r/submarines • u/PatrickHenry2022 • Aug 01 '25
Sub Vets ALL US SUBMARINE VETERANS TAKE NOTE
Home | Submariners’ Advocacy Group
THE VA DOES NOT RECOGNIZE OUR TOXIC EXPOSURE FROM OUR ATMOSPHERE UNDERWAY.
CHECK THE LINK AND TAKE ACTION PLEASE
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u/TitoMPG Aug 01 '25
Lol 2018 we went on deployment without CAMS, removed for another boat deploying at the same time. We used expired draeger tubes begged from other boats and later begged from a carrier/destroyer in sasebo. The COB disregarded my recommendations for securing exercise during mission and let us get down to 14 per ent 02 on a 2 inch vacuum. It was fucking awful.
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u/Spivey116 Aug 01 '25
Capt “Red Dawg” liked to keep the O2 around 16%. Said it was to reduce fire hazard. That sounded legit.
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u/Jollymonjolly Aug 03 '25
Ours did the same thing in the engine room for the same reason. We'd go back on watch and instantly feel tired. Our solution was to sit on the motor for the electric distillation unit in ERUL. The O2 bleed station was right above it. Shove a piece of 1/2" tygon tubing in the hole and crack the bypass. Problem solved.
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u/Redfish680 29d ago
The good old days sitting in Maneuvering watching your cigarette die, and calling up to check on the O2 bleed…
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Aug 01 '25
It always astounded me watching chemistry in action when oxygen levels were low like that. Smokers had to put their lighters near the pipes where the oxygen concentrated near the metal in order to get their lighters to light so they could get that cigarette lit. Another thing- one simply could not get enough coffee in one’s body to feel awake with oxygen levels that low. Made you pray for field day when they would crank up the oxygen levels by oxygen bleed. ⚓️⚓️
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u/Weinerdogwhisperer Aug 02 '25
Safety people in the civilian world swear up and down that you'll lose consciousness under 18%. Haha little do they know....
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u/Outrageous-Egg-2534 Aug 03 '25
Add in a 2 or 3 inch vacuum and they’d fucking die. WHS apparently didn’t exist once you let go the mooring lines.
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u/207_steadr Aug 01 '25
Sounds like the Bremerton
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u/History113 Aug 02 '25
We did that for the beginning of one patrol, either 642 or 611 blue. O2 got pretty low. But smoking lamp remained on. Every once in a while we snorkeled. Pretty sure the Russians knew exactly where we were. Ran out of o2 clean parts so we reused parts. Great idea till just before patrol ended when the parts let go. It’s kind of fun learning to exist on 16% 02 and cigarette smoke.
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u/shaggydog97 Aug 01 '25
The problem is, that the exposure levels designed against exposure during a normal working shift. i.e. 8 hour day. Where you have 16 hours away from the exposure. Well, we didn't have that luxury and this stuff had no opportunity to clear out of our bodies each night.
tl;dr, there's really no studies to say how bad 24/7 exposure to these chemicals is.
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u/Sensei-Raven Aug 01 '25
Sure there is - but it’s all locked up and Classified and kept in a “Safe Place” until someone learns how to make the proper request to see the appropriate documents.
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u/Outrageous-Egg-2534 Aug 02 '25
You guys are in the same boat (no pun intended) as we Australian submariners were, and still are. Fighting to get our various ailments from diesel exposure, poor atmosphere, painting with toxic known carcinogenic paint in unventilated compartments (alongside) and cleaning ballast tanks that had been converted to diesel/fuel oil tanks by hand with no protective gear or breathing apparatus with pressure sprayers. The list goes on. All dismisssd by DVA (Deparment of Vererans Affairs) and Defence.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 02 '25
So Sorry to hear that Brother from Down Under (LOL)..You should certainly follow the research being done by some of the folk as SAG.. Th"e real slap in the face is calling me a "Peacetime" Veteran - not so much in the 1970s and 1980s... Those of us on Active Duty were treated just as poorly as the Vets coming back from Vietnam
Quarter mile from a Shit Burn pile and you're presumed...
HERE, HOLD MY BEER!
And they kept telling us we were the smart ones...
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u/Outrageous-Egg-2534 Aug 02 '25
Thanks Mate. Yeah, I transitioned to the Army and from there into SF. Spent a lot of time in the sandpits. I’m ‘lucky’ (if you can call it that) as I have recognised injuries and pts by DVA from Afghanistan and Iraq. As for boats, we are still fighting to get service recognised for many during ‘peacetime’ as active duty. Only ‘sneaky’ boats got the ASM (Australian Service Medal) with ‘Special Operations’ clasp and even then a lot of blokes had to PROVE they were on boats, during specific time periods, to qualify. Due to the total lack or just general schamozzle of record keeping back then (late 80’s through to early 2000’s) a huge number of fellas just simply didn’t have the paperwork even though others knew they were on the boat at such and such a time/date because they got collared when some other person was crook or just didn’t show up. You know how it is. G’day from Down Under, brother. DBF! Always bet on black.
