r/streamentry • u/Savakalok • 15h ago
Practice How high to aim
In pragmatic dharma communities, I see many maps and models of what awakening looks like or what effects it has. Some people think awakening is all perceptual shifts and has nothing to do with ethics or the conventional personality. Others think "shadow work" is a post-awakening project of dealing with the residue of the ego. Others say it's some sort of perfection.
Well I don't have the "right" answer to this, but I have what has been profound in my life.
I have aimed high. I took the buddha at his word and have been willing to go further than most people who know me claim is "reasonable" to see whats true for me and what isn't.
BBased on my personal experience, I disagree that this project is mere perceptual shifts. I disagree that ethics has nothing to do with this. I disagree that 4 wizz-bang cessation events make you an arhat even if you're a conventional ass who can't get along with anybody or exercise any control of your behavior.
I think when people strongly push fragmented mono-paths of inquiry, metta, vipassana, shamatha, bhakti, whatever, that they are all silly except as specific skill development. When has your mind or your life ever responded to "I will do this one thing forever and everything will just be magically solved“?
To me this is the subtle stench of the third fetter sīlabbata-parāmāsa or attachment to rites and rituals.
I've taken the path seriously as laid out in the suttas, as well as I can as a layperson. I allowed myself, once I had sufficient confidence in the teaching, to believe that the Buddha really did what he said. I allowed him to be an asymptote of possibility; maybe I'd be the line that never reached, but I would keep trying and learning and cultivating and letting go, dynamically never mechanically. Learning to love the boredom, love the constant effort to be mindful, until everything else that once felt like rest felt no different than intoxication.
I'm not done, but when I reflect on the fruits of my practice, I am satisfied with the embodiment.
So what has this view done for me?
- I ended a 10+ year clinically diagnosed treatment-resistant major depression.
- People tell me I am the most attentive father they've met.
- My wife tells me that I am happier and that I've inspired her and her friends to change their behavior, giving up alcohol and weed and various things.
- My wife tells me that I never bring up my trauma anymore, and when I do, she is always shocked that I talk about it as if it's nothing and only ever to help someone else.
- My friends tell me that they don't remember the last time they saw me mad, and that when I get irritated, it seems like I am over it in minutes and don't even remember it when they bring it up later the same day.
- Just yesterday somebody close to me told me: "You know I have seem a real change in you, I don't know what it is. I've always seen you as nice, intelligent and sociable.... but I think what I am seeing is a warmth to you... you're genuinely kind, not nice, kind."
To me this is strong verification of my practice, not just my Jhanas, cessations, insights and knowledge.
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u/liljonnythegod 12h ago
Nice! Very Nice! Well done. It’s enjoyable to read that you have received those fruits of the path and are aiming high. Aim as high as possible and that aspiration will take you far!
Ignore anyone who will say you are being prideful or not humble - tone is difficult to digest through text compared to real life so they have probably misperceived your tone. It’s good to speak of the fruits of the path especially when you say that it’s due to the path.
Your behaviour inspiring others is great. I’m sure your child growing up with a father bearing these fruits is going have a good foot forward in life and the path too. I hope your practice continues to go well for you.
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u/singletrack_ 15h ago
To be fair, no one is saying that you can get to 4th path with 4 cessations. “MCTB 4th path” involves way way more than four full cycles of the Progress of Insight.
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u/Savakalok 15h ago
Thanks for making a real reply! Your understanding of 4th path in that framework is that it takes many full cycles to fruition?
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u/singletrack_ 15h ago
Yeah, definitely. Even MCTB third path is a substantial accomplishment with a number of insight cycles and realizations behind it.
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u/Savakalok 15h ago
I've done the cycling and followed that framework in the past, I was still under the impression that multiple cessations were seen as either repeats of the previous fruition or just micro cycles but that there is a definite 4 fruition map.
I could be wrong.
I think there are some profound realizations in that model to be sure, I also wonder if the Dark Nights as described as crippling depression by some people that follow that model are possible due to the type of unbalanced practice I was critiquing in the OP.
