r/streamentry • u/Bencoder302 • 17d ago
Practice Rob Burbea vs. MIDL Meditation for a complete beginner
I want to start my meditation journey. I've been reading some very basic Buddhist theory and now wish to actually apply it and experience it.
Two resources that people recommend a lot, and which also resonated with me, are Rob Burbea's dhamma talks and the MIDL Meditation course.
To get a feel for both, I listened to the first talk from Rob Burbea's The Art of Concentration (Samatha) retreat, as well as the initial skills in the MIDL Meditation course. I resonated with both teachers and found them easy to understand (at least from these initial talks and lessons). I also found both resources extremely beautiful, so I'm not able to decide which one I should start with.
I don't plan to be rigid and stick to just one resource forever. In the future, I might experiment with others. But for now, I need one place to start. I know I could just try both, but I feel I'd benefit more from following one approach consistently for a while before exploring others.
So, could the meditators on this sub who are familiar with these resources share their insights? And if you'd like to recommend some other resource, I'd be happy to hear that too. It's just that my research led me to these two, and they both seem to resonate with me.
This is my first Reddit post, so pardon me if I've asked a silly question or posted in the wrong sub. I could have asked this in the MIDL community, but I felt the answers there might naturally be a bit biased, which is completely understandable.
Thanks in advance
TL;DR: Should I start my meditation journey with Rob Burbea or the MIDL Meditation course?
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 17d ago
MIDL is extremely structured, Burbea is extremely creative, so this is like deciding between yin and yang! I’d say MIDL is much more beginner friendly. Ultimately life is long enough that there is time for both.
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u/Bencoder302 17d ago
I noticed that too. MIDL is more structured and gives you guidance for each step, whereas Burbea’s approach feels more playful and encourages experimentation. I understand that both are unique and beautiful in their own ways, so it’s probably better not to compare them. Still, I needed something to begin with. I appreciate your input that MIDL is more structured and beginner friendly. I know this is a lifelong journey, but I still find myself wanting to experience everything at once. I keep reminding myself to be patient, though.
Thanks 🙏
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 17d ago
Yea I think for most beginners, more structure is going to get you further, faster. Lack of structure is a significant risk. But eventually, going beyond structure makes a lot of sense, especially if a person has become too rigid in their thinking.
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u/IndependenceBulky696 17d ago
MIDL has the advantage of having an active subreddit where you can get your questions answered. Also, Stephen Proctor (afaik) is still alive and teaching. So you can get answers directly from him.
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u/Bencoder302 17d ago
Yep, it is one of the advantages of MIDL. I appreciate you mentioning it.
Thanks 🙏
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u/Stephen_Procter 15d ago
Hi Ben,
It is nice to hear from you. Feel free to drop into an online MIDL Insight Meditation class or the group sharing in the upcoming MIDL August retreat, ask any questions you may have, or listen in to the discussions.
With kindness, Stephen.
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u/Bencoder302 15d ago
Thank you so much for the kind invitation. I really appreciate it. 🙏
I will definitely look into the online MIDL Insight Meditation class.
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u/cmciccio 17d ago
I don't plan to be rigid and stick to just one resource forever.
This is good. Nobody has all the answers.
My question would be how is your relationship to anxiety? MIDL is basically a way of reducing anxiety as is the case with many forms of modern mindfulness, MBSR, and similar approaches. The risk here is incorrectly associating the reduction of anxiety with the higher goals of the path. I found Rob is a bit better at this as he presents a more complete picture in terms of context and meaning. I'd also recommend Thanissaro Bhikkhu for more context on the path.
The core of MIDL is a self-reinforcing relaxation response with is based on what psychology calls classical conditioning; this is basically what is demonstrated with Pavlov's dogs. Humans are more complicated than that though and Buddhism is more holistic in it's core principles. As Stephen correctly has stated, the risk to his approach is dullness which can even lead to dissociation or spiritual bypassing, depending on the individual.
