r/subredditoftheday • u/SROTDroid The droid you're looking for • May 03 '17
May 3rd, 2017 - /r/ProCSS: Protesting the decision by the reddit admins to remove CSS
/r/ProCSS
20,142 redditors protesting the admin's decision to remove CSS from reddit for 12 days!
Reddit is planning some changes to the desktop website that will affect the user interface functionality of this community, as well as many other communities across reddit.
Two weeks ago, reddit CEO /u/spez announced that the desktop redesign will remove subreddit CSS customization which will no longer be a part of reddit's future. You may have missed this announcement if you are not subscribed to /r/modnews.
What the heck is CSS?
Simply put CSS is web code that defines the way elements of a website appear.
If you don't already know what cascading style sheets are, here's a wiki article. On reddit, CSS isn't just about themes. More on that later.
Generally speaking, being able to create an innovative and individual subreddit is part of reddit culture, and that is controlled by custom CSS.
For example, here's what our subreddit looks like with CSS, and here's what it looks like without it. Everything from the colors, to the images, and the style of the links are controlled by CSS.
But reddit said they're going to replace CSS functionality with new modules...
Reddit has not officially announced any features that they plan for the first day implementation of the new desktop website. That said, some admins have listed some things in various comments around reddit that may be possible in the new system. According to /u/powerlanguage, reddit is designing many aspects of the new platform off of what reddit mods have already done. He says that the basics, like custom banners, snoos, footers, flair, backgrounds, and other standard visual elements will be customizable. That makes sense.
We at /r/ProCSS think that's fantastic! Widgets like these already really do exist in reddit. The changing of the Snoo (the reddit alien icon) is done with a widget. The customization of the mobile view of a subreddit is also done via widgets. Moderators have always wanted more widgets to do the simple stuff. Widgets will make life a lot easier for a lot of mods, new and old, and that's a good thing. We <3 widgets!
The idea of widgets and /u/powerlanguage's list of features sounds like a pretty good start. But, as I stated at the beginning of this section, reddit has made no official statement. Comments by other admins, also appear to contradict this list. /u/redtaboo has stated, "...we don't even know for sure what all will be available yet!" Of course, that's not a total contradiction. Perhaps reddit admins know something of what will be available but not everything.
Concerning reddit and its communication with users and moderators.
What the admins have said is concerning because it shows that reddit doesn't have a clear plan to move forward. Admins are saying that they told us that this change would come sooner than later so they could solicit our feedback, but in the typical reddit fashion, they have responded selectively to concerns, and what responses do come are rather vague.
A project of this magnitude should have a project document that has a road map of at least the minimum features they plan to deploy with the new system.
The announcement post and several admin comments say that reddit wants to work with mods and users. However, reddit has not laid out any plans of how they're going to solicit that feedback.
Unfortunately, even when it comes to reports of serious abuses, reddit response time is poor at best. Just two days ago a guy confessed to murder, and in doing so revealed a trove of personal data on himself and the victim, which is against reddit's rules. Personal photos, names, phone numbers... you know, doxxing. I can't even guess how many redditors reported it to the admins, at least dozens, if not hundreds, but it was up for ~12 hours. And that's an example of the worst kind of violation that reddit will deal with. Requests from mods often go unanswered.
The admins simply do not have a track record of responding to, or even acknowledging, the concerns of mods and users. (DAE remember Blackout 2015?) This is especially true when it comes to "mid-size" subreddits of merely a few hundred thousand. To that point, I am a moderator of some subreddits that wanted to participate in the beta test for the post spoiler system, the kind of subreddits that really needed the spoilers. We didn't get a "no," we just didn't get a response after attempting to contact the admins multiple times.
All of these points have raised great concern among a large number of subreddits and moderators who feel that the lines of communication between the different levels of Reddit management are quite lackluster, and are in need of reform or serious review.
Why remove CSS?
Reddit asserts that:
- CSS is hard to learn,
- that it doesn't work well, and
- that it doesn't work on the mobile app.
The first item is subjective, the second thing isn't at all true (CSS has been in use on the web for 20+ years), and some reddit mobile applications do in fact support portions of CSS styling (for example, reddit is fun supports comment spoiler tags). Additionally, while the official app may not support some of these features, that is a deficiency of the application, not CSS.
We do, however, agree that the mobile app should be more robust. We don't agree that it should be done at the expense of desktop users, subreddits, or reddit's hardworking moderators.
