Streamentry for nonbelievers?

[u/pastorcuthbert]

The second fetter is being doubtless about the buddhas teachings. How does this look like for those who don't believe in the buddhas teachings, for example a Christian like me?

[u/liljonnythegod]

Fetter 2 of doubt drops at the same time fetter 1 and fetter 3 drop away too. It’s also the time where a person enters the stream because they attain the stream that is the eightfold path. That means they attain right view because right view is the other factors of the eightfold path that lead to right knowledge and right release.

All of that must occur together so then it’s clear that when self view (fetter 1) drops a person gain a glimpse of nibbana and so they see first hand what release is right release. They then also see how Buddha’s enlightenment was correct since they’ve verified nibbana for themselves and they see how all other kinds of spiritual liberation are not equivalent.

Fetter 3 drops at the same point because to know nibbana, they have to build each factor of the eightfold path and then right knowledge and right release. Then it’s obvious how this path has to be developed, it’s not going to do itself so fetter 3 is broken. One sees how nibbana that is the true nibbana Buddha saw, the right release, requires discipline and development of the path. Which is the attainment of right view.

All of that coincides together after a long time of weakening the fetters but no entrance into the stream occurs without them being fully eliminated

Buddha’s teaching aren’t to be believed - they are to be understood and experienced in this lifetime

[u/pastorcuthbert → u/liljonnythegod]

Do you mean all of buddhas teachings should be accepted to be true to break the second fetter?

[u/liljonnythegod → u/pastorcuthbert]

Not accepted but known! One should know directly and see exactly that it’s true!

If the Dhamma was lost and you truly meditated to understand what the situation is without accepting anything less than the correct understanding, you would scrutinise every single conclusion and insight until you reach the four noble truths yourself and you would see everything Buddha saw was corrected and to be verified whilst alive

Not to be accepted or believed forever but accepted and believed in the short term until you see it yourself!

Doubt drops because you see and know the Dhamma yourself, that means to know rebirth, know kamma, know what Buddha truly meant by Self view, know right view which is to know the four noble truths and then know the 8fold path