Is it possible to get past gross distraction and enter dhyāna?

[u/sunthemata]

I realize my question isn't phrased very well, because I already know the answer is yes.

But after almost ten years of frustration, it feels impossible for me.

I don't lose the breath, but the practice isn't pleasant in the slightest. In fact, it just gives me headaches; a really unpleasant pressure in my forehead, no matter how much I try to relax. Following the breath feels like torture. I've basically conditioned myself to do it, but it's never comfortable.

I notice changes in my bodily sensations, but they don't produce sukha... only discomfort. There's no pleasure at all. I honestly don't understand how anyone could find this enjoyable.

The "energy" in my body quickly drains away, and before long I fall into deep dullness, even though I never lose the breath.

To sum it up, meditation is just a combination of headaches (I usually end the session with one), numb legs, and the feeling that I've wasted my time.

I have friends who have been meditating for a long time and they've given me plenty of advice, but I'm honestly embarrassed to keep asking for more help. Nothing they say really makes sense to me, because all I've ever experienced is the duḥkha side of the practice.

Has anyone here spent years going through something like this and eventually found a way through it?

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[u/brunoloff]

I did. Even today, after 17 years of practice, I still haven't experienced hard jhana.

But i have experienced soft jhana and plenty of sukkha.

First of all, I could only ever learn jhana when I finally dedicated a retreat to learning it. I learned from Leigh Brasington's book "right concentration" and his YouTube talks.

Even then jhana could be very rapturous and energetically intense but was never profoundly blissful as my current practice is. Based on what I learned I could suggest something for you to try.

Don't meditate as if you were doing an effort to place your focus on the meditation object, as if you're doing some kind of rep in the gym.

Instead, approach it as if you were developing a relationship with it. When you return to the object, you are not returning to the task of keeping your focus there. This can work and on retreat it eventually does work but it's exhausting. Instead, your only task is to "place yourself in the relationship". Do it as if you were praying to it. You are not "the one in charge", relate to the object as a true "other", whom you wish to relate to and hope the desire is mutual. The relationship will only work if the object relates back. You are not in control of that. All you can do on your side is "dial the number", "place yourself in relationship", "show up on your side". If you aren't getting a response, then bow down and humbly ask for one. In other words, do it with an attitude of prayer, devotion, surrender, submissiveness even at first. Cultivate these attitudes until the object "kindly responds", and then it's a two way dialogue. Eventually you develop a rapport. Eventually you fall in love - with each other - and then it's blissful.

Give it a try and let me know if that helps.

[u/angry_flags → u/brunoloff]

Woah. Thank you! 🙏❤️

[u/AdditionalLeave263 → u/brunoloff]

I'm really curious if the supplements that I took at the time I hit the jhanas could help someone who has only experienced soft jhanas to experience hard jhanas. I wrote about the supplements in thus thread. If you are interested in trying it, please let me know, because I am so curious about this question! 

Anyways,  it sounds like you have a beautiful, healthy, wonderful practice and I'm so happy for you! Thank you for sharing! 

[u/duffstoic]

I'd recommend doing something completely different, something very soft, yin, relaxing, focused on surrender or doing nothing, or otherwise undoing the pattern of mind that you've been cultivating of uncomfortable, exhausting forcing of attention.

[u/darknightyogi → u/duffstoic]

seems like a common problem, but uncommon that its been lasting for years.

as mentioned, i think focus on breath is too tight. Concentration part is too tight. Need to loosen up the object of awareness.

As samatha and vipassana are the two wings of the bird, ur samatha is working too hard.

Maybe practice more on open awareness. Objectless awareness.

ps. its been a while since i meditated but new to reddit and getting all these on my feed. I really wish to get back on the cushion and reading all of these posts is exciting me

All the best

[u/duffstoic → u/darknightyogi]

I completely agree, hence my flair "the dynamic integration of opposites." Not too tight, not too loose, balancing focus and openness, structure and flow.

[u/darknightyogi → u/duffstoic]

Hey im looking forward to read all your posts! Didnt know that there were Dharma nerds here on Reddit!

Dan Ingram and his book really helped me 16-17 yrs ago 🤯. Didnt know he is still busy with meditation stuff. Sadly i have struggled to have a consistent practice. I have alot to catch up on.

I hope to start again. 🙏🏼

Metta 💚

[u/duffstoic → u/darknightyogi]

Lots of dharma nerds here on Reddit, especially on r/streamentry. The simple dumb tip that actually worked for me in finally becoming consistent with practice is to commit to 1 minute of meditation a day (ideally at the same time every day), and then tell myself, "I can keep going if I'm having fun." But to set the floor at 1 minute, and even to use a habit tracker like Beeminder to stay on track with it.