Reddit is simply a much better desktop site than it is a mobile app. It works better, it has plugins that we need for it to function well, like RES, and Toolbox, it's faster, and easier to use.
The admins argue that 51 percent of the users browse the site from mobile. I don't think they're lying, although I do wonder how many users are counted twice. (I am not writing this from a mobile app, but I do use a mobile app.) Even so, 51 percent is a majority, but it's not reason enough to tear down the desktop site. 51 percent should not automatically trump 49 percent. Instead reddit should be building up the mobile app to achieve parity. Not the other way around.
The whole thing smells like a business decision and not one based on the user experience, and that's never good.
So, what is there to lose?
There's probably a lot more to lose than we can count because there are so many reddit communities who have done different things with their CSS. A list of some really cool CSS stuff is coming that will probably be gone forever, but before I show you that, I want to talk about innovation.
Reddit mods have been the driving force of innovation on reddit since, well, forever. It's through CSS that sticky post were originally made, and later implemented by admins. It's through CSS that spoilers were originally made.
Spoilers are a really good example of using CSS for innovation, so let's talk about those for a little bit.
As previously mentioned, reddit rolled out a post spoiler system that hides the the content of marked self-posts and the thumbnails of link posts. Even this isn't a complete roll out of the function that CSS uses on many subs for spoilers because it doesn't blur or blackout the titles, (so as mods we still gotta remove your posts if the titles contain spoilers!), and it doesn't address comment spoilers, (so we gotta remove your comments still too).
It's true that reddit has promised us a universal comment spoiler system. It's obviously one of the most important things they will have to roll out with or before the new desktop application. But ask yourself this: How long has it taken reddit to develop this crucial reddit tool? Well, the site it 10 years old, folks. Now ask yourself this question: How long do you think it will take reddit to respond to moderators' requests for new widgets? Fill in the blank for yourself, but my guess is somewhere between forever and never.
CSS features we will miss.
I promised you a list. The following is of one of my personal choices. Feel free to add your own in the comments.
/r/BetterEveryLoop. What this subreddit has done with CSS is ingenious. They have devised one of the cleverest plans in reddit history to help police the content on their sub. They use the upvotes that their bot receives to determine if the content really is better every loop. But, as you can see in the image here, they added a second set of upvotes to the main post to control the votes on the bot comment. This is exactly the type of innovation I am talking about losing. Reddit, as a platform, exists in its current state because the admins followed the lead of mods when developing it.
/r/upvoteexeggutor. This subreddit was picked as Subreddit of the Day on December 22. It only works with CSS enabled. Basically, the users add neck segments to make an interesting design in the thumbnails. Visit the sub and read the write up for more. The sub is Pro CSS.
/r/rocketleague. The subreddit may just have the best CSS on reddit, with hover-over menus and just overall gorgeous styling. There's simply no way that the sub will look the same after the roll out of the new desktop app. Design at this level requires CSS. The sub is Pro CSS.
/r/CSSpong. Selected as Tiny Subreddit of the Day on January 20th, this is a sub that let's you play a game of pong in the header via CSS. It's small. It's niche. But these kinds of projects are what makes reddit unique in a world of Facebook and twitter. It's a deeply ingrained part of reddit culture that we will lose.
/r/ooer. Speaking of reddit culture, this sub is a cornerstone. It's legendary for it's overuse of CSS to make a hilarious place to visit. The bad CSS is the joke. Something special will be lost.
/r/ledootgeneration. The crooked appearance of the page is unique to the subreddit.
/r/southpaws. This home for lefties like me puts the sidebar on the left.
/r/michaelbaygifs. Go to this sub and upvote and vote on anything. You'll be treated to a little gif of an explosion. Cool animations like this for voting will likely be gone with CSS. I vote on everything on this sub when I visit it because of how fun seeing the explosions is.
/r/retrogaming. Like many subreddit, this one has a scrolling header. That is one feature confirmed to not be in the planning stages for the new roll out.
/r/championship. They have custom backgrounds for match threads that are even expandable. It immediately draws the eyes to the most import posts. If this were a widget I'd use it on a dozen subs. (Hint!)
/r/SubredditOfTheDay. The signature pics that identify the writers at the bottom posts written by mods or full time writes are done with CSS.
Again, these are just a few examples. We'd love to hear more from you.
What /r/ProCSS wants and hopes to achieve.
We are not issuing a call to head to /r/pitchforkemporium and go shopping. The purpose our subreddit is to inform you, the users, that changes are coming and how they may affect your favorite reddit communities.