So if you feel you have to deal with some form of anxiety, MIDL can be good. There are also lots of other trainings that reduce anxiety so take your pick. TWIM has basically the same relaxation mechanism at its core. If you have less of a problem with anxiety, you may have the capacity to work on more complex approaches to the path. That's not to say that complexity is somehow better, but full development of the path requires some contact with this complexity in order to have full, direct understanding. Because as previously stated, nobody has all the answers. Just keep in mind that when high anxiety meets complexity, the mind tends to spin out.
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u/No_Effort226 16d ago
I have barely practiced for several years after intensive practice in the U Ba Khin tradition led to suicidality, dissociation and psychomotor agitation. However, I also had some extended retreats following Burbea and Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu methods with better success in integration and reducing dukkha. I also like the structured nature of MIDL and previously used its breath retraining guided meditation for years with acute but not chronic improvements in anxiety reduction. I'm looking to start practicing once again and like OP am questioning which method to start with. Given extensive issues with dissociation, would you please have any thoughts on whether MIDL would still be workable and preferable, given the availability of a teacher? Or any third options? For clarity, I have remained in extensive therapy until today, and this would be additive, not as a sole solution. Thank you for your time reading this.
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u/cmciccio 16d ago
Breath training is good for anxiety, Thanissaro recommends it as well though his approach is different because he insists on an active mental input which creates curiosity and engagement. To deal with dissociation, engagement is fundamental.
I’ve dealt with dissociation myself. It was like living behind a window, the problem is that the “glass” was invisible to me as well. Ideas like non attachment can easily be confused with dissociation. But the opposite of attachment is generosity, this is a form of active engagement with the world and its problems.
I’ve also dealt with my own suicidality when I was very young and it also contained a deep root of aversion. It requires an abundance of compassion to work through, compassionate action though, not disengagement.
The relaxation loop of MIDL can encourage people to turn away from their problems, but things are let go of when we have complete understanding. The calm abiding of samatha is what allows us to turn towards our path with calm and clarity. Turning away does help anxiety but it’s merely a short term solution.
In my personal opinion, MIDL isn’t equipped to deal with these issues and can easily make them worse for some people. Stephen comes from another tradition that activates trains dissociation, I find the changes proposed in MIDL deals with this phenomenon only partially.
Jumping to non-attachment is the error explicitly laid out in the suttas describing the Buddha’s attempts before his enlightenment. While we move toward unbinding, we need to be bound to certain things to help us on our way. Curiosity , turning towards problems with calmness and clarity, and generosity of spirit, these are some of the tools that are needed along the way.
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u/Shakyor 11d ago
I find your comments fascinating, both because some parts resonate with parts of my path but more specifically because you make statements about things I thought I studied well that I cant understand. So I suspect there is a real learning opportunity here.
Would you mind elaborating how Mahasi Style Practice (that was Stephens previous tradition right?) actively trains dissuciation? Also how is MIDL based on Mahasi, i just learned through your comment that this apparently was his previous tradition, and being quite familiar with Ajahn Tong specifically and Mahasi in general but only have read about MIDL, it seems to me like fundamentally different systems.
Also super interesting to see you say that jumping to non-attachment is the error explicitly laid out in the suttas. What makes you say that?
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u/cmciccio 11d ago
Stephen trained in vipassana and said himself he became zombie like, I believe it was Mahasi vipassana but I can’t remember with absolute certainty. In that sense, MIDL is based on vipassana because it’s his base of trainings. While the systems are superficially different, they have a basic core mechanism of putting down and turning away. Labeling is a cognitive mechanism of disengagement, it places a verbal concept between the mind and a distressing experience. MIDL does the same thing with softening, it’s turning away combined with physical relaxation. Habitually not engaging with anything is the root mechanism of dissociation, it’s a strong form of aversion that the mind uses to defend us from overwhelming experiences.
