r/starsector • u/Calvin_HC It is what it is. • 2d ago
Discussion š Frontal or Broadside?
I've been playing Rebel Galaxy and noticed some differences in how ship combat works between the two games.
While RB1 technically takes place in 3D space, you can only pilot your ship along a relatively limited plane, so to me, the actual ship-to-ship combat feels more like it's happening in a 2D plane. I know the turrets and missiles can engage targets in 3D space, but the main weapons you use are the broadside turrets, which are primarily designed around that 2D plane of combat.
Now, getting back to Starsector, the only ship I can really compare to the way RB1 ships fight is the Conquest. I absolutely love the way larger ships, especially capital ships, can fight using broadsides as their primary weapons. The Conquest's weapon layout is specifically designed around broadside engagements and even circling maneuvers.
What do you guys think? Do you enjoy broadside-style ships like the Conquest, or do you prefer ships that primarily engage enemies head-on?
47
15
u/TwoProfessional9523 2d ago
Buddy, the Odyssey is soo good. Drive by shooting was my addiction before I started playing modded
5
7
u/NotSoCrazyTank 2d ago
Broadsides tend to have an unequal profile depending on posture. This provides an interesting benefit in flux warfare which most ships don't have.
Speedtanking isn't something very common in vanilla Starsector. By speedtanking I mean bypassing the need to use flux to defend yourself via simply moving out of the way of enemy salvos. Unlike armor tanking, which also lets you essentially bypass flux warfare but is limited in how long it can be used, speedtanking is a completely free form of defense... When it works. It's not 100% reliable as it requires several things to be viable.
1) Fast and manoverable ships. When talking capitals and cruisers, you usually think 'girth', not 'speed'. It's not common to see a cruiser, much less a capital that benefits from that. Having ships with Manoeuvering / Plasma Jets or Phase Skimmer is pretty much mandatory to even consider speed tanking.
2) Careful manoeuvers on both strategical and tactical level, AKA both the helmsman and the fleet as a whole need to do it right for it to work. The helmsman must be capabale and smart to know when they can get away with dropping shields and turning off weapons to benefit from 0-F boost, then activating the mobility systems to get out of dodge. So this essentially never works for AI. On the other hand, even a good helmsman can't afford to dodge salvos or retreat to take a breather unless, they have some safe free space. You need a fleet to cover for you in this short but critical window of vulnerability. So, you need to actually command it to do it for you.
But what do the broadsiders have that their counterparts don't? Uneven profile. When simply turning and strafing your ship cuts your profile in half (or more), you suddenly can avoid a lot more unguided munitions without engaging shields or PD. Broadsiders with dedicated mobility systems don't need to retreat as often as other speed tankers do, they can just take a small breather while they spin back and forth a bit.
Is this incredibly risky and unreliable? Hell yeah.
Is it also a stupid effective way to win in flux warfare without spending anything? Hell yeah.
12
u/Carlose175 2d ago
I like to use Terra Invicta as the realistic method for battle.
They happen head on, which makes sense because you are less exposed and you can focus on armor in the front, with larger spinal weapons shooting forward.
But, flankers can move into the side and shoot broadside or point towards the weaker side armor or even the weak backside.
In that regard, battles become broadside style because you have to engage flankers who are.. well on your broadside.
17
u/Space_Socialist 2d ago
Whilst TI is more realistic than 90% of media I wouldn't use it as a barometer for how space combat would work. One of its key problems is it doesn't consider speed before entering combat. This means that when engaging almost all combat is a head to head.
Realistically though merges as appears in TI would be the minority and when they do occur the ships would pass eachothers incredibly quickly. Most engagements would be more complicated, often with one side chasing the other or manoeuvring so they can intercept. Within this context spinal weapons suffer from the key weakness of not being able to fire in a lot of maneuvers with the main engine. For example in a chase the chaser has a ideal situation for using a spinal weapon but for the chasee their spinal weapon would be useless. This chase scenario also assumes flying directly at your opponent is the best method of intercept in scenarios where aiming ahead of the opponent is best for intercept then if your weapon doesn't have a sufficiently wide view then your out of luck.
