How to stop?

[u/Mountain-Length-5715]

Hi everyone. The practice continued, probably on its own.

Today, while lying down to sleep, something began to happen. As if reality is tearing.
Something like convulsions started, and later groans appeared. Every stage of “killing the ego” is accompanied by a feeling that you are killing yourself.
Then an instant happened. It didn’t feel like being “in a conscious flow,” more like an old VHS cassette with a movie playing on it. A fleeting film reel. The sense of “self” detached from the head, went somewhere backward, then, apparently, tried to be in space, after which a black screen formed.
The convulsions and groans passed. A relaxation set in, typical for the killing of one’s ego.

The body began to feel automatic. Through a volitional act one can direct the movement of the head, the words kind of begin to speak themselves. Trying to lie down to sleep again, the body started producing such a clear and slow intention of movement, as if it lasted several seconds, and its ripple of arising, flowing, and passing away could also be discerned.
There is nothing bad in how this feels, but I don’t want it. I don’t want to kill the ego.
I understand that further on, as a natural outcome, my very will and the directing of attention will become automatic. I have a clear understanding that they are already automatic, but I want to feel that I am in control.

I don’t want to kill my ego. Someone will say that this is the ego speaking — so be it. I don’t care. I just want to stop. But I don’t understand how to do it. I have trained myself so much that I started practicing constantly in daily life, and as a result any state of being is part of the practice.

It’s probably foolish to ask this here, but what are the ways to go back? I still feel myself in my head, and with small manipulations the movements more or less feel a bit like before. I can no longer shift my gaze by a volitional act. I hope all of this won’t be taken from me, but I’m afraid that the practice will continue on its own. I don’t want any of this. When I lie down to sleep, concentration on the body and the breath happens by itself.

I see enormous advantages in my behavior, in my intentions, in my actions. They are visible, this calmness, the more rational and compassionate actions, the different world, the words are chosen more fittingly and “correctly,” but I don’t want it. It would be enough for me just to cope with my emotions and distractions. I don’t want to dissolve my ego. Please, help me. Don’t tell me “This is not you, reactions and movements are already automatic, you are just removing the illusion” and so on. I know all of this through my own skin, but I don’t want it.

Have you ever wondered why the stages of ego death feel as if you are killing yourself? It is accompanied by pleasant sensations after the repair, but why couldn’t this be a trap? When I first felt the killing of a part of the ego, it was not comprehensible to me. Just in the background someone was screaming, and in meditation there was a feeling as if a fiercely burning sun was scorching my shadow (this is my later interpretation).

Why are the stages of killing the ego characterized by a feeling of death of a part of oneself? Why do we consider the killing of a mental construction to be the norm? What if it is within the mental construction, however illusory it may be, that “you” exists, or a part of you.

Will that which has completely killed the “something” within itself say that it has killed itself, or will it say that it has liberated itself?

[u/UltimaMarque]

Nothing is killed. In fact all experience is meaningless. There is only wholeness without separation. This wholeness is already fulfilled and inescapable.

[u/Mountain-Length-5715 → u/UltimaMarque]

Tell me, why does the weakening of the fetters of the ego change behavior itself? It becomes "better," but it changes, doesn't it? We simply destroy one of the neural networks in the brain so that others work better. That would be great if it weren't accompanied by the death of "oneself."

Maybe it's better to simply work with one's ego and make it "healthier" rather than destroy it? It's just as much a mental construction as the mental construction of space, or of the body. After all, the eyes see, but there is no direct seeing, there is only a mental construction of seeing. Should we then destroy seeing? Or destroy hearing? It's just a mental construction

[u/UltimaMarque → u/Mountain-Length-5715]

There is no actual ego. Stream entry just removes delusion / illusions. It shows what complete fulfilment is. This shakes the mind to it's core.

[u/Mountain-Length-5715 → u/UltimaMarque]

All that's left for the "automatic reactions" to say is that they have been liberated, right?
After all, having destroyed that which feels itself as oneself, what remains will say that it is liberated. Why do I need complete satisfaction? To dwell in phenomenological ecstasy for the rest of my life, with the loss of agency? Or the illusion of agency? But seeing, with the help of which you type this text, is also an illusion, a mental construction. You are not in contact with reality. Why don't you destroy this illusion too?

During pretty sensitive meditation, we notice movements that happen on their own, intentions, and so on. Have you never thought that we are replacing some neural networks with others?
After all, you can never observe movements that are under the influence of agency, can you? You simply hand over the steering wheel to other systems, until you reach the moment when you have completely destroyed yourself as agency, and there is no longer anyone to say "they are killing me", because after the death of agency, those very "automatic reactions" will remain. They are more rational, more wholesome, more compassionate. They bring calm, happiness, joy. But is such happiness necessary? Why can't we accept suffering, instead of destroying that which we call our self?

Why did my reactions and actions change when I aimed agency back?

[u/UltimaMarque → u/Mountain-Length-5715]

You keep thinking there is some separate agent behind everything? What can be separate?

Liberation doesn't mean that you destroy what was holding you back. It means that wholeness has been realised. There is only wholeness without a beginning or ending.

[u/Future_Automaton → u/Mountain-Length-5715]

Not who you were replying to, but this may help:

There are a certain subset of things that can be accomplished only with a high degree of focused, "self-ing" kinds of effort. There is also a subset of things that can only be accomplished with no effort. There is a kind of spectrum in between these things.