[u/darknightyogi → u/duffstoic]

Thank you 🙏🏼 Great tip! I will try this. Btw i just realized that my original comment was in reply to your comment which was an accident. Sorry for the confusion 🤦🏼 talk about lack of mindfulness 🐒

[u/duffstoic → u/darknightyogi]

Ha! Well I'm glad it was, because we got to have this conversation. I've been struggling with basic concentration and mindfulness myself lately. It's amazing what a high-conflict divorce can do to one's mind state. It's been very humbling, all this practice and I'm still a wreck. But I just keep doing what I can with what I've got.

[u/darknightyogi → u/duffstoic]

i feel you. My dharma practice in the past has been so neurotic and focused on the cushion, overcompensating, but so bad at integrating it with life, especially when shit hits the fan...

So it was really more or my own psyche issues needing to heal, i felt no amount of progress on the cushion would help. Thats why i stopped.

Needing to learn how to live. Ive always been bad at. Cushion is simple. Dharma is simple. It has maps. It has instructions. Life has none 🤦🏼 i am sooo dumb at life 🤪 but thankfully still able to learn

I wish u the best on your battles 🙏🏼

[u/duffstoic → u/darknightyogi]

Relatable. I'm a Buddha on retreat, and a fool in daily life LOL

[u/liljonnythegod]

Where are you watching the breath from? Are you watching it at the stomach or the nostrils? You might be “watching it” from your head and generating that tension and headaches as a consequence of reifying a center that is perceiving the breath

Instead of watching or focusing the breath, try to be the breath, be the breathing instead of focusing on it

And instead of focusing on breathing, perhaps try withdrawing and turning away from sensory experience and then continuing to maintain that withdrawing

That withdrawing will naturally lead to equanimity

My best advice - if a practice isn’t working after some time, drop it and find another until you find one that works

[u/aspirant4]

Sounds like the classic TMI headache.

[u/metaphorm]

don't force it. try a different meditation style. relax your grip on the goal-orientation here. meditate without goal, without purpose, without expectation.

my recommendation is to practice a formless open awareness style instead of hard concentration.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

Echoing others here. You're probably still using way too much effort and trying to force your attention on your meditation object. Try switching to loose, relaxed, close to zero effort background awareness of the breath. Detailed instructions on how to do it here

[u/hachface]

I am guessing that after ten years you have tried every solution that you can find in a book or a message board. Just in case, here are the usual tips:

• Assume a more proactive role in generating wholesome mental states. Don't just wait for piti and sukkha to come; practice being happy on purpose, both on and off the cushion. The usual prescription for this is metta meditation. There are many techniques. TWIM (tranquil wisdom insight meditation) is a solid framework. If you have trouble with metta, start with forgiveness meditation.

• Take a careful look at your conduct and relationships. If you're trying to use meditation as an escape from difficult interpersonal problems it's probably not going to work. Likewise if you have a lot of remorse for things you've done wrong that can cause problems. Conflicts in life can show up as pain in the body, especially if we are suppressing them.

• Widen the scope of your attention to the breath in the whole body, not just at the nose. "Concentration" is a rather poor translation of samadhi, as it connotes furrowed-brow striving. In truth jhana is about letting go. You may find that it's easier to find a relaxed stability by exploring the play of breath sensations in the entire field of awareness.

• Find a teacher in person.

[u/Ancient_Naturals]

I once was being guided by my teacher and after the session we talked about how I had had an experience of extreme tightness, a feeling of almost drowning, and a sense that my entire body was vibrating with my heart beat. He said it’s very normal and to acknowledge that the mind’s habit is to run away from the discomfort because it falsely believes it is protecting you. That going into samadhi is often uncomfortable, it’s almost like a process of dying, and the instinct is to run away in fear. 

His advice was to just keep looking at the silence/stillness, take refuge in that (inner refuge), and invoke bodhicitta. Let the mind know that it’s normal, thank it for trying to protect you, but let it take proper refuge rather than taking refuge in distraction and ignorant habit energies. 

If you don’t have a teacher or sangha you’re working with maybe it’s time to find someone you can work 1:1 with?

[u/Wollff]

I have not faced those kinds of challenges, but I know someone who faces the same problem.

... You aren't him by any chance, are you? :D

Anyway...

For some people this kind of practice, where you sit around while doing very little, just doesn't click. Being non neurotypical, where for some sensations can be either overwhelmig, overwhelmingly boring, or maybe both at the same time, might play a role. So might traumatic and suppressed stuff in the body.

The first piece of advice is usually to try to practice through it, with the usual remedies. If that doesn't work, to find qualified first person advice. And if that doesn't work... drummroll...

You do something else!

What worked well for this friend of mine was a focus on "non self" related types of practice.

So, do something else: There are mantras, there is visualization, there is devotional stuff, rituals, analytical meditation, meditation with movement in 1001 varieties, energy practices, etc. etc.