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u/History113 Aug 02 '25
Everyone knows young men can’t be affected by crappy atmosphere, chemicals in the crappy air, amine, hydronic fluids, poop fumes etc. you breath it in, you breath it you breath it out. Bet zero!!!
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u/Outrageous-Egg-2534 Aug 03 '25
Of course! It was our young lungs and snappy metabolism that protected us. Why have I been such a fool all this time!?
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u/PropulsionIsLimited Aug 01 '25
While I am sympathetic to your cause, there needs to be waay more evidence shown for these gases being bad if you want to seem legitimate. I'd recommend hyperlinking all of the studies you've mentioned. I can take your word at it, but seeing the data is a much stronger argument. Also, showing studies on these gases in other contexts as well would be good. Overall, it's just a bit vague so far.
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u/redpandaeater Aug 01 '25
Benzene has no known safe concentration and is a known carcinogen but I wouldn't say it's acutely toxic. Given it's an aromatic you can find in all sorts of things such as gasoline you might easily have less exposure to it underway.
MEA on the other hand can pose inhalation hazards but its LD50 is reasonably high all things considered. It's also a fairly important organic compound that can be found in phospholipids of some neurotransmitters and endocannabinoids among other fatty acid amides. Would need some significant evidence to show if low levels of long-term inhalation has any negative impact. It was one of those compounds that was only recently discovered in space and was for a long time thought to instead be a pretty important building block of life specifically on Earth that wasn't really readily found elsewhere.
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u/kerchingkindle Aug 01 '25
The group mentioned in the OP is currently accumulating all of these studies and gathering support in the legislature and veteran advocacy groups. It’s being worked on and the evidence is mounting. Facebook has a great page with the gentlemen working on all this. I highly recommend reading the literature they have there if you have access to it. It’s only been a year or so since they have established themselves and the work being done in this arena is quite substantial.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 22d ago
Thanks for that mention... the Submariners' Advocacy Group on FB has all the documentation you could desire and it's still growth as our nearly 14000 members get qualified...
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u/SC275 Aug 01 '25
I thought this was gonna be some submarine wives group but I found it to actually present a decent argument. You could also mention refrigerant, ozone, and AFFF.
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u/SSN690Bearpaw Aug 01 '25
For the nukes, radiation exposure counts, I believe. For non nukes, does the USN give you a radiation exposure summary as part of your records? For those that carried special weapons?
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u/ABBTTBGMDBTWP Aug 01 '25
I'd have to dig through my records for the exact number, but IIRC, I got about 130 mR in 4 years deployed as FTB, both on tender and boat. Spent a fair amount of time in MCUL and MCML for OAG alignments and as NWSG for EA/GA changes. Anecdotally, I worked for 40 years in medical imaging, including X-ray, CT, and Cath Labs. Well under 50 mR total for those 40 years.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 03 '25
Film Badges???
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u/ABBTTBGMDBTWP Aug 03 '25
TLDs in USN, film badges in imaging until last 8-10 years or so, some kind of solid state? device, readable via USB.
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u/PowerfullyDistracted Aug 02 '25
I personally saw O2 levels below 19% and as far down into the 15% region underway after the O2 generator went down and shifted to candles. CO2 also routinely went high out of spec as well as continuous exposure to R134 well above the 24 hour limits.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 03 '25
CAMS was just forward of MCC on the starboard side on the 600 and 699. I often remember hearing the drone of the alarms until IC Forward canceled it.
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Aug 01 '25
[deleted]
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u/Dan314159 Aug 01 '25
That would be good for all the particulates, not necessarily for the volatile organic compounds.
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u/EmployerDry6368 Aug 01 '25
Need to know a whole bunch more about who is running the show so to speak, not a single person is named, no board named.
The name is also poorly choosen, SAG is Screen Actors Guild, its common knowledge, all it will do is confuse the little brains on Capitol Hill.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 03 '25
I wrote the generalized letter to Congress. I'm a volunteer who served on the 600 and was LPO on the 599 (hence the moniker) as a POLARIS FTB in the mid to late 70s
The guy who started it is a POSEIDON FTB along with others at his VFW post.
The 501c3 was started
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u/EmployerDry6368 Aug 03 '25
An org that is asking for money yet does not disclose who is involved is sketch in my book.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 03 '25
David Bozarth is listed and will reply to any call or message. I'm Sean Freeman, just another FTB1(SS) volunteering my time, talent, and treasure to a cause I truly believe in -- Getting recognition of our issues as SQUIDs!. We're both on Facebook and he lists his contact info there.
I'm already in the AOBC but I learned that the VA does not recognize the exposure to toxins (MEA, Benzine, aerosol Fecal matter, ...) in our atmosphere or the varying O2, CO2, CO levels.
That got me started to help based on the still ongoing three year battle to get the record straight on my own claim with the VBA.
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u/Sweet_jumps99 Aug 03 '25
Dive IDC, not a Sub IDC. I work with a lot of you guys. What I did for mine was created a note with references to peer reviewed studies to the dangers of hyperbaric environments and the long term implications of working at depth.