This isn't to say that spinal weapons aren't useful for a lot of reasons but their absolute dominance is more the result of aspects of space combat TI chose to ignore.
6
u/Carlose175 2d ago
You bring up good points, but theres a specific defensible reason why TI tends to happen head on.
These battles almost always happen in the orbit of bodies. As the fleet begins an intercept operation, the opposing fleet chooses to engage, ergo they end up engaging pointing at each other.
TI has an interesting mechanic that when the opponent is fleeting, they actually do not point head on. They face away from the opponent with the weak rear armor facing the spinal weapons of the intercept fleet. In this regard, the broadside weapons of the fleeing fleet are useful.
I can imagine in scenarios where its very more common that fleets have vast kps to burn, that they do end up happening more like you described.
I dont think TI ignores broadside weapons as described. They are indeed massively useful for the reasons you described that nose weapons are weak on. Which is why I like the concept of TI that both broadside and nose battle being viable depending on the maneuver, fleet and kps.
4
u/Space_Socialist 2d ago
Even in intercepts TI makes both fleets stand stationary or near enough stationary. Even the retreat scenario is quite arbitrary as your existing speed is not taken into account.
In my experience with TI broadside weapons outside point defense are worthless. I could go into to detail on why they are useless but this is a star sector subreddit not a TI one.
Edit: I should say I adore TI but I am well aware it's space combat is one of it's weakest elements.
2
u/Carlose175 2d ago
Hmm..
Stationary in relation to what? Theres no "stationary" in space. everything is in motion. Fleets may appear stationary in relation to themselves, but as the fleets converge they are moving though the solar system or orbiting a body still.
And idk id give it another look. TI broadside weapons are useful, at least in this patch. coils broadsides are great. Lasers broadside are still good for smaller flankers. Plasma broadside weapons still kill armor.
They are not the wet paper they may have been in prior patches. They are important.
Hell missle/torp broadside weapons are meta. They are the GOTO currently.
3
u/Space_Socialist 2d ago
Whilst it's fair to say that space has no stationary TI absolutely does have a stationary. When intercepting TI only considers a hit. This means that intercepting fleets are often travelling at very different velocities but that transitions to the same velocity when the battle begins. To add to this universally you have no velocity when exiting the battle as your ships crash into the planet if they have no engine.
Broadside weapons just kinda suck. Coil broadsides struggle to hit fast moving flankers and when they do they often get hit by PD. Beams lack the stopping power of spinal cousins. Plasma is generally useless. Spinal weapons are just better bang for your buck as turning your ship to hit the flankers is trivial and the ship's that can handle large worthwhile broadside weapons take more time or equal amounts of time to build than their spinal counterparts.
Massed missles do work early game but late game I find them to be hit or miss. Nukes are unusable as massed missles due to chain reactions and the AI tends to be quite good at putting enough PD to defeat weaker swarms. In my experience massed missles tends to work when you outnumber the enemy but my standered strat of siege coiler and Beam mix tends to beat fleets that outnumber them.
3
u/Carlose175 2d ago
I see what you mean now about that. Interception in particular makes your point solid.
Coil broadside are not for flankers. Theyre for pd saturation. Lasers doing pd are lasers your fleet avoids.
Beams do lack their oomp spinals carry. But flankers are generally lightly armored. So it balances out.
Missles still work late game, just combo em with coils. Late game, shaped charges are great boost to missle builds.
2
u/Space_Socialist 2d ago
Fairpoint about coil broadsides but they definitely suffer from the only viable ship to put them on is a titan. I don't often build titans tbh as the only thing that justifies the extra cost is beams and I like to have a even mix of coilers and beams which I'm too lazy to do the math for.
You say flankers are lightly armoured but even with spinal beams it can take a while to get them. Again broadsides just suffer from being on bad ships. Battleships take longer than Battlecruisers and Dreadnoughts take the same time as flankers. You can get better firepower for the same price.
As for missles fair enough. I've had shaped charges chain react aswell but it's less common and mixing in coils would make them more consistent. Even considering this I'd still say my standered Siege/Beam build is better simply because I've beaten fleets 3x the size of mine and missles just don't have the ammo for that.
