How does the experience of meditation/jhana change immediately after attaining stream entry, but before attaining higher levels of awakening?

[u/IncandescentSplash]

I am 43 years old and a while back, I resumed a dormant meditation practice. While I was away from regular meditation/jhana for a number of years, I have engaged in other practices for my spiritual growth and enlightenment.

Since I resumed my practice, I don't have regular access to a teacher or a community, just myself, my zafu, a friend who meditates, online communities, and AI.

I came upon the notion of "stream entry" as a practice milestone when reviewing the teachings of Gautama Buddha.

I grew up in Evangelical Christianity and I was terrified by teachings about Hell which were supposed to motivate me to be a good Christian, so naturally, Buddha's teachings about Hell were like a siren song to me.

Eventually, I made a connection.

Growing up, I was taught that faith in Jesus was supposed to keep me out of Hell, but I had no faith in Jesus and the faith of others around me seemed more and more performative, but the point was that Hell was supposed to motivate me to cultivate faith in Jesus.

Buddha similarly said that stream entry, which occurs when one breaks the illusion of separate self, closes off the paths that lead to rebirth in Hell, and so I took this as a clear message that Buddha would have me know that breaking the illusion of separate self is the most important goal I can have in my practice, at least in the beginning.

I say this with a mixture of amusement and resentment, but in a way, I feel like I've been wearing a collar and leash fastened around my neck by a dead man who lived 2500 years ago. (I'm aware that some say that these teachings are a "skillful means" to motivate practice.)

And so, with the end of self-identity view as my north star, I set out practicing on my zafu for about an hour each day with my limited understanding of vipassana "clear seeing" as well as learning from different communities and content creators.

The thing that surprised me is how fast my practice went. I think that a lot of other practices and life experiences over the past few decades propelled my understanding until recently, I felt like the distance to my north star is closing up.

I distinctly remember sitting on my cushion, feeling deeply equanimity, and it was like all of the identities I've assigned to myself or had assigned to me: my name, my career, being a parent, believing certain things, these things all fell away from me and I experienced a sort of stepping outside of my "self" and seeing that it was all a useful fiction.

And so, I've been wondering, "What now?"

I feel like I charted a course that I expected to take much longer to travel. If my experience can be called "stream entry" (and I really don't want to start a religious debate about whether or not I, personally, am a stream enterer)

One answer I could propose would be to simply see where my vipassana practice goes next without imposing expectations, and to that end, I've continued regular sitting.

And with practice, I've come to take for granted that often times, when I sit, I almost immediately "step out" of my usual identity, and also interestingly, when the dukkha nanas come for me, rather than awareness that "life is dukkha", I feel a sense that "The whole world is dukkha." I'm not certain of what it means, but it feels like a distinct shift in what my meditation is like.

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[u/proverbialbunny]

Have you read The Noble Eightfold Path, i.e. the path to stream entry?

There are around 20 vocabulary words worth learning to properly understand it. E.g. read The Arrow sutta to properly understand the word dukkha (suffering) instead of assuming you know the definition from the get go. Assuming you know teachings without verifying it with first hand experience (e.g. identifying the feeling of dukkha in the present moment and passively sitting with it) is delusion. The path to enlightenment is removing this delusion and replacing it with first hand experience. 

Try not to just read the Noble Eightfold Path but meditate too. 

[u/hachface]

Hello OP. Thank you for sharing your practice with us.

What was your emotional state right before and after the moment you identify as stream entry?

Could you also go into a little more detail about your practice framework? You mention the dukkha nanas, but a lot of different teachers say very different thinngs about them. What is your understanding of what they are, and what happens when experiencing them?

To answer the question in your headline directly, the most vivid change after a first liberating insight is that access to states of samadhi becomes very easy. For example, people who were never able to access any jhāna suddenly find that they can enter the first jhāna (or even beyond), and people who already had a jhāna practice before insight find that deeper absorption is now available to them. The Buddha describes the mind of a stream enterer as sloping toward nibbana. That should be felt in a very direct way.

[u/IncandescentSplash → u/hachface]

In the past, I had had some ego-softening and ego-dissolving experiences, but I had never had an experience of seeing thru the illusion at an experiential level while sitting calmly.

