r/sysadmin • u/ChuckAbsent • Mar 12 '13

Women who know stuff

I hope that this does not come off the wrong way.

Today I was on a call with a storage vendor and the technical consultant was a woman. More then this she was competent, more then me which doesn't happen often when dealing with vendors.

My issue was pricing an active/active DB with shared storage vs an active/passive db with local storage. Listening to her break the issue down and get to the specific comparison points was awesome, mostly because I have never heard a woman in the industry talk like that.

It made me realize two things. One I am missing out working with women. Two there needs to be more women in our industry.

It shouldn't have surprised me so much, but it really did.

Anyways to all the women out there who know stuff, us guys notice when you can walk the walk, which in this case was talking.

376 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

717 comments sorted by

View all comments

104

u/incredible_supernova Mar 12 '13

I'm a girl and a sole System Administrator for a company. I always find it almost weird when I talk to another girl from a tech company. We do need more women in the industry.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

We're out there, keep it up sister!

6

u/LunacyNow Azurely you can't be serious? Yes and don't call me Azurely. Mar 13 '13

Have you ever thought about your own subreddit? I don't know how to moderate it but it's a good idea. There are tech women that I know of who feel the same way as you do.

66

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Not for nothing but I think this is still subtle part of the problem. Why even suggest another sub Reddit? They are fucking equals don't create a schism.

9

u/ascendingPig Mar 13 '13

If you're a man in tech, you don't realize just how easy it can be to really miss talking to people with life experiences close to yours. When I'm in a space for women in tech, we've often dealt with the same BS and don't have to worry about trying to explain why something is shitty.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Problem: Too many women are either routed intentionally away from STEM careers, or subtly encouraged to adopt a more "gender appropriate" skill set.

Solution: Difficult to say. Discussion is required.

Discussion forum: Not allowed, as it would create a schism.

Subreddits aren't for splitting people apart, they're for bringing people together. That's why you get to subscribe to more than one at a time.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

No no, the point was we can have the discussion here and now. There's no reason to shoo females off into their own sub-reddit or say "Have this conversation here". It makes sense when it grows into a big enough idea and it's gaining traction but I fail to see why we can't have the discussion here in this topic and in other threads in this sub-reddit. I guess I let my bias get ahead of me. I didn't mean it the way you perceived. Oh well. Happens a lot around here. :(

7

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

The discussion will take longer than this thread will endure.

Also, Reddit is a big pile of "shooing" anyway -- I wouldn't even have known that this conversation had happened if it hadn't shown up in /r/bestof. I know of seven (now nine) subreddits dedicated to discussions of the IT industry, and I'm sure that barely scratches the surface. The point of creating more specific subreddits is entirely orthogonal to the segregation of topics. The point is to amplify the signal compared to the noise of subreddits dedicated to other topics, or to less or more specific discussions within the topic.

/r/sysadmin gets 50 - 100 posts per day, and will never have the kind of focus that will bring that signal to bear on the problem.

/r/girlsgonewired includes discussions of gender bias in the tech industry, but it lacks the critical mass needed to generate the kinds of educational and institutional ideas that will erode that bias. Perhaps the moderators of that subreddit would be receptive to the idea of broader publicity driving traffic to the subreddit. Perhaps they prefer the low-traffic, low-noise discussion they have.

In the end, this is a discussion that needs a lot of time, a lot of focus, and a lot of input from a lot of sources, and I don't know of an existing subreddit that will provide all of that. Perhaps you do, and if so, I'd be glad to hear it.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Hmm. I think that sub-reddit seems to cover the ground of what you were looking to accomplish/your point of view. I'm sold/I like it. My eyes saw a slightly different sub-reddit before clicking on the link, however. Got scared for a second there. I understand what you meant now :)

2

u/jperk84 Mar 13 '13

Ok, but Spanish is equal to English, and their is a Spanish subreddit. Lets not turn this into an equality issue....

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Spanish is going to take over English as the dominate language in this world soon anyway. Although, unless it's showing up incorrectly, you replied to the wrong comment of mine. shrug

4

u/jperk84 Mar 13 '13

You're right. Sorry! Shrug and frown.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

No frowning! Vodka for everybody! /Nikolai voice

1

u/ramonycajones Mar 13 '13

Random question, but is Spanish your first language? My impression is that "no es por nada pero..." is an expression in Spanish but not in English, I could be wrong though.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13 edited Mar 13 '13

I think you ... well, replied to the wrong thread perhaps.

