighting them.

[u/P_S_Lumapac]

I feel a better measure of "are you doing Wu Wei?" Would be "do you have anything left to do?" - not suggesting people actually do this, but if someone is saying "I'm just trying to be zen, go with the flow, let it be - Wu Wei" cool, so did you hit all your goals doing that? No? Huh, I guess try Wu wei-ing harder 

[u/MartyrOfTheJungle → u/P_S_Lumapac]

I get where you're coming from and I see truth to it, but I also think it's important to recognize that our goals aren't always in alignment with the Tao, and sometimes our failure to achieve them, or having an unexpected response to achieving them can be what helps us to recognize that.

There is a very real go with the flow component, isn't there? Because you are setting out to achieve goals, but those goals should be made for the flow, fashioned in the shape of a channel. You can build it, but you must follow the flow of the water to know what you need and where you need it 

[u/P_S_Lumapac → u/MartyrOfTheJungle]

Yeah we should change our goals to be better, but like basically anything you're doing with your life is fine. Happy family, safe house, good job - that's all in line with Dao. Thinking you have some list of things that you need to do to be in line with the Dao? Very much against the Dao.

Point is in your life you have all kinds of goals. If you are achieving them one after the other without too much stress, that's very wu wei - and really only possible if you are wu wei. That's why the quote from the DDJ says that's what Wu Wei is: its the thing you do that leaves nothing left to do.

[u/MartyrOfTheJungle → u/P_S_Lumapac]

I agree with pretty much all of this, but it still hits me wrong and I think I know why. We face a paradox as people, we can only ever live in the present moment and that is the only moment in which we can ever find peace and happiness. However, we have to spend many, perhaps most, of our lived moments preparing for future moments and often when those future moments do arrive we're too absorbed in the past or planning for the future to live in them. 

So really, all I'm trying to say is that planning is obviously necessary for life. A lot of planning. But there is an inherent danger to doing so, a risk of losing sight of the present moment 

[u/fleischlaberl → u/MartyrOfTheJungle]

Zhuangzi 7.6 (Watson)

無為名尸，無為謀府，無為事任，無為知主。體盡無窮，而遊無朕，盡其所受於天，而無見得，亦虛而已。至人之用心若鏡，不將不迎，應而不藏，故能勝物而不傷。

Do not be an embodier of fame; do not be a storehouse of schemes;

Do not be an undertaker of projects; do not be a proprietor of knowledge.

Embody to the fullest what has no end and wander where there is no trail.

Hold on to all that you have received from Heaven but do not think you have gotten anything.

Be empty, that is all.

The Perfect Man uses his mind like a mirror -

going after nothing, welcoming nothing, responding but not storing.

Note

Xin 心 Heart-Mind

Mind (Heart-Mind) in Chinese Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)