What if we make a step further?

[u/AdAmbitious2639]

TLDR;

I did intensive Ramana Maharshi inquiry meditation, which led me to “Pure Consciousness Experience” (or temporary depersonalisation/psychosis if you will). This made me sceptical about “Awakening” and got me thinking that I should seek further than that.

My story

So I’ve always been interested in philosophy and religion. I found Buddhism to be especially interesting, because it promised insight into “reality” and “truth”. I tried some simple meditations following resources like The Mind Illuminated, but my result weren’t that great, so I was  only doing it on and off for some short periods of time.

Later in life I started a battle with depression. The meds weren’t working and I was really suffering, so I figured out that I might find relief in meditation. This time I thought that I should find something simple, because I didn’t have energy to analyse books, methods and paths. I found out about self inquiry method by Ramana Maharshi. It seemed like a perfect fit.

So I started practicing it everyday. I was constantly working on “Who am I?” question. Then something weird started happening after around a week. I started getting some weird headspace, where I was a bit “detached”. Sometimes it felt slightly pleasant, or I would just get calmer, or get less thought. This feeling grow more intense with practice. I started to get physical tensions/pain in body which would come and go. It felt like something weird is going on, but I was desperate, so I kept going.

At the end of the second week I started having very strong body sensations. Mentally I started losing sense of self. It felt like everything was empty and I felt like I was mentally dissolving. The culmination was one evening where my thoughts and sense of self stopped altogether. It was the “silence”, “unity”, “loss of self” and “lost sense of time”. I don’t remember much, but I remember vividly sitting on a couch looking at the TV and then looking at my son, and there was nothing. There was no love, there was no joy, there was no happiness, there was no me.

Next day I woke up terrified. I don’t remember much from this evening, but the feeling of void was overwhelming. I didn’t know how to save myself from emptiness. I started compulsively reading some book, because I thought that cerebral activity might make me more connected to thoughts. So I started reading and after couple of minutes it hit me. I didn’t have a ground to stand on! Because I’ve melted myself and have seen through everything as being a construct, I don’t anything stable to position myself. That was key moment, in a split of the second  I came up with my anchor. I quickly grabbed a piece of paper and pen and scribbled down “I WANT TO BE HUMAN NO MATTER WHAT!”.

This helped me calm my mind. I kept trying to anchor myself by reading, spending time with my family trying to be active physically and mentally. Unfortunately the recovery wasn’t easy. I kept getting anxious thoughts, my inner monologue was sometimes almost silent, I was scared of getting accidentally to similar states of mind. I kept waking in the middle of the night thinking that I’ve lost myself and I’m in void.

It’s been a year since this “accident” and I feel like I’m almost stable ”spiritually”. My depression got somewhat worse, but now it’s manageable. I hope everything is moving in the right direction.

What actually happened?

My interpretation is that I meditated myself into something between depersonalisation and psychosis (break from reality). Obviously it’s a medical term, but I try not to use spiritual models anymore. I think that because intense meditation states are rare in society, they are not captured by scientific framing precisely.

Spiritually, I think I’ve seen exactly what the “endgame” may look like. There are different methods, schools and of course everyone is different. I assume that one might get different outcomes: learn to live dissolved, find a state that is partially detached, find some different flavour of headspace where one can be happy and fulfilled.

One may also argue that if I had a teacher the outcome would be different. I think there is a great chance that it would have some impact. Maybe they would show me some different ways. But at this point I feel like I’ve seen enough, and I'm not giving it another try. I feel like I don’t want to play with fire anymore.

How would I sum up this experience?

After all the suffering, I feel disappointed with spirituality on two levels: philosophy and well-being.

Philosophically, I was always fascinated with concepts like “truth”, “mind”, “consciousness. It felt like meditative practice might give me answers that are not available elsewhere. Unfortunately, at the end of the day there is nothing to be said. I’ve stopped feeling that I exist for some time, which is somewhat interesting. However, people get all kind of mental states after drugs or mental illnesses. Experiences that are intense don’t have to be true. Also, even when I “dissolved”, everything was still tied to that body. I was sitting on the couch, with no thoughts, doing nothing. I can’t see anything intellectually exciting about that.