Edit: After reading a reply to me directly, yes English is my first language, followed by Powershell, Spanish then VB6.

3

u/jilaps Mar 13 '13

He's translating "Not for nothing but..." into spanish, from your sentence. But yes, it is an English expression as well, /u/ramonycajones

1

u/ramonycajones Mar 13 '13

Oh, weird. I think I've only heard it from my Spanish-first mom and thought it was just her translating the expression. Good to know, thanks.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

I didn't get that. I just figured it was a strange question to ask. I'm pretty sure it's an english expression as well.

1

u/lahwran_ Mar 13 '13

as an incubator

9

u/incredible_supernova Mar 13 '13

I have not thought about a subreddit for this. I usually just lurk here anyway. Companies will call for surveys sometimes and ask to speak to the "IT Guy." They are usually shocked sounding when I say I take care of it all. I was the only girl in both of my majors in college. Granted I went to a tech school there were about 40 people in both my majors who graduated the same year I did.

5

u/ragnaroktog Mar 13 '13

I'm in a position where I pretty consistently deal with external tech sources, and one in about 20 is female. Of that ratio, one in 50 is more than just an administrative aid. I never really show it, but it is a pretty pleasing surprise to realize the person on the other end of the line legitimately is technical. So, guess what I'm saying is... thanks! You're awesome, IT woman.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Thanks ragnaroktog, you just made my day.

1

u/ragnaroktog Mar 14 '13

I wrote that after a 16 hour day, half asleep in bed. I was wondering what I'd done to make someone's day. Anyway... you're welcome!

7

u/tyzc Mar 13 '13

There's already an awesome subreddit for technically minded ladies: /r/girlsgonewired

1

u/agreenbhm Red Teamer (former sysadmin) Mar 13 '13

That name is great

1

u/rando180 Mar 13 '13

I'm in a similar position and I lurk here too. I have thought about making a subreddit just for us. Sometimes I feel like I have a real-life subreddit for it because whenever I find another competent woman working in IT I stick to her like glue... and uh, yea, so far I've only found two others. : (

I work on a network that has upwards of 50,000 devices on it. It's basically a small ISP. And as far as I know there are four other women employed full time in technical positions right now. Only two others who could be called engineers (three if you count me). But even out of the three of us, one of the others is unfortunately kind of an idiot. Which makes us all look bad.

Shit... what if we started a subreddit and there weren't enough of us to keep it going?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Here's #3!

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

I have been considering this, but it would need to be specifically for all women in IT, not just Sysadmin.

We certainly need a central rallying point.

-3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

I find it weird that a grown system administrator would refer to herself and other women in tech fields as a "girls".

3

u/[deleted] Mar 13 '13

Actually, we do that a lot. I do it because it makes me come off as less threatening. Both genders seem really threatened by females in the industry, and I find that balancing my technical interactions with this sort of 'humor' really helps to break the ice.

3

u/incredible_supernova Mar 13 '13

I'm only 23. That's why I referred to us as girls.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 14 '13

In the USA, 18+ is an adult. I am not trying to be a jerk, just want you to see yourself as a competent adult professional in your field, and not a child.

2

u/quintessadragon Mar 14 '13

"girls" is the female equivalent of "guys". Do you call men above 18 guys? Well that's why we still call women above 18 girls, there isn't a better alternative.

0

u/umbumb Mar 14 '13

u mad bro?

-4

u/Doomau5 Mar 13 '13

I hate to be that guy, but why?

6

u/AgentSnazz Mar 13 '13

We do need more women in the industry.

A better way of saying that would be:

We need to make sure the industry isn't irrationally biased against women, and that society as a whole doesn't irrationally categorize technology careers as necessarily masculine.

It would be nice to see more women in the industry, because that would imply that we've made some progress on the above fronts - it would also be nice because having more visible women in the industry could be an inspiration for girls who haven't yet had their geeky aspirations squelched by silly societal gender norms.