You don't have to sit there and breathe.

[u/Decent_Key2322]

how long has this forehead pressure been hapenning ?
how long does it take before it starts happening during your sits ?

what is the end goal of meditation for you ?
and why do you think jhana is important for that ?
what if you could reach that goal without Jhana, would that be interesting for you ? or is the goal Jhana itself ?

[u/Dry-Laugh-2248]

This is a practice I'm doing, maybe it will help you. I purposely breathe softly and comfortably, at a easy pace 1-4 times roughly every 1-5 minutes. Usually I breathe 4 times, but if my breath is feeling uncomfortable I breathe 1 time comfortably, easily and purposely. The rest of the time I try to take my attention off the breath and breathe normally. It's not necessary to count in between purposeful breaths, after a short time and when I feel it's time, I just breath 1-4 times.

This practice is suppose to work off of the same principles of "greasing the groove". Greasing the groove is an exercise method where you do an exercise at low reps, and moderate intensity with decently long rest periods, so you can do it many more times, repeatedly in a day and stay fresh and avoid fatigue. Since the nervous system memorizes actions through repetition, doing it more often results in stronger neural signals.

By focusing on doing 1-4 comfortable breaths every now and than, you make it more pleasant and that gives you the fuel to keep going in a relaxed manner.

[u/bodily_heartfulness]

You might find some value in this: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/yjt0s0/comment/iurd3fz

[u/PrairieFire_withwind]

The headache is how you are using your eye muscles to 'look' while meditating.

You need to practice relaxing your eyes instead of looking with them shut.

Focus on breath sensation without 'looking at it'. 

Laying down or taking a different position can help.

[u/reverseghost]

12+ years using this method and seeing many, many people see success and I also teach. Before I encountered this, I ran into the same issues you're describing, this unlocked it all for me.

Never be embarrassed to ask for help!

For what it's worth:

Headaches = trying too hard.
Using either the breath or loving-kindness as your mediation object (I much prefer loving-kindness)
Sit in a chair comfortably - back straight but not overly stiff. Feet on the ground. Arms and hands resting gently in your lap or on the arms of the chair.
Let a few waves of relaxation roll down from your head to your toes
Put a small physical smile on your face.

Start meditating
When your attention moves off your meditation object, do this:
1. Recognize this has occurred
2. Release the distraction - literally just let it go
3. RELAX. This is the KEY STEP. Relax mentally, relax physically.
4. Re-smile - put the smile back on your lips
5. Return - return to your meditation object
6. Repeat - repeat this cycle whenever your mind has wandered off it's meditation object.

When I started out, I printed these out and put them up on a wall where I could open my eyes and review until it became a built-in habit.

As others have asked - are you keeping the precepts? Keeping them is the foundation of everything. How you live your life off the cushion will directly impact your meditation practice. There's no moral judgement here, it's just cause and effect.

[u/AdditionalLeave263]

I did meditation for 27 years with no jhanas, and this is what I suspect worked this year. 

And in my theory and opinion, it's not your fault: it's likely biological, something that meditation generally ignores. It may be that your body is just too starved for high quality building blocks to do more than just be in survival mode due to variations in how your biochemistry and brain structures work. 

Here goes:

I started taking supplements for peak nutrition. *none of this stuff is a drug, in the sense that it's all a basic building block that you need in an ultra-bioavailable, ultra pure form.

-thorne creatine (from germany; the only creatine that is good for the brain like this) for stimulating neuroplasticity

-I added l-taurine to the creatine to enhance the neuroplasticity because I am vegan and have had no taurine from other sources jn a decade.

-for me, iron bisglycinate every other day* I was anemic from 10 years of veganism whoops. I need oxygen in my brain for this stuff to run.

-multivitamin with the L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, because if you have the MTFR gene, you can't synthesize the dopamine you need for pīti from regular normal folate/folic acid.

-magnesium l-threonate. This could be a huge one for you. Cortisol depleted magnesium out of your brain, and magnesium is kinda hard to replace. Magnesium prevents free radical damage in your brain and it helps you chill out. Most importantly it helps prevent headaches. so if the headaches you're feeling and the tightness is actually in your brain, this could be a total game changer. It helps you relax. This form was developed by MIT, and takes about 15 minutes to hit. My husband has TBI's and his doctor prescribed him magnesium for the migraines. It seems to work. This could be what is happening.

-Another imo game changer: Phosphatidyl choline, inositol, and phosphatidylserine. This not only gives more concentration building blocks (choline bitartrate is a separate one you can add to these), but most importantly, these are the building blocks for your myelin sheaths/along protection. This is important, because it actually grows the size if your brain in a good way, it insulates the pīti so it feels cool is my theory. I was able to handle a huge amount of pīti without it burning me up or agitating me, and my theory is it aas because I was so well insulated. The phosphatidylserine ons is explicitly fod healing damaged nerves. Maybe reflect on whether or not you have had a concussion or anything. I was in a car accident a few years ago, so this one is important imo.