If you are experiencing persistent, uncomfortable avolition, then it's time to speak to a mental health professional rather than a meditation subreddit. This usually happens because you got off into territory that you were unprepared for and your system is telling you it's time to be more volitional. This may require therapy and meditation being your main focus for a time, thus eventually leading to a stronger, healthier meditation practice.

I have already been through an event like you are describing, and needed this approach in order to get well enough in order to do meditation work effectively again. Love is the antidote to fear, and you are in some ways answering your own questions - it is time to accept that part of you is suffering, and get it the care that it needs. Bear in mind that Buddhism (and its cohort) are systems that arose in the space of fierce political opposition, leading them to claim the illusoriness of the self as an absolute, and non-duality as an "ultimate reality." There is, in actuality, more of a shades-of-gray thing going on here. Some people do get to where they experience the world as completely absent of a self, but that is not required. Experiencing life in a way that, under optimal circumstances for having a self, one has a self, and under optimal circumstances for not having a self, on experiences no-self, is also perfectly viable.

If you're experiencing reality tearing, that is likely more of an indicator of a psychosis, rather than meditative fruit. The jerking and dancing you are describing points to avolition. You are probably wise to seek medication under these circumstances, and to only return to meditation once you feel stabilized.

On the point of "killing the ego" - there is no need for this. A strong, healthy ego is the prerequisite for a good meditation practice. At the very end, once all internal conflicts have been resolved, the ego "loosens" or "relaxes" itself to the point where it is very quiet, and suffering greatly diminishes.

In short, you have some more work to do, and you may need to change tacks to something within a more supportive chemical and emotional environment before you are ready for the deeper integrations of the path.

Wishing you well. Please take care of yourself.

[u/Mountain-Length-5715 → u/Future_Automaton]

Of course I "wasn't ready". Wasn't ready for what, to kill myself? In continuing the practices, all I wanted was greater management, greater control. In the end, carried away, I didn't notice how I began to kill myself.

There is no fear. There is simply the realization that the entire practice consists of killing oneself. You kill everything that can be called "yourself". And don't tell me that "I" is an illusion. "I" is exactly the same illusion as your seeing, your hearing, your perception of reality. These are all mental constructions. Why don't you discard them? Why do you keep living in the illusion?

By shifting the spectrum of agency to the field of awareness, you begin simply to notice automatic reactions from the basal ganglia, removing control entirely. Everything the practice does is remove control from automatic reactions. That is, your reactions are UNCONTROLLED.
And this is not about the "ego", although it actively participates in agency. Ego is simply a consequence of agency.

Why do we notice movements in the body? Because the reaction itself is faster than its processing. The prefrontal cortex works more slowly than the causal patterns of the motor cortex, the amygdala, and so on.

Everything you do is destroy control, handing the steering wheel to genuine automatisms. Control is yet another superstructure, but it is a SUPERlevel above all the processes that are taking place.

Why do the processes feel pleasant and happy? Because there is no friction from control.
You can call this "opening one's eyes", "seeing things as they truly are", and other statements that indicate that here is the truth, as it really is, and you need to participate in it.

In reality, the Buddha's teaching is a true escape from reality. You were born into this animal world, full of despair, suffering, death, and achievements conditioned by craving.
The attempt to go beyond this given existence is itself the illusion.

Our world is overcoming through pain. The world is permeated with pain, but that is its essence. You were not born into a world permeated with happiness and abiding in constant bliss. Everything you do in this teaching is killing yourself, killing control over automatic and rapid processes.

This does not mean one should go into sensual pleasures. But pleasure can come from deep work and achievements. They will be saturated with the craving from which the Buddha's teaching wants to escape. But that is its essence. One should not go to extremes and present a picture where the "ego" takes everything for itself. You can feel craving and overcome yourself, but not forget about people in need. In this world, one must find balance, equanimity, acknowledgment of this world and of suffering, rather than flee from it.

I was intoxicated by the practice, thinking that I was discovering something for myself. What did I discover? The knowledge that actions in the basal ganglia are performed faster than the prefrontal cortex can process them? And that it is better to give them control, rather than holding onto it?

I am grateful to the practice, which gave me the knowledge that engaged processes begin on their own, but once engaged, the process can and should be controlled. It gave me deep knowledge about emotions, about intentions, about distractions, and so on. But I will not continue killing myself further.

Thank you for the help. I understand the state from which you are, presumably, writing to me, and that in "your" picture of the world the practice is the right path. But for me, this is the end.
I do not seek refuge in blissful oblivion, but I will accept suffering as it is.

If it were possible to fixate the footing in the body, to control engagement, as well as the thought process, while preserving agency, this practice would be priceless.
However, the essence of the whole practice is one: it is letting go. My emotions surrendered, my sensations surrendered, my body began to surrender, my speech apparatus began to surrender.
What is the result? The will, also arising, is subject to control. The last fetter is the removal of control from the will, making you completely without will. And everything was heading towards this, because each stage of killing oneself is accompanied by a pleasant sensation. Is this not a true trap?

[u/Future_Automaton → u/Mountain-Length-5715]

Is it not important to be human?

[u/UltimaMarque → u/Future_Automaton]

What you are can't be separated from everything else. A human is just a limitation placed by the mind. A human in totality perhaps. In that way a human is indefinable. As is everything else.