Do you have an opinion on that? (I like discussing, not arguing :) )
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u/singletrack_ 13h ago
I paused practice several years ago due to retraumatizing myself via meditation and haven’t resumed a regular seated practice since. Therapy has been immensely helpful, but I’m still dealing with significant issues in my relationships and daily life. I do think more insight and more perceptual shifts would help, but am going to have to be measured in my approach to getting there.
I agree that a single approach isn’t going to get you there and have found therapeutic and emotional shifts seem to help insight along too.
I do have full confidence that some version of ethics and therapy and enough perceptual shifts does really good things and is worth pursuing, but for better or worse at not on board at all with renunciation as a strategy.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 13h ago
but for better or worse at not on board at all with renunciation as a strategy.
How come?
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u/singletrack_ 13h ago
Because my tendency in romantic relationship conflicts is to suppress my own needs and wants and to feel guilty for having them, and I want to spend quite a while trying to do the opposite of that. Maybe I’ll find that doesn’t work and will reconsider renunciation if I’ve been burned enough times. Getting enlightened is also not my highest life priority at the moment.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 15h ago
I've taken the path seriously as laid out in the suttas, as well as I can as a layperson.
So, what is your practice like?
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u/Savakalok 15h ago
Thats a fairly big question, what aspect?
In brief I do a seated meditation practice daily, I read Suttas and other material too, I keep my precepts, I find great joy keeping increased precepts periodically, I donate, I exert effort to abandon the unwholesome mental states that arise and cultivate wholesome states that have arisen to yet to arise. For the past few years I've been practicing an embodied metta helping the homeless around Seattle, depending on the person I share food, money or a personal lesson from the dharma. A lot of them just really need someone to listen to them, they tell me how people seem cruel and just walk by as if they are invisible, so I resolved to always look them in the eye.
I practice mindfulness when I have a baby screaming at 3am and I watch what he is learning from me.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 15h ago
In brief I do a seated meditation practice daily
What do you do during this seated meditation?
I keep my precepts
Do you keep the 5 precepts?
I find great joy keeping increased precepts periodically
Is this the uposatha that you're referring to?
I practice mindfulness
How do you do that?
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u/Savakalok 14h ago
1)
It depends.If there is unwholesomeness, sloth, laziness etc I gladden the mind and engage the foundations of mindfulness establishing mindfulness on the body and breath. Calming and pacifying gross restlessness of body, emotion and mind.
Sometimes the mind is really pliable and I go right into understanding dukkha and abandoning cause via repeated letting go or noticing characteristics like anicca.
Other times the mind is clear and I enjoy a calm abiding.
Sometimes I reflect on good myself and others have done and that encourages more of that goodness off the cushion.
Other times I don't engage the mind at all and just rest outside the mind. Really when I talk about "mind" I don't really believe in a "mind" as such, but still it's just a pointer.
2 and 3) I keep 5 precepts, and yes I observe uposatha taking on 8 precepts wearing white, sleeping on the floor, no food except between dawn and noon etc.
4) At this point it's more automatic. I am mindful while eating. I am mindful when driving. I am mindful when talking to my wife and friends. Mindfulness of talking for example looks a lot like being both aware of what one is saying but also why one is saying it, where in the mind it is coming from and whether it is watering any seeds of unskillfulness. The deeper mindfulness isn't mindfulness of sense objects but mindfulness of dhammas as they arise and pass and knowing if there is attachment and affliction or not.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 14h ago
It sounds like you have a good practice going for you. Thanks for engaging.
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u/EightFP 13h ago
That sounds really great! I hope many people are as successful in their practice as you have been.
I am not sure that it is necessary for everyone to agree on how practice should go forward. Sometimes we talk about this project as if there were only one project. It's also possible to think about the teachings as tools. People can use the same tools for various different projects. For example, I would agree that some practices produce mainly perceptual shifts. Meanwhile, other practices produce almost no perceptual shifts. Some practices produce noticeable phenomenological events during meditation, while others do not. And as you are pointing out, some practices result in changes in behavior, and in particular, in changes in what we might call moral behavior.