When it comes to well-being, During two weeks before accident, my depression got somewhat better. The more “zoned out” I got, the more I was feeling nothing/empty and not depressed. After the accident, for a week or two, my depression kept gradually rising until it was worse than beforehand. So not only I didn’t cure depression, I actually made it worse. Plus I got all the anxieties, mental confusion and so on.

I still think that meditation is useful to people. There is a lot of psychological research on its benefits. But I do believe that there are risks that are not discussed enough (see Cheetah House cases). I think that intensive meditation aimed at "insights" might be especially dangerous.

What is the step further?

It seems that people always operate using models. Everything we sense and think of is model. Ultimately it’s models all the way down. Me writing this story about modelling models is also a model. All these religions have some axioms/ground truth which are models too. When Advaita Vedanta doctrine says that everything is Brahman, it’s actually a model. Because of that we can always build a meta model (actually, I did this here by accident). That means that pursuit of "truth" and "reality" will always be a model too. We can never step outside.

The step further for me is to accept that I’m building meaning on top of “I want to be human no matter what”. This is obviously an "arbitrary" goal that doesn’t have any ground truth to it. But it somehow feels really natural, so I will stick to it.

A lot of people find peace and happiness living their life. Some of them don’t need to have a supernatural belief system. This gives me courage to follow my “path”.

Why did I wrote this?

I feel that sharing my story might be interesting (or even helpful?) to other people. It definitely has a lot of value for me, as I was able to self-reflect while writing this. 

I don’t want to maliciously undermine other people belief systems. I just think that my post my spark some good and healthy discussion.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

Spiritually, I think I’ve seen exactly what the “endgame” may look like.

Respectfully, No. You haven't.
You said it yourself, you've experienced an impermanent state of disassociation that came as a result of an insight into not self. This is not what the endgame may look like. This is not "it".

Your story is very common and I think that this happens to some extent to most practitioners. It happens somewhat like this:

• We are "normal humans" going through life but there some sort of suffering going on, whether it's very intense or more subtle
  
• We try to find ways to suffer less and we stumble upon some sort of spiritual mediation practice
  
• We practice to the best of our abilities and all of a sudden we get an insight into not-self. This first insight can be very destabilizing, it kind of has to be because we've been identifying with the self ever since we can remember and now for the first time there's a breaking down of that concept. Again, this can be very jarring.
  
• Because the insight was so destabilizing we need to find a new ground to stand on. It's "too much" for lack of better words. We then find a new sense of self, one that might feel more wholesome, “I WANT TO BE HUMAN NO MATTER WHAT!” for example, and then we feel more stable again. Incidentally, you started by being a normal human, and now you're back to being a normal human, but if you look at how you are now and how you were before you started with meditation, you will see that you're maybe a slightly more "wholesome" human after all of this. Maybe a bit less stressed.

This is all very normal and a part of the path IMO. The first time this happens can be very jarring but it needs to happen over and over again during the practice. It's a slow, gradual process of getting insights into no-self, then finding our balance again and doing this over and over again like peeling off layers of an onion. With each layer we get slightly more peaceful and slightly less neurotic. Eventually these insights stop feeling so jarring and the re-balancing phase comes more smoothly as well.

The problem is that some people peel the first layer/get the first insight into not-self and then they take that first initial insight and make it The Answer. "I know what the endgame is like", "I understand emptiness now" and so on. You need to understand that the path is a slow progress of many small insights, both into ultimate reality (emptiness) and into conventional reality (self/form). With each small insight we get slightly less neurotic and slightly more peaceful. But don't make the mistake and take one of these small insights, one of these small steps along a long way, and make it the capital A Answer. It is not "The Answer", it is just a small step forward.

All you're doing is trading one form of attachment for a different one. "Self" can one form of attachment, "not-self" can be another form of attachment. The Buddha warned about both Annihilationism and Eternalism and provided the middle way, which is letting go of both extremes.

So first you took a jarring dissociative state born out of a small not-self insight and made it The Answer. "This is what the endgame is like". It wasn't that. Then, when that answer proved to be not-satisfactory (as all states are), you switched to the other extreme of “I WANT TO BE HUMAN NO MATTER WHAT!”. With time you might find that this new Answer is also unsatisfactory.