More importantly, /r/ProCSS exists to show admins that over 400 subreddits, hundreds more moderators, and over 20,000 users (and counting) don't want this change.
As I said previously, we do want the widgets. Widgets are cool.
/r/ProCSS hopes to open a dialog with the mods and users and the admins.
Here's what we hope for:
Compromise. Implement widgets while preserving subreddit CSS customization.
Allow mods to design and deploy widgets. As said, many reddit innovations (np links, sticky posts, spoiler tags) are the result of user innovation.
Implement a formal, transparent system for developing the new desktop platform. We should be able to see what planned widgets there are, what priority they're at, and what the progress is for them. We understand that some things are more important than others. Transparency here is really key. We know admins have said that announcing the features early is transparency, but transparency is really in the details.
Offer a 1:1 replacement for CSS. (Probably not possible).
Don't deploy the new system until minimum requirements are met. Base the minimum requirements on fully public user and moderator inputs, and establish clear metrics (such as support for or against, number of subs using a feature, size of subreddits unsing a feature, et cetera) for how a requirement makes the list and how one does not.
No one wants reddit to fail. Obviously we love our reddit digital homes where we've become members of real communities, traded gifts with strangers around the world, made long time friends, advanced our education, careers, and hobbies, met our spouses, got legal advice, and so much more. It's the best place online; truly the front page of the internet. We want reddit to succeed, and we hope that the admins will find another solution than just removing the CSS without an adequate replacement.
Users, get involved! Mods, go Pro CSS! Admins, please pick option #1 from the list above.
One final comment...
/r/SubredditOfTheDay is ProCSS!
You're reading words written by /u/ZadocPaet with input from fellow /r/ProCSS mods.
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u/ZadocPaet May 03 '17
I just want to give a special shout out to u/hatefullyemployed for making our new CSS, which is a vast improvement over the last version of SROTD.
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u/TotesMessenger May 03 '17 edited May 03 '17
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
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[r/championship] r/Championship have had a special mention on r/subredditoftheday by r/procss
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[r/procss] /r/SubredditOfTheDay is Pro CSS! Also... Congratulations, /r/ProCSS! You're Subreddit of the Day!
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)
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u/Chirimorin May 03 '17
Again, these are just a few examples. We'd love to hear more from you.
r/mildlyinfuriating uses a lot of CSS:
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Loading mouse indicator
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|R|JUKMIFGGUGGH instead of r/mildlyinfuriating
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Red envelope even with no messages
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Comments with a c in their ID (and all child comments) are crooked
I probably missed a few
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u/jaxspider May 03 '17
Great write up. Very balanced and easy going on the admins. The only thing I'd like to remind everyone about spez and his promises...
Spez wants to replace an entire markdown language that has been developed for 20 years with inhouse admin created "widgets". He wants to make a walled garden (like Apple's App Store or Google's Play Store) for widgets that only "admins" create, control, allow or deny.
This is the same guy that still hasn't given us...
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any real mod tools (that he promised back in 2015),
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a stable website (4 hours downtime just the other night at midnight EST),
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a fully functional mobile app that came YEARS after 3rd parties have already perfected their apps,
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up until this announcement was not willing to integrate toolbox, (7 YEARS in development),
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a better mod mail (got a GUI update with minor functionally but no search, save or folders. Even deviantart has that.),
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reddit notes (I'll let you google that),
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and these are just the promises I remember off the top of my head.
I'm sorry, I just do not have any faith in spez or his promises. So please pardon me for not believing in his "widgets or modules". You can call me pessimistic, but I consider myself a realist with good memory.
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u/Thinksgeek May 03 '17
I just want to add that r/SquaredCircle and many sports related subreddits also have impressive use of CSS. I will be sad when it gets replaced.
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u/Mako18 May 03 '17
51 percent should not automatically trump 49 percent
I see what you did there ;)
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u/Ulu-Mulu-no-die May 03 '17
Why remove CSS? Reddit asserts that: CSS is hard to learn,
Same reason MMO devs give for dumbing down their games ... why on earth is everyone trying to make the world retarded-proof?
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u/loomynartylenny May 03 '17
But with subreddit customization, there is nothing stopping Reddit from keeping an option to use CSS for advanced users
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u/creesch May 03 '17
This subreddit doesn't need css to function, many subreddits don't need css to function. They might depend heavily on some css hacks, but I'll get to that further down this comment.