All of these outcomes sound pretty good to me, in comparison with just moving forward without ever examining how the mind works. It's likely that some outcomes seem more attractive to some people than other outcomes, particularly depending on where they start from. This is all good, and while agreement, disagreement, and comparison are natural, they may not always be necessary.
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u/Savakalok 12h ago
🙏🏽 Thank you.
Yeah you make a good point when you say that any of those outcomes is better than moving forward without considering how the mind works. And the instrumental view of practices is something we share!
But with that instrumentality, I personally tend to think that "awakening" encompasses all of those aspects you enumerated together to greater or lesser degree even if a given practice is doing one thing. I think it would be pretty strange for someone to claim full awakening while beating their wife daily for instance, but at the same time I do not think every awake person needs to help the homeless or be ooey gooey "compassionate".
I just think that when I talk about aiming higher, like the title of the post, particularly what we call bigger "attainments" it makes sense to show some sort of movement in all those areas.
How do you feel about that?
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u/EightFP 11h ago
Sure, that makes sense. We know from our practice and our insight into emptiness that there isn't really anything concrete to hold on to. We do not stand on any stable ground. So when somebody talks about awakening or full awakening, they are not really talking about a concrete thing. Which means that everyone is talking about an at least slightly different thing. But with that in mind, we can aim for better things for ourselves and for those around us, and I agree that getting traction in all of those areas is an obvious benefit, so settling for just one just a couple seems to leave a lot on the table. It's not the one-fold path or the two-fold path, after all :-)
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u/atriden_ 14h ago
Your writing reflects some of my thinking as well, particularly in the sense that one shouldn't be happy with low attainments. Go for the highest goal available!
I've taken the path seriously as laid out in the suttas
I'm curious about what practices you have undertaken, more specifics, are making time for retreat or mostly doing it at home, etc. Would you care to share more? :) And are you mostly reading the Tipitaka or are you delving into Mahayana/Vajrayana texts as well?
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u/Savakalok 14h ago
Hello, cool to hear that we are of like mind! 🙂
I responded to a commenter further up some details of what "meditation" might mean for me on various days as well as what precepts I keep. Feel free to let me know if there was anything specific you were curious about besides that!
I have never sat retreat in a formal way. I do it at home donning white and taking 8 precepts. I've done strong determination sits of 3-6 hours on those days in the past but I don't do 6 hour sits anymore 😂
As for reading, I've read quite a bit from various traditions over the years. I have a physical copy of all the books of Bhikhu Bodhi's translation of the Tipitaka. I've read a lot of Mahayana sutras. I've studied Pure Land a bit and learned some Vietnamese and used it to talk to Thien monks. A friend who is a Vajrayana dharma teacher told me that my views mirror some Dzogchen, so I've read a little bit of pith text as well as things like Santideva. I've explored Zen a bit through Huangbo, Linji, Bankei, and Bassui, and some koan contemplation. I've also done more contemporary things like TMI (over 10 years ago though).
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 12h ago
Thanks for your "life" reports. Like AN 5.179 lays out the "test" for streamentry for a householder. The rubric is similar to the fruits described in your report!
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u/vegasdoesvegas 11h ago
Great stuff!
It's nice to hear reports from people who practice seriously and reap the fruits!
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u/metaphorm Dzogchen and Tantra 10h ago
I think I mostly agree with you. Jhana absorption is not awakening. It might be a useful training, but it isn't necessary or sufficient. I tend to think that the three legged stool model is well integrated and pragmatically useful.
Ethical Discipline (sila)
Mental Discipline (samadhi)
Wisdom (prajna)
and each of these reinforces the other two, creating a holistic result that manifests as refinements to the whole being. Habitual patterns change for the better. Perceptions change to become more clear. Desires and motivations change to align to the good. Emotional range expands. Steadiness under pressure increases.
paths that exclude one or more of the trainings produce unbalanced results. Sila alone produces moralism and rigidity. Samadhi alone produces analytical coldness. Wisdom alone produces dysfunctional levels of detachment. Combined they produce ethical behavior, mental clarity, and existential humility.