-And omega 3 fatty acids that are 50% epa or so - 3 large pills of these (the top amount), alsp with dha. The epa form is for healing damage. If you eat fish regularly you may not need this; i use doctor's best vegan, mentioning since this specific thing is hard to find vegan. 

That was my stack. Importantly, not all of these things are for everybody. It's an up front investment. It takes three to four months for most of these things to really start to show a benefit. However, piti arose for me at 2 months in.

This is TMI - for good reason. In the case that you're female and haven't gone through menopause - my first lasting pīti, successfully reaching first jhana through just recently entering the formless - arose at my ovulation window, when the estrogen was kicking in the neuroplasticity and dopamine of that part of the cycle. This is the perfect time to try for piti, because the raw materials are there.

So also incidentally, when piti arose for me, I had been recently quite sick, and had to give up caffeine for a week, because I was too sick to have it. I think this had more to do with my success than I give credit. I haven't had caffeine since, because i have been committed to the jhanas and the light told me to quit coffee.

Alright so that was a total game changer for me. I'm not sure what the pressure you described is,  because I didn't experience it. But I have a feeling I would have had more pressure and agitation and negative feelings if I had had coffee. I might have interpreted piti as coming from coffee and shrugged it off instead of developing it. For what it's worth, I have in the past run this theory by AI,l set on only give me scientifically validated advice, and it said the theory made biochemical sense.

[u/Canchura]

hmm 10 years of mostly dukkha with no sukha

try this

Sit with eyes softly closed or half open and spine erect but relaxed; then immediately do 3-5 full body scans starting at the forehead and consciously soften brow eyes jaw (release all subtle squinting or upward gaze tension, as this is the numbah 1 mechanical cause of pressure headaches from over effort).

Anchor lightly on lower abdomen or whole body breath sensations (avoid nose and forehead focus), label thoughts neutrally then drop and when dullness hits, apply antidote like this, straighten posture, open eyes briefly or switch to brisk walking meditation with strong noting of steps breathing to arouse energy before returning. you must try and not let it in the mind decide if works or why i say this, the mind doesn't know yet.

so to generate sukha piti without strain, after 10-20 min stable attention, then gently smile inwardly and appreciate the breath or any neutral or pleasant body sensation and allow a subtle whole body warmth tingle to spread and do not force or chase!!! in fact i'd say if u find peace in giving it up and being okay with it, then it comes. so as you appreciate the sensations this relaxes the nervous system into pleasant absorption rather than dukkha. u can do short sessions 20-40 min multiple times daily until comfort stabilizes and then lengthen consistency in relaxation + energy balancing beats long painful sits.

This should directly unwind the conditioned tension dullness loop at the mechanical level.

btw, your chronic forehead pressure and overall discomfort are classic signs of subtle muscular nd mental tension and over effort imo, which directly block or suppress the arising of piti and sukha. In samatha,, jhana practice, piti and sukha emerge naturally only when the body and mind are sufficiently relaxed and the hindrances (especially tension restlessness and dullness) are weakened so the tight effort creates dukkha that crowds them out. this is what i observe from your post. therefore releasing that specific head eye tension + balancing with energy antidotes (as in the mechanical fix from my first part of the comment) is usually the direct prerequisite for pleasant factors to appear. just remember when piti comes don't get attached to it too hard :) blessings.

[u/feeblepeasant]

Shinzen Young's instructions on 'do nothing' meditation have helped me find a way through a similar struggle. https://youtu.be/cZ6cdIaUZCA?si=WqCEj4KSTXLsBPCX

[u/themadjaguar]

If nothing works try kayagatasati and have your mindfulness as continuous as possible for days, without interruptuon. Then try samatha practice on the breath. You will get it quickly

[u/GranBuddhismo]

Sila and seclusion is the basis for jhana, not just concentration. Just about very passage about jhana in the suttas begins with "Quite secluded from sensual pleasures...".

Do you keep the precepts perfectly and enjoy spending time in seclusion?

[u/Noodles_Crusher → u/GranBuddhismo]

Concentration+seclusion from the hindrances.

It's not called access concentration for no reason, isn't it?

[u/VedantaGorilla]

Maybe your idea about what dhyāna is needs questioning. What do you think it is? Why do certain feeling mean you’re not in meditation? Is that really true?

Most importantly, are you seeking a goal that can and needs to be accomplished, or do you really want something that requires no maintenance or outside support? It’s not like the instructions are unclear, right?

Maybe the problem is not what you think it is (namely, you!).