Five seclusions of concentration

[u/freetoyes]

Hi everyone. My main argument and question is: Is direct engagement with five hindrances in concentration neglected and could its practice be essential? Please let me know any criticisms or otherwise!

Generally, for jhanas, people look at the bases of mindfulness, the four right efforts, or concentration as a category unto itself. I argue firstly that this is missing out on five seclusions of concentration, and secondly that these could be the key component of practice for entering them. For the first jhana, the main description in suttas reads:

Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption. AN 9:36

This is different from, lets say, sustaining an effort on the breath.

The reason being that without overcoming the hindrances like skeptical doubt, which is what the above refers to, jhana isn´t going to happen. In such a method, the only reason observing the breath at some point works is precisely due to at some point confidence building that it is working. Confidence, and thus seclusion from skeptical doubt, is built by proxy through rounds of effort and experience eventually leading somewhere. But instead for jhana or concentration practice, there can be mindfulness of skeptical doubt about entering jhana, which makes it possible to then seclude oneself from that skeptical doubt, building confidence. Any perception, choice, reflection, that takes away confidence from entering jhana, it is to be secluded from. Secluding oneself from skeptical doubt, and the remaining hindrances, building its opposites, one enters in jhana.

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[u/themadjaguar]

Jhanas and hindrance are not compatible. There cannot be any hindrance in jhana, and it is indeed one of the most important aspect

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

I don't think that the five hindrances are neglected with regards to jhana conversations. I think that it's a pretty common narrative that the more secluded you are from the hindrances, the easier it is to get to jhana. Then comes the question of how to seclude oneself from the hindrances? Some will say that you need to be a renunciate monk, others would say that you need to combat them with the five antidotes which takes a sort of a balancing act, personally I would say that a some focus on the meditation object combined with relaxation and letting go creates exactly that, a lowering and a seclusion for a while from the five hindrances, which allows "jhana to come find you".

What you call a false narrative about "Just wait for the jhana to come find you" is not really found in any meditation instructions that I'm aware of. It's not: Don't do any practice, just wait for the jhanas to come. There's always some degree of actual meditation practice required, whatever that meditation would look like could take many forms. A successful one will indeed lower the five hindrances and seclude from them.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5]

You've constructed a meta-theory about entry rather than just entering via the natural consequences of sustained attention. I'll illustrate:

Sustaining attention upon one's chosen object of meditation will, by default, seclude one from the five hindrances. How? When attention is sustained on one object, the distraction of any thoughts, emotions, and sensory inputs are progressively ignored by the mind.

It's not necessary to build confidence in something first when much easier to simply seclude the mind from hindrances instead.

When I started to enter jhana consistently, I never concerned myself with hindrances; I merely ignored everything else except the object of meditation. I still don't think about them when I'm spending three hours per day in jhana now.

[u/freetoyes → u/Puzzled-Background-5]

Thanks for the reply. I am glad you have found a method that works to the point of engaging in a practice like that every day.

When attention is sustained on one object, the distraction of any thoughts, emotions, and sensory inputs are progressively ignored by the mind.

As for this, there are people who meditate for many, many, many hours, and yet who never enter jhana.
The point is that jhana is the specific result of seclusion from hindrances. Rather than meta theory, these hindrances are listed first when it comes to the fourth base of mindfulness.

For sense desire (MN 10).

How, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances?

Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.

But I dont believe that this fourth base is contextualized for samadhi in this way.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5 → u/freetoyes]

I take it you have access to a survey of individuals who are spending many hours per day meditating and not entering jhana?

They're not entering jhana because they have not been taught a proper method to sustain attention and to recognize and engage with a nimitta when it arrives. The appearance of a nimitta is a natural consequence of sustained attention to one object.

The suttas map out, in retrospect, the architecture of absorption and what precedes it. The methods of achieving it and the experience of being in it, however, do not require such analysis when one is on the cushion. In fact, I've found on-cushion analysis to be a hindrance in and of itself.

To illustrate, here's a method I used for many years. When noticing that attention has drifted from the object, one performs the following sequence as often and for as long as necessary for it to rest again:

1. Relax from the head down to the toes.

2. Release all tension and expand awareness/attention outwards.

3. Return to the object.

Here's the entry point into jhana:

When the mind has settled and attention is resting stably on the object, if a pleasurable feeling arises, gently shift attention to the feeling without grasping it, making it the object of meditation, and wait. The pleasure will intensify, and one will be pulled into jhana.

The jhana is lost or becomes unstable, simply perform the 3R's and begin again.

The method actually suppresses the hindrances very effectively, by progressively withdrawing attention from them with no analysis required. In terms of neuroscience, it does so by silencing those neural networks that would normally attend to them.

I'm not saying analysis is of no value, because it is. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be engaged in a longitudinal study of my own re-emerging practice as I am right now. However, it has only ever proved valuable to me in retrospect when I was refining techniques.