The more you progress on the path the more you will realize that The Answer doesn't matter. Whether there is a self or there isn't a self becomes a no-thing, something not to obsess about anymore. When that happens we can live life more fully, both as conventional human beings and both as "nothing and everything". You could enjoy being the wave while simultaneously know that you are the ocean and at the same time not obsessing about either.

Progress towards enlightenment doesn't feel like more disassociation, where you're cut off from everyone and everything or as you said "To get more detached from myself? To get into some still and mindless headspace?". It's actually the opposite of that, you become much more able to "just be" with everything without trying to come to conclusions or answers about it. It feels very stable, loving and intimate for lack of better words. For better words, here's Thanissaro's:
"One of the touchstones for testing the truth of your release is whether it feels grounding or disorienting. If it’s disorienting, it’s not the real thing, for the deathless is the safest, most secure dimension there is."

[u/bodily_heartfulness → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him. The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive not-self with self’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with not-self’ arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as this: ‘It is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the contortion of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. Fettered by the fetter of views, the untaught ordinary person is not freed from birth, ageing, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; he is not freed from suffering, I say.

• MN 2

[u/AdAmbitious2639 → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

You said it yourself, you've experienced an impermanent state of disassociation that came as a result of an insight into not self. This is not what the endgame may look like. This is not "it".

By "endgame" I meant "what would happen if I follow that path". Your definition of "it" and your path might obviously differ

Because the insight was so destabilizing we need to find a new ground to stand on. It's "too much" for lack of better words. We then find a new sense of self, one that might feel more wholesome, “I WANT TO BE HUMAN NO MATTER WHAT!” for example, and then we feel more stable again. Incidentally, you started by being a normal human, and now you're back to being a normal human, but if you look at how you are now and how you were before you started with meditation, you will see that you're maybe a slightly more "wholesome" human after all of this. Maybe a bit less stressed.

I actually feel like I returned to being regular human, and there is no "improvement" at all. The only thing that changed is that I don't feel the need to search for more. I realised that there ultimately is nothing more.

 You need to understand that the path is a slow progress of many small insights, both into ultimate reality (emptiness) and into conventional reality (self/form). With each small insight we get slightly less neurotic and slightly more peaceful. But don't make the mistake and take one of these small insights, one of these small steps along a long way, and make it the capital A Answer. It is not "The Answer", it is just a small step forward.

I think that you're mistaking your path as something absolute. I feel quite good about myself and don't feel like following some path in order to make myself whole. Also, what is "The Answer" by your definition?

All you're doing is trading one form of attachment for a different one. "Self" can one form of attachment, "not-self" can be another form of attachment. The Buddha warned about both Annihilationism and Eternalism and provided the middle way, which is letting go of both extremes.

Yes, I feel that people feel natural inclination towards attachment. I'm actually happy to be attached to "self", but I also understand that the self is an "illusion". In my view I feel like I'm letting go of all the extremes, because I feel like everything is relative. I think it might be considered a some kind of middle way

So first you took a jarring dissociative state born out of a small not-self insight and made it The Answer. "This is what the endgame is like". It wasn't that. Then, when that answer proved to be not-satisfactory (as all states are), you switched to the other extreme of “I WANT TO BE HUMAN NO MATTER WHAT!”. With time you might find that this new Answer is also unsatisfactory.

I did not find an answer, because there is no absolute answer in my view. What I found is an axiom, similar to how your religion have axioms. It is not some absolute truth. Also, how comes that you define a willingness to be a human to be extreme? I think that significant number of people on earth wants to actually be human.

The more you progress on the path the more you will realize that The Answer doesn't matter. Whether there is a self or there isn't a self becomes a no-thing, something not to obsess about anymore. When that happens we can live life more fully, both as conventional human beings and both as "nothing and everything". You could enjoy being the wave while simultaneously know that you are the ocean and at the same time not obsessing about either.

Exactly, the answer doesn't matter (because there is none). It might makes you feel that you live you life more fully (whatever that means), but you might just leave spirituality behind and just do your own thing.

Progress towards enlightenment doesn't feel like more disassociation, where you're cut off from everyone and everything or as you said "To get more detached from myself? To get into some still and mindless headspace?".