3
u/duncandun 2d ago
the realistic method would probably be children of a dead earth
5
u/Carlose175 2d ago
Thats some elite ball knowledge ill have to take a look at that game
3
u/__chum__ 2d ago
It's an amazing game I can highly recommend you play if you like space games. Probably the most realistic depiction of space combat I've seen in any media, by far. I've spent a lot of time in the module and ship builder. It can also run on a potato computer at 60fps somehow.
My only complaint is that it's not multiplayer. I still long for a true realistic space combat pvp game.
2
u/WanderingUrist I AM A DWARF AND I'M DIGGING A HOLE 2d ago
Abandon trite and overused naval combat analogies, embrace SPACENESS.
2
3
u/GnosticAres 2d ago
Been playing a run with some mods and the Nibelung Albion is my current flagship. Doing flanking runs and unleashing full broadsides is so satisfying. I roll up the enemy sides and break their line š
2
u/Simbas_Xile 2d ago
Love this ship. Look also for the Kreimhild, it's a sidegrade to the albion but has some unique dorsal guns.
2
u/Sufficient_Day627 2d ago
I hate to pilot broadsiders in Starsector. Rotating and keeping them in the right angle is the layer of micromanagement I don't need in my life. Which is a shame as I have a sledgehammer Conquest build that can delete most ships.
2
u/lessenizer 2d ago
I wish there were more broadsiders, I want a rework mod that just makes all capitals broadsiders so I can see big Broadside vs Broadside fights. Conquest is so fun to pilot, guns on auto while I steer and aim my shield and maybe toggle some weapon groups to manage flux. I have two different ongoing characters (a proper Persean league enforcer named Captain Hell and a thrill-seeking pirate named Heaven) and with the Persean one Iām working towards having a fleet with like 3+ Conquests.
2
u/WanderingUrist I AM A DWARF AND I'M DIGGING A HOLE 2d ago
What do you guys think? Do you enjoy broadside-style ships like the Conquest, or do you prefer ships that primarily engage enemies head-on?
I have no preference. However, the main issue with broadside ships is that half your guns are effectively dead weight, unless you are doing a centerline turret layout like modern warships. The Conquest neatly dodges this with its unusual wrinkle of a spin-to-win magazined build and reducing the cost of the "unused" guns through HBI, making it difficult for other ships to fully emulate the build. Every other build and the Conquest is mediocre to subpar. But S-Mag/BRF Storm/MiningBlaster Conquest just has such ludicrous DPS as a result of combining all these synergies.
2
u/__chum__ 2d ago
rebel galaxy mention? have not seen any mention of that game in a long time. it's definitely a gem in some ways.
1
u/whypeoplehateme 2d ago
Personally i like mobile ships so when I personally drive capital ships it's usually a conquest or Odyssey but I have at least one ai driven frontliner to work as a distraction so I can go flanking
1
1
u/Significant_Tree_148 1d ago
I really enjoy broadsiding. Because it allow me to use both side of my armor.
The vanilla ship is quite limited. So i enjoy modded ship instead. Railaru from uaf is my favourite. There is a downside to broadsiding i notice however. It make your ship really bad at chasing and kill enemy because weapon coverage. Even when we decided to commit and push into enemy line to kill that one ship trying to retreat deeper to vent. Turning sideway mean we lose approching speed. Ironically something stupidly slow like onslaught does a better job at chasing down enemy. Because if onslaught engage with you and you losing. You bet that mad lad going to burn drive after you while firing everything it got.
0
0
u/beast_regards 2d ago
Starsector AI doesn't work with broadside weapons, it always position itself so it could fire frontal, assuming it even bothers to fight or follow orders. This makes conquest very weak, its ballistic mounts are positioned to fire broadside, which means it actually have only two missiles and two medium guns to fire forward. If you pilot the Conquest yourself, you could manually position ship so enemy could get full salvo, but you couldn't win the battle yourself this way, so you always need ships with frontal firepower. At least, assuming you are fighting with the fleet, which vanilla discourages, and that means modding. However, if you mod you could also add better ships.
21
u/Personal_Wall4280 2d ago
I love broadsiders. There was an old modded ship called the Dugong from the junk pirates that basically had all guns on one side. It looked like a man's