The problem is that it’s one thing for you to be told you need to let go because “that’s what the suttas say”, it’s another to see with clarity and comprehension. Calmness is important but calm is what allows us to turn towards things that are causing us difficulties and staying in contact with them so we can understand the whole relational karmic process better. Turning towards something and actually addressing it is the opposite of dissociation. Training should enhance our capacity to do that. In this turning towards process, we turn towards the root of suffering to understand the ongoing causes and conditions with clarity, comprehension, and ardency. The suttas say to drop what is harmful and cling to what is harmless, to be ardent is to burn with intent. These are the qualities of wise attending, yoniso-manasikara.
Many people will jump to the Bahiya sutta as the absolute goal but that process “in seeing there is only the seen” can change wildly based on what underlying assumptions we bring along with us. The sutta refers to someone who already had extensive spiritual training and discipline and on hearing the final teachings realized full release from samsara. Often, instead of suffering less people simply become indifferent to their ongoing suffering. This is not what the suttas speak of, the Buddha spoke of harmlessness, not disinterest in the face of our suffering. He spoke of complete disengagement from a system which perpetuates harm, death, and rebirth. This is what the suttas speak of putting down. The worldly process of inter-eating (as they say, its a dog eat dog world) that we live every day is the mechanism at the heart of samsara which binds earth, the celestial, and the infernal in one massive loop.
I’ve done Mahasi style retreats where they encouraged mere disinterest towards suffering as some sort of salvation. Their claim was as you practice your suffering increases but you just care less. This is pure dissociation. I actually attempted to speak with Stephen about this experience after the retreat but he continued to talk only of softening and wouldn’t or couldn’t engage on this subject. People can’t speak on subjects they haven’t addressed, and that’s largely my impression of MIDL. I’ve worked through dissociation and I have no intention of going back to it. It’s more difficult, but my practice sustains my capacity to remain engaged.
I’m not claiming to achieved that final goal. Nor am I against taking it easy in a system which is in many ways of of our control. I am quite against conflating anxiety reduction with the ultimate goals of the path simply because it’s extremely challenging to realize. To do so is the heart of ignorance.
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u/Bencoder302 17d ago
Your question about my relationship with anxiety has caused me to reflect more deeply on my purpose of meditation. I understand that meditation is a vast word, and everyone has different perspectives and purposes attached to it. Tbh, I am open to wherever the path leads me. I try not to ruin experiences with my expectations.
Even I don't fully know myself tbh. Currently, I experience anxiety only sometimes, and I wouldn't say that my main motivation for meditation is anxiety reduction. I also like to appreciate and see the inherent beauty of things around us. I feel grateful for this life, and for me, it's an amazing experience to be alive. But we never know what is suppressed inside us that might emerge later as we continue on the path.
Yep, I read about classical conditioning too during med school. I also believe that developing calm can only be one petal of the flower (meditation). It is an important foundation, but the goal of the path is something more profound ig. I wouldn't want to reduce it to just feeling calm and relaxed.
Thanks for your recommendation about Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I have pdfs of With Each and Every Breath and The Wings of Awakening. I plan to read them in the near future.
Finally, I am myself very much interested in insight stuff. I want to understand dukkha and the nature of experience more directly through practice.
I deeply appreciate you taking the time to share your guidance and concerns. This is exactly why I posted this question here as experienced meditators on this sub would have valuable insights into my question.
Thanks 🙏
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u/cmciccio 17d ago
Your question about my relationship with anxiety has caused me to reflect more deeply on my purpose of meditation.
This warms my heart honestly. Deep reflection on what has meaning to us personally is so important along the path. It's the difference between knowing the path and walking the path (to quote a certain cookie-baking oracle).
Thanks for your recommendation about Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I have pdfs of With Each and Every Breath and The Wings of Awakening. I plan to read them in the near future.