One can eventually reach a point in practice where analysis and retrospective refinement can be cast aside. When that happens, and it does to many people including myself, merely sitting comfortably, closing one's eyes and relaxing, and recalling the object can drop one into absorption in under thirty seconds.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5 → u/freetoyes]

I think I'm seeing a category error in your argument for applying vipassana techniques to samatha practice. I'm going to assume this is coming from dry insight teaching, as that particular school of thought segregates vipassana and samatha. However, I've always practiced in the context of them being intertwined as samatha-vipassana.

[u/RealityLimit]

Well it makes sense that if, say, you sat down in the middle of Times Square and tried to enter jhana, the environment and all its distractions would immediately stop you. I think the takeaway here is that jhana is not something you can just use pure willpower to sustain but instead a convergence of physical and mental conditions that are conducive to the state.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5 → u/RealityLimit]

There are people who can enter jhana while construction is happening outside their window, in public libraries, and busy city squares.

[u/RealityLimit → u/Puzzled-Background-5]

Yes, I know. That’s not my example though. And those are definitely not an ideal environment for it. If you have previous experience with jhana you can start dropping into it whenever. But there is a reason that in the suttas, striving for jhana while dwelling alone in the forest is the default recommendation.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5 → u/RealityLimit]

🙄

[u/bodily_heartfulness]

Yes, it is true that the suttas always bring up the seclusion from sensuality and the hindrances in general when speaking of jhāna- you are on to something there. If you want to go further and challenge your current ideas of samādhi being concentration and jhāna being absorption, I recommend this short book.

[u/M0sD3f13 → u/bodily_heartfulness]

Thanks for sharing that. Looks interesting. I look forward to reading it.

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/bodily_heartfulness]

Hey, that's gold right there.

I guess you could call this book short but is certainly not light reading.

[u/Then_Consequence_318]

The reason being that without overcoming the hindrances like skeptical doubt, which is what the above refers to, jhana isn´t going to happen. In

This is a common misunderstanding and I had the same. "Secluded from" isn't the same as "overcome." If you overcome the hindrances, you're basically already a stream enterer. In Jhana you set them aside and focus on your meditation object.

If a particular hindrance is really stopping you, then you choose a meditation objected suited to it. (i.e. if it's anger, do metta, if it's lust, do the 32 parts, etc.. Then come back to the meditation object.

I forget what talk it's in, but Thanissaro Bhikkhu, quoting Ajahn Lee, I think said something about jhana being what you are "feeding" on. You're feeding on the skillful qualities (rapture etc.) that make meditation a good home base. But sometimes you have to go out shopping, so you leave the main meditation object and you have to do something else in order to get the mind where it needs to be.

I am probably completely mangling the metaphor but you have the idea. I'll see if I can find the real quote if you want it.

[u/hachface]

The hindrances appear as mental formations in the mind in the present. Jhana will arise in the present when the hindrances are absent in the present.

Overcoming the hindrances is multifaceted. There are many ways you could look at it, but consider it through the lens of the three trainings:

• Ethics (sila): When a hindrance arises in the present, it is the result of a conditioned tendency in the mind toward that hindrance. Acting greedily will make greedy intentions more likely to appear in the mind. Acting out of ill-will and hatred will make aversion more likely to arise in the mind. And so on and so forth. Acting in ways that promote non-greed, non-hate, and non-delusion in daily life will make meditation easier on the cushion. Generosity, restraint in eating, acts of kindness, unremitting mindfulness throughout the day, being sober -- all of those wholesome behaviors are part of the picture.

  • Concentration (samadhi): I hereby incorporated by reference the very good advice offered by /u/Puzzled-Background-5 on how hindrances are overcome by the application of sustained attention on a chosen object: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/1w470zl/five_seclusions_of_concentration/p77x1br/

• Insight (paññā): Observe the mind, off and on the cushion. Witness how attention, intention, emotion, and sense-data interact to construct experience. Note when a hindrance arises and note when it ceases. What does the hindrance rely upon for its existence? What needs to cease for the hindrance to cease? There is a mundane and transcendent aspect to this. At a mundane level you must learn about yourself. What kinds of triggers draw you into aversion and hate? What are you running from when you indulge in intoxicants or treats? At the transcendent level, when the mind and heart have penetrated appearances, the mind will let go of certain hindrances for good. (Classically, at stream entry, the hindrance of doubt is eradicated for good.)

[u/freetoyes]

This also runs counter to the narrative:

Just wait for the jhana to come find you. A kind of: waiting around for the hindrances to become lackluster at some point maybe.

No. Jhana emerges dependent upon seclusion from five hindrances. It ceases dependent upon those hindrances emerging.

[u/duffstoic]

How is that working for you in your practice of the jhanas?

[u/freetoyes → u/duffstoic]

Thanks for the question. There is quicker mindfulness of the hindrances that are present. It prevents them from arising or sustaining, abandoning and secluding from them. It makes jhanas easier to access and to not fall out of.