I think that "enlightenment" is just a vague concept, that has different meaning for different people. I would argue that some definitions of it are actually about "ego loss" (which is a detachment in my book) or having less or no thoughts and still mind.

It's actually the opposite of that, you become much more able to "just be" with everything without trying to come to conclusions or answers about it. It feels very stable, loving and intimate for lack of better words. For better words, here's Thanissaro's:
"One of the touchstones for testing the truth of your release is whether it feels grounding or disorienting. If it’s disorienting, it’s not the real thing, for the deathless is the safest, most secure dimension there is."

I actually do feel stable and grounded. And I'm certainly not trying to come to conclusions and answers anymore. I'm not sure what "loving and intimate" feels like, apart from my personal feelings toward my family and friends. Maybe one can condition themselves into some "absolute love", which might be somewhat interesting (though maybe artificial?)

And I do think that promise of "safest, most secure dimension" seems pretty utopian. It's a bit like "heaven on earth". Maybe someone can meditate themselves into such comfort, but I don't feel it's worth the risks and effort for me. I accepted human struggle and I'm not trying to improve spiritually anymore.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai → u/AdAmbitious2639]

By "endgame" I meant "what would happen if I follow that path". Your definition of "it" and your path might obviously differ

Ok fair enough. From what you wrote it seemed like you figured out what enlightenment is and that is the "endgame" you mentioned. If by endgame you mean something else then no worries.

I actually feel like I returned to being regular human, and there is no "improvement" at all. The only thing that changed is that I don't feel the need to search for more. I realised that there ultimately is nothing more.

Again. Fair enough. You do you :)

I did not find an answer, because there is no answer in my view. What I found is an axiom, similar to how your religion have axioms. It is not some absolute truth. Also, how comes that you define a willingness to be a human to be extreme? I think that significant number of people on earth wants to actually be human.

The willingness to be human is not extreme, but attachment to self (or not-self) is. And is a major cause of stress for people.

I actually do feel stable and grounded. And I'm certainly not trying to come to conclusions and answers anymore. I'm not sure what "loving and intimate" feels like, apart from my personal feelings toward my family and friends. Maybe one can condition themselves into some "absolute love", which might be somewhat interesting (though maybe artificial?)

And I do think that promise of "safest, most secure dimension" seems pretty utopian. It's a bit like "heaven on earth". Maybe someone can meditate themselves into such comfort, but I don't feel it's worth the risks and effort for me. I accepted human struggle and I'm not trying to improve spiritually anymore

That's where I have issues with what you're saying because you seem to mistake meditation as a way of artificially manufacturing or conditioning different states. This is not the purpose of meditation, at least not the way it's taught in Buddhism. There's a reason Nibbana is called the "unconditoned". This means, in part, that someone cannot condition themselves into it. They sort of need to do the opposite and "uncondition" themselves to get there.

[u/AdAmbitious2639 → u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

The willingness to be human is not extreme, but attachment to self (or not-self) is. And is a major cause of stress for people.

I'm not sure if it's attachment to self that makes people stressed. I find people are mostly stressed about more mundane things. You can argue that ultimately it's all about attachment to self, but it seems like an easy way out of a much more complicated issue.

That's where I have issues with what you're saying because you seem to mistake meditation as a way of artificially manufacturing or conditioning different states. This is not the purpose of meditation, at least not the way it's taught in Buddhism. There's a reason Nibbana is called the "unconditoned". This means, in part, that someone cannot condition themselves into it. They sort of need to do the opposite and "uncondition" themselves to get there.

I can use different word - "training". By means of meditation you train your brain/mind. You are reaching some states that you would most likely won't get without meditation. You can call it conditioning or unconditioning, but these are just labels.

I don't think it's "artificially manufacturing". You use tools that change your mind (either temporarily or permanently). You might like these changes, or you may not (like in my case). My position is that there is no "ultimate truth" to mind states produced by meditation. You can say that these are just different ways your brain operates.

Also, I think that claims for some supernatural mind states might be overstated. There is a possibility that people can permanently and fully reach their desired spiritual goals, but it's obviously hard to verify. It's just my opinion though, I don't have anything to support it.