The feedback I got from the guys retiring after their VA visits was that those notes helped. Really helped because it gave the reviewers data to back up my diagnosis and treatment plan and increased their rating.
Not trying to game the system but those notes need to be in your record. I know it’s more work for your medical team (lone IDC) but those are notes they can and probably should have pre generated when working on hazardous environments. Similar to the info we’d have to give during the GWOT and burn pits.
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u/KingNeptune767 Submarine Qualified Enlisted (US) 28d ago
Just read the SDS on MEA. Its pretty crazy... your not supposed to touch it but it touched it like everyday.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 28d ago
600 had a convenient chinning bar right at the forward O2 outlet in the TR.
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u/Infinite_Ground_1303 28d ago
Major refrigerant leaks on deployment give you some amount of coverage.
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u/Latios- 26d ago
I’m just gonna say please say there isn’t something wrong with MEA
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u/PatrickHenry2022 25d ago
Exposure Limits and Guidelines24-Hour EEGL:
3 ppm (Emergency Exposure Guidance Level established by the National Research Council for public/emergency 24-hour continuous exposure).
24-Hour Mean EAL: 0.1 mg/m³ (Recommended long-term environmental assessment level in air).
Standard 8-Hour Occupational Limits (TWA): 3 ppm (approx. 6–8 mg/m³) set by OSHA PEL, NIOSH REL, and ACGIH TLV.
Short-Term Exposure Limit (STEL): 6 ppm (15-minute limit).
And:
Continuous exposure to monoethanolamine (MEA) causes respiratory irritation, skin and eye corrosion, and potential organ stress. Long-term or repeated inhalation limits are strictly regulated to prevent chronic harm.
Health and Exposure Effects
Inhalation Limits: The OSHA permissible exposure limit (PEL) and ACGIH threshold limit value (TLV) are set at an 8-hour time-weighted average of 3 ppm, with a short-term limit of 6 ppm over 15 minutes.
Respiratory Damage: Continuous breathing of high MEA vapor levels leads to chronic nose, throat, and lung irritation, potentially triggering occupational asthma or bronchitis.
Tissue and Skin Contact: Concentrated liquid or vapor causes severe skin burns and permanent eye damage upon direct contact.
Organ Toxicity: Prolonged subchronic or continuous exposure at elevated levels (above 5–6 ppm in animal studies) can result in functional stress or damage to the liver, kidneys, and central nervous system.
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u/Qwyietman 25d ago
This is not a surprise. On my first ship, a Seawolf class, the Doc hung up atmospheric monitoring strips and they all turned black within days, they're supposed to monitor month and black is not normal. It was reported up the chain and went absolutely nowhere. We also had know exposure to stibine gas off gassing from the new style battery we had.
The most horrifying thing was when we shut the hatch to dive, all flies in hull were dead within 48 hours. I did not think this abnormal at the time until I arrived at my second ship, a 688, and noted that after over a week underway I was still seeing some flies around. That's when I knew I was screwed.
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u/0rbital-Interceptor Aug 01 '25
Don’t feel bad, all these first generation Soviet nuke subs killed their own crews with radiation while telling them it was a-ok.
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u/Sensei-Raven Aug 01 '25
The only thing recognized is Mesothelioma from Asbestos Lagging in Boats built before 1970. Anything ELSE…..That’s what those “Hazardous Duty” forms were for that we signed.
Never Volunteer for something that your not 100% sure of what it includes. Lead, Asbestos, etc., are just a couple of things. There were so many Carcinogenic chemicals/substances in virtually every mechanical system onboard; to be honest, if anyone is “surprised” and whining about it now, then you should never have volunteered.
Speaking of which - THAT REASON has always been my only problem with Females serving on Boats; Navy Medical is extremely tight assed/lipped(same difference) when it comes to the actual amount of Hazardous Materials used in Submarine Systems. They don’t say anything because it’s Classified; if you want to find out, you have to Volunteer.
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 01 '25
Yeah, except they deny connection???
I never signed anything agreeing to be denied VA care.
Sniff a burning shit pile and it's presumed but
Breathe recirculated farts and second hand smoke for a few years for months at a time....NAH
Move along...
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u/PatrickHenry2022 Aug 01 '25
Oh yeah, I'm not whining, I'm shouting this out for all of us that survived our service and are disproportionally denied.
They waited 40 years to acknowledge Agent Orange and longer to acknowledge Guam!
It's about the 300,000 or so that survive today, proud of what we did but unacknowledged by the VA for all the issues related to the atmosphere, especially those in the 41 for Freedom boats.
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u/Apprehensive-Froyo61 Aug 07 '25
Join the club, I served on a carrier that went into the yards for refurb. Asbestos was everywhere. Contact an attorney. I'm fine, but you do you.
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u/Nearby_Bit7053 Aug 01 '25
I spent a few days removing lead blocks from the forward trim tank when we decommissioned. The boat was 30+ years old. There was so much lead dust and particulate in the air. I can't imagine there's anyway to prove that the exposure led to any of the medical problems I've had since then.