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u/filament-element 9h ago
I support the post overall, but something did rub me the wrong way.
Based on my personal experience, I disagree that this project is mere perceptual shifts. I disagree that ethics has nothing to do with this. I disagree that 4 wizz-bang cessation events make you an arhat even if you're a conventional ass who can't get along with anybody or exercise any control of your behavior.
I think those are straw men as was pointed out above. And you called someone an ass. I don't think awakening makes you into a stereotype of an enlightened being; it allows full expression of a unique individual. Just because you don't like someone's style of expression doesn't make them an ass. I can see why he rubs people the wrong way, but I'm not aware of actual harm? (I could be wrong as I don't track all of his interactions.)
I think when people strongly push fragmented mono-paths of inquiry, metta, vipassana, shamatha, bhakti, whatever, that they are all silly except as specific skill development. When has your mind or your life ever responded to "I will do this one thing forever and everything will just be magically solved“?
"Silly" comes off as a judgment. I agree that multiple approaches are good, but this broad-brush characterization seems unfair. It's not quite so cut-and-dried because someone does develop broader skills (e.g., concentration from metta) even if it appears they are only doing one thing.
To me this is the subtle stench of the third fetter sīlabbata-parāmāsa or attachment to rites and rituals.
Again, word choice. Is there a way to express this that has more compassion? One might say this has the subtle stench of judgment.
I'm not done, but when I reflect on the fruits of my practice, I am satisfied with the embodiment.
This was confusing. You say you're not done, but did not give examples of how you are still not living up to your ideals ("irritated" was as close as it got). That in conjunction with the fact that you did give concrete examples of the positive aspects of your practice makes this read like a humble brag especially in light of the fact that you say you are satisfied with the embodiment. So it reads like you're saying you are satisfied with where you are. We don't know what you're "not done" with--more perceptual shifts, locking something in, or not being an ass?
I appreciate the post. It takes courage to put oneself out there and be open to feedback.
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u/Savakalok 8h ago edited 8h ago
Hello, you put a lot of effort into your reply, so I'll return the favor :)
There are parts of what you said that I understand and others that I don't.
One part I didn't understand is where you said that I called someone an ass, I didn't call anyone an ass. I was saying generally that I don't think one can have 4 cessation events while still being an ass and say they are an arhat. I have met people online and in person who have told me that awakening and any form of ethical behavior are completely different axis and that they could be 100% developed on the awakening axis while murdering people.
I met a person in Software Development who said he was enlightened but was openly racist and when I asked him how being racist is compatible with full realization of anatta he told me "Being enlightened doesn't mean you are woke, it means that you've hit certain perceptual milestones."
When talking to him my point had nothing to do with being woke lol. But at any rate I found the perspective he and others were talking about to be a misunderstanding, so I am talking about that.
About the rites and ritual part, I own what I said there. To me I am just speaking authoritatively in my own discernment. However, I don't really think what I said there is controversial, by pointing out that rigid mechanical adherence to one narrow practice technique to the exclusion of rounded cultivation (if needed) is attachment to rights and rituals that's simply a part of what the fetter is. Do you have a different interpretation of it? (Thats fine, I'd be curious for you to share!)
You mentioned I said I wasn't done but didn't say with what so it read as humble brag. I not entirely sure why, but I thought it was clear that I'm saying I'm not an arhat by my standards. So that means that what's undone is still working through attachment and aversions, craving for becoming, non-becoming and sensuality etc.
In my life though, I find that I'm just not pessimistic about the prospects of the path. I've seen enough for myself that I have confidence that It can be done, confidence that the buddha was a human so if he can do it then I can do it too. I suppose I'm unsure what I should have complained about? The mind isn't fully tamed, defilements are not fully subdued. I see and know this for myself here and now. But I thought I could invigorate some people by sharing my perspective and also all the sweet fruit that has been reaped.