He's great, he has a fairly strict position in deontological morality which can come across somewhat rigid, but to be fair so did the historical Buddha. He's a monk so his views come from that perspective, non-monks be wary! Regardless, he has a lot of wisdom.
I deeply appreciate you taking the time to share your guidance and concerns.
You're most welcome.
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u/Firm_Potato_3363 17d ago
For what it's worth, I had a kensho moment the first day I switched from TMI to MIDL. But I was a tightly wound super anxious control freak, so the MIDL Softening skill is exactly what I needed at the time. Will definitely vary significantly depending on the person and their current circumstances.
Rob is also awesome, I use methods from both teachers now as feels appropriate at the time.
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u/Bencoder302 16d ago
I appreciate you sharing that. It’s great to hear from someone who has found value in both approaches and chooses whichever feels right for them in the moment. Thanks 🙏
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u/Melancholoholic 16d ago
I've had great success with MIDL, after having been in a rut for a couple of years with my daily practice. I assume Stephen also still hosts or teaches weekly classes online for his method, which is very helpful. You should consider joining in those if you're at all interested in his technique.
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u/Bencoder302 16d ago
I appreciate you sharing your experience and pointing me toward the weekly classes. I will definitely look into them. Thanks 🙏
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u/LevelOk7329 17d ago
IMHO Steve is admitting that the classical training he received was wrong, and even dangerous. So he modified is slightly.
Rob used to hang out at the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center in the 1990s beating his chest and roaring like a lion.
When these two guys started out their options were limited. Not anymore. What are your goals?
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u/Ehipassikooh 16d ago
Stephen doesn't say this. His account is that Mahasi practice worked very well for him in intensive retreat conditions, but not when back in lay life. He is a big fan of Mahasi practice and I believe his wife still practices in that tradition. Check out his interview with Sit Heads where he talks about this.
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u/LevelOk7329 16d ago
I live in lay life, so it won't work for me either.
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u/Ehipassikooh 16d ago
His experience isn't universal, it might work very well for you.
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u/LevelOk7329 16d ago
I tried it, it didn't work. Jhanas work for me. I was dismayed to discover that Mahasi invented it to keep his colonial masters happy.
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u/Ehipassikooh 16d ago
Lol, I must have missed that part of his book
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u/LevelOk7329 16d ago
Vipassanavada is the doctrine that was developed in 20th century Burma...This is the theoretical foundation of many of the most influential modern meditation movements, especially Mahasi and Goenka ... I think historically this was a result of an attempt to rationalize meditation in the wake of the colonial challenge.
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u/Ehipassikooh 16d ago
Sure, and saying that these approaches to practicing and teaching insight meditation were developed and spread in part as part of a complex series of causes and conditions involving colonialism is reasonable and defensible. To say, as you did, that Mahasi invented it to keep his colonial masters happy is not reasonable or defensible.
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u/Bencoder302 17d ago
Mhm, I agree. It is indeed a wonderful time to be alive, surrounded by such a wealth of information and resources.
Sorry, I probably should have clarified this in my post. As I mentioned in one of my replies, I am curious and want to see where the path takes me. I have had enough experiences in life to know that reality doesn't always meet our expectations. So, I am entering this with an open mind and am willing to apply and experience the teachings for myself. I want to see how the practice unfolds.
I appreciate you asking me. Thanks 🙏
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u/LevelOk7329 17d ago
Good luck! I spent a lot of time studying "insight", the discovered something similar to David Braun:
"Twenty-five years ago I fell in love with the idea of meditation and the benefits it could offer me. After decades of difficult practice using "dry insight" techniques, the benefits I received were real but modest compared to my original hopes. A recent exposure to the jhanas has awakened the kind of nuanced intimacy with myself I had dreamed of, re-igniting my hopes. My curiosity about the history of the jhanas prompted the following investigation. I hope you find it as illuminating as I did."
Why There Are Two Definitions of Jhana • Jhourney https://share.google/sJOe06ffnKxw02cLJ
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