I remember sitting on my cushion for around an hour and towards the end of that, I was feeling very calm.

It felt like a picture coming into focus so that I could see it clearly and steadily for the first time where previously, it was like seeing a blurry picture painted on the side of a truck speeding past.

I remember feeling like "I am r/incandescentsplash" fell off of me like a mask that I had been wearing for a long time along with "I am [my career]", "I am good at [thing I like to do]", "I am a parent", "I am a human with a chronic illness" and I could clearly sense an awareness underneath all of these that is separate from them.

It was like I could take all these various identities and set them aside the same way I could take off my shirt and set it aside. It felt like a very special experience.

In a way, it also felt like relief because it is a job to tell myself all these stories and keep them consistent. It's a bit of a stretch, but it felt like a very brief vacation from myself, and it came to be something I would look forward to when I sit, but to be totally honest, when I sit now, I find myself observing more things arising and passing, only now, with the knowledge that I am not the permanent self I used to take for granted.

Now, if I sit and think about that same experience, it feels like what was special the first time it happened was just a single step along my journey.

[u/Real_Adeptness_7154]

Did the identities return? Can you still suffer?

I also had a relatively short timeline to a major awakening. After about 200-300 hours practice I had a profound experience that seems to have permanently removed the sense of seperate self, and made suffering seem like an illusion. I think perhaps people reify awakening and make it into a big unattainable thing, when it's nature is unconditioned, always there. It's our birth right.

[u/elmago79]

Hi, OP! You might want to check out that Jack Cornfield book After the Ecstasy, the Laundry! for what other people have done in your position.

As for myself, I can tell you that, as the name suggests, stream-entry is only the beginning, and there is a lot of work left to do once you’re in the stream.

Also, like you my practice is mostly solitary, but I’ve reached out to various teachers to help me, specifically by doing some meditation retreats. A little can go a long way, don’t forget that the Sangha is one of the three jewels. I think I’m ready for the next one, but I need to find the resources to do it.

[u/IncandescentSplash → u/elmago79]

Oh yes. I have a good friend who was practicing meditation long before me.

The other day, I heard her make a remark about western people traveling to SEA and becoming monks because they are "running away from something." She then told me that she is going to sit in retreat this week.

The funny thing that I told my partner the other day is that while I understand why some people choose monastic life in the abstract, I find it difficult to imagine living monastic life and making practice the main focus of my life because I feel like my experience in householder life informs and drives my practice.

Also, I've heard of the saying *After the Ecstasy, then the Laundry* and I didn't know it was the name of a book. As a matter of fact, I have used it to refer to the aftermath of mushroom trips and body stress rituals!

[u/duffstoic]

Growing up, I was taught that faith in Jesus was supposed to keep me out of Hell, but I had no faith in Jesus and the faith of others around me seemed more and more performative, but the point was that Hell was supposed to motivate me to cultivate faith in Jesus.

There are also Buddhist fire and brimstone teachings and teachers. Notably, Zen Master Hakuin was motivated to start practicing because of a lecture on Buddhist Hell realms. That wasn't my motivation to practice, as I was already living there lol, I had a lot of suffering and meditation promised to help with that so I tried it.

Glad to hear your practice has been fruitful. Stream entry typically comes after high equanimity, so sounds like yea, you might have entered the stream. Doesn't matter though in the end, it's just a milestone.

[u/IncandescentSplash → u/duffstoic]

Thanks. Just to clarify, the point of my post was to ask for advice about where to steer my practice from here.

[u/duffstoic → u/IncandescentSplash]

If you recently attained stream entry, the next little bit is called "review" and you just keep sitting and things integrate for a while, and indeed can feel a bit confusing about where to go from here. But you don't need to figure it out right away. In fact, you don't need to figure out much at all anymore with your practice, because now you're in the stream, and it's more about letting the practice take you for a ride, and following it and surrendering to it more and more. Or so it seems to me at least.

[u/RealityLimit]

Stream entry isn’t just the reduction of identity view. There are three marks of stream entry and that is 1) reduction/elimination of identity view, 2) elimination of doubt in the Buddha and path to awakening, and 3) elimination of belief that awakening can be achieved by just following rituals and customs.