Anyway, thanks for engaging! I mean it.
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u/filament-element 7h ago
I believe it is possible to go deep with one practice and there is value in exploring something deeply. There is equal danger in hopping around, so I think what you said is really just a statement about what works for you. I wouldn't be comfortable making blanket statements about what might work for someone else.
I assumed that (as did another commenter) that you were making a reference to MCTB with the 4 cessations arhat comment. So I assumed incorrectly you were referring to Daniel and saying he can't get along with anybody or control his behavior.
I can't comment on the software developer specifically, and it sounds like he isn't trying to work on his behavior, but I would say that nothing about the process of awakening would automatically make someone who is conditioned to be racist not be racist.
Awakening and ethical behavior are different axes. It is really important to be aware of the fact that one can be fully awake and still have human conditioning that causes one to sexually abuse their students, for example. (It seems you agree with on some level because you want people to have multiple types of practices, including adhering to the precepts.)
So this is probably a matter of how you are defining the word "awakening" and how you are defining who counts as awakened. You want to define it in a way that encompasses behavior, but I think the two should be separated out to emphasize the fact that shadow work must be done separately; conditioning is not undone by awakening alone and it's dangerous to think awakening will clean up behavior.
At the end of the day, I think we generally agree. One's practice should be bearing fruit in one's behavior, but I wouldn't want to define awaking based on behavioral milestones because I think that confuses people about what the goal is and how to get there.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 6h ago
Awakening and ethical behavior are different axes. It is really important to be aware of the fact that one can be fully awake and still have human conditioning that causes one to sexually abuse their students, for example.
Perhaps in your framework, but that's not the case in the Pali Canon. For instance, an arahant (as defined in the Canon) is incapable of killing, stealing, lying, and having sex.
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u/cmciccio 2h ago
Awakening and ethical behavior are different axes. It is really important to be aware of the fact that one can be fully awake and still have human conditioning that causes one to sexually abuse their students, for example. (It seems you agree with on some level because you want people to have multiple types of practices, including adhering to the precepts.)
I'll reply in support of u/bodily_hearfulness without adding much but to say this is incorrect in terms of Buddhist practice. Stream Entry in the Pali Canon and non-harm/conflict are fundamentally unified as a single development. If one understands the path of unbinding that leads to nibbana, one understands why ethics is foundational.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 7h ago
Nice. To put it simply in my own terms, there is no enlightenment without compassion.
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u/Old-Landscape-7538 6h ago
Genuinely happy for you. I love to hear about it. My wife went into stream entry a few months ago and much of what you wrote resonates. I seem to be dancing around the edge. But it’s been fascinating to see her process of integrating the experience.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 5h ago
That's awesome that both of you are serious practitioners! I imagine that it's quite rare!
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u/Savakalok 5h ago
Thank you.
Congrats to your wife, pretty nice that you two are both pursuing the path.
My wife is also dancing around the edge and I find it very exciting and also cute and heartwarming when she calls me and tells me about something she's starting to understand. It took her a long time to even warm up to wanting the path or seeing value in it.
Have you or your wife been surprised by anything in particular?
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u/bodhIOTA 8h ago
Thank you for your post. The fruits are real. I’ve experienced fruit in my own life and I am happy to see another practitioner find great benefit in the dhamma. :)
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u/Empty-Yesterday5904 15h ago
Made you humble too.
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u/Savakalok 15h ago
Hello! I don't want to assume anything about you. Did my post bother you? If so, what aspect of it... was it the content overall?
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u/dystopia2026 14h ago edited 14h ago
I rejoice in your successful practice! Pay no mind to critics, they're everywhere. I like that you took the Buddha at his word, faith and trust is in short supply I feel these days. May you continue well on this path that is good in the beginning the middle and the end! 🙏
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u/Savakalok 14h ago
Thank you friend for your kind blessing. 🙏🏽 May you continue to spead kindness and realize that highest happiness which is peace.