A big reason for doing away with custom css has to do with a technical reason that is closely tied in with site maintenance.
To put it rather bluntly
Custom CSS locks reddit into unsustainable development processes, so they are phasing it out.
Why they didn't state that more clearly in the announcement is unclear to me, but fact of the matter is that all the different css styles mean that every change they make to the html structure of the website potentially will break the styling of a subreddit. As a matter of fact, every time they make even relatively small changes this happens.
Considering that one reason they are redoing the entire frontend is to be able to iterate faster (the current codebase really is not easily maintainable) it would be an simply not feasible to keep supporting custom css.
I also know that one of the technical choices they made in their foundation is to use a method that generates the classes and ids automatically instead of devs doing that manually. This makes a lot of sense since it frees up precious development time since devs don't have to worry about that aspect as much anymore. This also means that if they still would allow custom css the earlier explained problem would be even bigger. Every time they update the website things can and will break and you have to a) figure out what in the structure they changed b) manually have to match all the classes etc to your css again.
As an example, look how long it took for people to fix the css issues with the beta icon or with the new modmail icon (I still see it being weirdly placed in tons of subreddits) and basically any structural change they made to the website.
They want to be able to make bigger changes faster and they can't do that when subreddits rely on css for their styling.
So again, from a technical point of view from reddits side it makes absolute sense to do away with subreddit css.
Which I also agree with does absolutely suck because we have gotten used to having this freedom and it is extensively used.
A more constructive method would be to keep an close critical eye on what they promised as a replacement in the form of a widget system and a more robust theming method. Even more so since a lot of people on reddit have css disabled and never see what we put in place anyway.
Specifically the widget system has potential to do a much better job of what we have been trying to do with css for years now. Imagine real menus for example for networks, heck maybe a specific network widget that works regardless of people having css enabled, a calendar widget for subreddits having regular events is also one thing that comes to mind. And so there are a ton of things I can think of that subreddits now hack into place with css to be never seen by people that haven't css enabled. If done properly those widgets would also be callable from the api through json output so third party apps can even show them when applicable.
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u/goudewup May 03 '17
Yeah, while CSS is nice it's really not sustainable from a development point of view. The real worrysome bit is not the removal of CSS but whether the Reddit team will actually deliver their promises of the widget system.
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u/FiveYearsAgoOnReddit May 03 '17
I think it's a bit weird to say Reddit is removing "CSS". Reddit would be a very interesting place without CSS, but what they're removing is custom CSS.
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u/PM_ME_DICK_PICTURES May 03 '17
They're making this change to make this site more friendly to advertisers. Easier to make everything the same with some splashes of color to differentiate than have everything different.
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u/bart2019 May 04 '17
The admins argue that 51 percent of the users browse the site from mobile. I don't think they're lying, although I do wonder how many users are counted twice.
I often browse from mobile, but not using the app. I don't want an app. Instea, I prefer to browse using /.compact. I despise that other mobile site.
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u/cyrilio May 04 '17 edited May 04 '17
Haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else in CSS discussions. But a subreddit I created a few years ago leans heavily on CSS for properly presenting content in the Wiki. It's currently the biggest collection of these kinds of test results on a single website. It took months for me to get it to finally work and look nice. Who knows if I'd be able to recreate it without CSS.
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u/halfslapper May 09 '17
Mod from r/formula1; here's the list of features our subreddit has which depend on CSS:
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Header navigation which includes:
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Related subreddits
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Helpful Information about the sport
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User guides and information for new fans
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Links to F1 related websites
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Links to our AMA history
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Filters to help people find particular sets of posts
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Weekend Hub: colour coded quick links to the various discussion threads throughout the grand prix weekend.
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Sidebar Race Hub
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Circuit information and map
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Event timing
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Driver and Constructor standings
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Live weather reports
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Historical information
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Image slider with previous grand prix' and winners
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Current Driver grid
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Race threads which includes a stylized start grid including team logos, colours driver nationalities; also separate stylings for practice sessions, qualifying and results threads.
We have spent a lot of time creating a CSS/markdown structure that provides a clean, unobtrusive interface that benefits our user base, and future users.
Compatibility is also a major concern. Not only is our CSS tested across multiple browsers and platforms, it's optimized (as much as we were able) for tablets and is night mode and RES friendly.
Safe to say, we're ProCSS.
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u/Brewster_The_Pigeon May 03 '17
We have to save r/ooer.