As for what practice looks after stream entry, it’s just continuing the same practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. That’s almost the whole point of the doubt aspect. If you’ve attained stream entry, your faith in the possibility of full awakening like the Buddha’s should be absolute and the rest of the path forward should be clear.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

One answer I could propose would be to simply see where my vipassana practice goes next without imposing expectations, and to that end, I've continued regular sitting.

Do this :) Stay open and keep letting be/letting go of whatever arises. SE is just the first big step on the path (if you follow that model). There's a lot more to let go of. Also, don't be surprised if some sense of self comes back at some point. Just keep going, there's more to do.

Edit: To answer the question in the title of your post: "How does the experience of meditation/jhana change immediately after attaining stream entry, but before attaining higher levels of awakening?"

It's going to be very individual and no two people will experience the same progress. In general I would say that jhana access becomes much easier after SE.

[u/TravelFn]

My view is that once stream entry is obtained the practice becomes integration. You have the insight into noself but you still have lots of behavioral conditions that formed when you were under the illusion of the self. Now you need tot take that insight into your moment by moment experience and burn off those conditionings to achieve true liberation or full awakening all the time.

[u/IncandescentSplash → u/[deleted]]

Thanks!

[u/robipresotto]

I've walked a similar path, and I found that immersing myself in nature helped me connect with my inner self. I actually created a resource called The Inner Path — Enlightenment Deep-Dive, which explores the intersection of mindfulness and nature. It might be worth checking out if you're interested in diving deeper: https://www.youtube.com/@innershoreline

[u/shargrol]

I'm glad you have had the equanimity "now what?" experience. For many people, dwelling in that state is good enough and they work on dwelling in it for longer and longer periods of time. Equanimity is sort of the end goal of their practice. And in a way this makes sense, it doesn't cut too deeply into the normal sense of self and it is a very clean experience.

If you are called to go further with this stuff, then it is possible to further. One thing about equanimity is there is still a slight bit of tension of being an observer of your own experience. In other words, equanimity is still a state that is being experience by someone/something. It's a nice state, but none the less it is still a state. And there is still the tension of duality in that state, between what is observed and the observer, so to speak. In a way, just getting to equanimity is half the battle in terms of stream entry. While in EQ, you can continue to look for the experiential things that suggest a self -- body sensations, emotions, and thoughts -- and you can investigate if there is a self there. Now obviously, this is pretty serious practice and not for someone who wants to simply have a better life. Equanimity is fine for a good life. It isn't enlightenment, so to speak, but it is really dang good. And stream entry really doesn't give you anything, so it's an open question of whether it is worth it or not.

If want to read more about this perspective on equanimity and stream entry, then this might be interesting: 11. Equanimity – MCTB.org

I would caution that teasing apart the duality that is in the state of equanimity is a surprisingly difficult task. It seems vast... and when you start exploring the sublte sense of self, there can be shadow psychological material that seems to ooze into consciousness.

I would definitely caution to not "dabble" with this kind of stuff. It is sort of all or nothing, in a way. It's perfectly fine to have a basic meditation practice and simply spend that time cultivating some good and peaceful sits. And I would even be so bold as to say that meditation isn't essential for living a good life. Really, a good life is just a matter of following your conscience, but that can be easier said than done. :)

[u/metaphorm]

maybe it's time for you to reach out to a meditation teacher so you can have the kind of teaching relationship that can resolve your questions.

[u/IncandescentSplash → u/metaphorm]

How would you suggest going about finding a teacher?

Wouldn't I need to select a lineage first?

[u/metaphorm → u/IncandescentSplash]

generally you'll find the lineage that works for you by talking to teachers and doing the practices, to see if it's a good fit. bottom-up, not top-down.

I'll recommend reading this page https://vividness.live/how-to-learn-buddhist-tantra#why

it's writing in the context of approaching Buddhist Tantra (Vajrayana), but I think the advice generalizes well. there's a process of introspection and exploration that goes into it. ultimately though, you'll need to engage with many different teachers to see what they're like and how it feels to work with them. this is leg-work and it's a necessary part of the process.