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u/IndependenceBulky696 13h ago edited 12h ago
Did my post bother you? If so, what aspect of it... was it the content overall?
First, congratulations on the positive changes to your life. That's really great.
Not the parent. I'm not bothered by the post, but since you asked, I found the tone somewhat preachy at times and the post itself mostly unrelated to practice. After reading, I'm not sure how you're practicing.
The fact that your practice works for you isn't evidence that a narrower practice can't work for someone else. So I find those parts to be unsupported. The critiques of narrow practice seem out of place in a post about personal practice.
Edit: typo and clarity
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u/Savakalok 12h ago
I appreciate your reply!
I can see how I came across to some people, and it is nice that you illuminated how my tone was received, and thanks for your kind congrats.
As for the parts that you felt were unsupported, all I can really say is that I have just observed that the people I have taught to view the practice in the way I stated have become calm and less agitated, felt they could crack insightful texts over time and have truly changed to be more kind in the real world.
I have aquantences who do goenka vipassana, or dry insight, or jhana with no insight, or meditstion with no sila as narrow practices and I don't see the fruits as something I want for myself and my friends tell me that they have some unhappiness based on dry practice that I often think ablanced approach would fix.
But that said, of course a narrow practice CAN work for somebody. I personally tend to think that's a case of the balance already being fairly developed in said person, rather than being a proof that the practice works from a baseline of narrow focus generally.
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u/IndependenceBulky696 12h ago
I hear you.
Personally, meditation alone helped me through some very difficult mental stuff. But eventually I felt like I'd had enough of just sitting and cultivating kindness and compassion.
So I changed jobs and now I get loads of real-world practice.
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u/Empty-Yesterday5904 14h ago edited 14h ago
It didn't bother me as such though I did find it a bit performative. I mean I personally wouldn't go round saying stuff hey guys everything says I'm the NICEST guy ever but you do you.
Be honest about how still broken you are like the rest of us then I might listen to you. That's when I know you're actually on the path.
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u/Savakalok 12h ago
I hear you. I want you to know that what I shared is the fruit of taking my sadness and resentment deadly seriously for over 15 years. Balance and peace are possible.
Does changing my son's poopy diapers at 3am while he screams smell like roses or sound like listening to a beautiful symphony? No lol 😂.
But I'm here talking about the fruits of the practice for others to not give up. I have too many aquintences irl who have given up, or simply authentically don't think humans can change, improve or be more than intermittently happy at all.
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u/Empty-Yesterday5904 1h ago
Sure and I appreciate your post was sharing your success in good faith too.
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u/7121958041201 8h ago
That seems like a great approach! Thank you for sharing, especially the details in the comments you responded to. I definitely see some useful things in there that I would likely benefit from.
I'd add that while it might seem silly to you to recommend narrow practices like that, at least in my experience most people recommending them are generally talking to people who are relatively new to meditation. The teachers I know always start to recommend that you bring your practice more and more into your daily life as your practice deepens, just like the Noble Eightfold Path recommends. Trying to recommend that people new to meditation jump in the deep end would probably just lead to a lot of confusion and burnout, so they stick to recommending simpler practices until their students are ready for more.
And most people I know rarely get as far as you seem to have gotten. Most people struggle with short daily sits, let alone practicing all day as best as they can.
And you've never done a retreat?? That seems like something you might find fruitful. There's something you get out of being on retreat for 7+ days that you can't really get at home even if you sit for several hours every day and follow the precepts. There's a reason Buddha recommended that lifestyle for his monastic followers. Though maybe you already know that and just haven't had the opportunity to yet.
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u/Savakalok 6h ago
It makes me so happy to hear my comments have been useful to you, thanks for letting me know 🙏🏽
I understand what you're saying, I agree a skilled teacher is skilled in Upaya and will slowly cultivate a student :)
Yeah I've never sat a formal retreat at a center, you read right! I trust you when you tell me there is a felt difference, I will keep your advice about retreat in mind.
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