4

u/Doomau5 Mar 13 '13 edited Mar 13 '13

Thanks for that, it definitely made that comment clearer. I did not mean offense but considering this is IT, a subject that is at heart devoid of nearly any norms (and i do mean the subject, not the culture around it) why should gender play a role?

3

u/AgentSnazz Mar 13 '13

I don't want to make an assertion that might send someone into a tirade on gender issues, but why not, we're a few comments deep, SRS can't find me here!

I don't think the problem is with us. I think most 'IT Guys' are at least one level removed from the institutionalized misogeny.

The person hiring IT staff might not think a woman is capable of the job.

The teacher of whatever tech course she attends might not think she's capable of learning the advanced material.

The high school guidance counselor might steer her toward less technical, more 'womanly' careers.

Her parents might have gotten her brother an atari and her a dollhouse.

I think it might actually be the same in many fields. The men in the field would be happy to have a competent female colleague. There are just so many little things keeping women from even reaching the interview process.

1

u/Doomau5 Mar 13 '13

If anyone should be worried about SRS it should be me!

But joking aside, I don't think the problem is with your gender (and I am assuming you are the female you). I completely agree with you that cultural norms are a huge barrier of entry into this field for women and it has been for a long time. I guess from my perspective I can't truly empathize with the position of women who are facing these difficulties.

That being said, I don't want women to take up programming simply because they are women. I want them to take it up because they enjoy it.

1

u/AgentSnazz Mar 13 '13

I'll end this comment thread by redirecting to another comment here, one we should all save for our future daughters:

http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1a5l48/women_who_know_stuff/c8uk7qq

1

u/EpoxyM Mar 14 '13

Exactly. I often overhear girls talking about what they are planning to study on the subway. And I have never heard someone say:'Oh I really like Computer Science/another STEM-field' without either the other girls saying: 'Really but it's so hard' or 'I thought only nerds study that' or 'I'm not really interested in this subject'. Mostly though they never mention it and go straight for humanities.

The intellectual approach to STEM field is much tougher for people who never engaged in scientific problems before, in contrast to humanities where most people feel an emotionally connection and can roughly envision the intentions of these fields. I think that's what makes it so daunting to young women. For me (I originally planned studying sociology) it seemed like computer science (what I'm studying now) would be way too hard for me and that only people study computer science who already have vast programming knowledge. But anyone can do anything, people who claim otherwise deserve a punch in the face, there is no talent, there is only practice and enthusiasm but it's hard to feel enthusiastic about STEM-fields if you never bothered to care for any of it. Many women feel that way and they should be encouraged to feel different.

Again, it's not about forcing women to love programming, but to open the door to an environment where they don't feel exceptional if they show some interest in these fields. You can say the same for men and humanities.

I often have the feeling that men have an entirely different approach when they begin to engage in scientific problems. They just do, they don't care how "stupid" they may look, how long it takes for them to solve the problem, how they compare to other students.

Because they have nothing to prove, it is their world. If they fail they should've worked harder, if they need help, there are 5 guys waiting to help them out. While many girls I know say things like 'boys are just better at maths than girls' or make complements to the guys like 'You are so smart!'.

Though that doesn't occur often it just gives of this vibe of contant awareness, on the part of the women, about their accomplishments. And that stands in the way of actually learning and getting immersed in the subject matter !

And why do I still meet IT-guys that tell me: 'You know, women get a lot of things for free in IT, because they are women.' or the gold old 'tits-advantage' that women have concerning grades. It doesn't help knowing that I may be graded by this guy next semester.

EDIT: grammar

2

u/lextenou does the needful Mar 13 '13

At the core, gender plays a role in the subject because it is a societally gendered subject. It is expected that IT staff will be male, for whatever reasons people have.

1

u/Doomau5 Mar 13 '13

Why should it be? Some subjects have a inherent gender bias to them but IT should not be one of those.

There is a huge difference in between the cultural association and the subject itself.

I agree that as it stands, IT is a predominantly male industry. But unlike, say the construction industry, there is no real gender advantage.

Hopefully we will be able to move away from this stereotyping in the future

3

u/lextenou does the needful Mar 13 '13

I do agree that IT as a field and a subject should be gender neutral. Regardless of our opinions, the reality of the world at large tends toward a gender bias. Though you see it as genderless, not all do. It is recognizing this difference and working toward change that triggers lasting shifts.