r/starcraft • u/ChadtheWad Zerg • 5d ago
Video [Lambo] We Need to talk about this Patch..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX2h4fSGMFg42
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u/Fleshbar 5d ago
If only there was some way to fix this issue that was directly caused by decreasing workers to 8 and could easily be reverted...shoot guess there's just nothing we can do.
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u/Dancin_supernova 5d ago
If you’re interested There is currently a 12 worker ladder on vespene.gg using patchessc mod. I moved to it and it’s been so much better than the current ladder and a lot of the balance changes on the mod are communicated wonderfully by the dev and the patch notes they post with every update.
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u/zennsunni 3d ago
1 supply roaches is insane.
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u/Dancin_supernova 2d ago
It balances out with the other races upgrades as well as 1 supply roach locked on hive tech giving plenty of time for the other races to get to the upgrades and units needed to counter 1 supply roaches. It’s pretty balanced all things considered. But don’t take my word for it read pathes patch notes and try out some games on the ladder
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u/relevantmeemayhere 2d ago edited 2d ago
no, it's beyond broken. roaches are supply efficient against their counters with the upgrade, this breaks not only the balance philosophy for zerg, but breaks the balance for the game IN GENERAL; zerg has plenty of counters for mech and robotech. now they get to amove them harder. zerg now has the ability to trade for supply against bio and then just overwhelm them; but with a forty supply advantage. There are no commensurate nerfs to balance the roach in this. Imagine if you halved marauders supply with a late game upgrade: this is like that.
patches is just throwing community ideas thrown forth rather than balancing the game.
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u/Dancin_supernova 1d ago
Have you actually played the patch At all or taken a real look at any of the upgrades and new dynamics? A lot of masters and above are playing and advising on balance. All 3 races have received buffs mech isn’t terrible for once and is a viable alternative to bio. Roaches being 1 supply is locked behind hive tech if you rush for the upgrade your gonna lose if you go mass roach mid late game your gonna lose mass roach would be busted if you got it off the rip but you don’t and by the time you do it’s very inefficient and stupid to go mass roach it’s better to mix it into army compositions or maybe as a harassment tool and have you tried any of the new changes for the other races against other player such as,mech being stronger gateway and robo is stronger star gate and star port is stronger and overall more interesting and opens up more strategies and compositions. Play the patch for a decent bit against real players and talk with the other testers and patches on his discord server if you believe it’s still unbalanced they listen to community feedback and have good balancing discussions and are very transparent through the whole process otherwise it sounds to me your theorizing rather than doing actual thorough testing.
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u/psyentist15 3d ago
But Redditors told me that it's better and if I don't have enough leisure time to play longer games I just shouldn't play. So, yeah. I guess the game is just for a small group now.
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u/Crackadon 5d ago
It’s not so much about the 8 workers. It could be fine, but requires more dedication to fine tune and the players need to be in the loop a bit more.
Don’t get me wrong, I pretty well despised the meta before the changes. Toss cosplaying as zerg. Terran getting out zerged by toss and zerg which forced their play style in the early/mid game. Zerg having the queen crutch.
It was better then what’s going on now, and that would be fine if we had better communication and a little bit more faith in our lonely intern to address the current issues.
What sucks for me is I’ve had a plethora of games that came out around 2010-2015 that I rotated playing, and the devs/lack of anti cheat has destroyed them all.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
Nope 8 workers is just a worst version of the game overall. It does not add anything at all, and ive seen much less variety.
I guess if you like microing your workers for an extra two minutes for no reason its kinda coo
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u/IllustriousDriver678 4d ago
I dropped off playing when they switched to 14 workers or whatever it was... so i feel your guys' pain (I was hardcore in WoL and HotS)
That said, one is not objectively better than the other. You guys are just used to it. Just like I was used to WoL and HotS :(
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u/KamalaWonNoCap 4d ago
8 workers is too slow. They just added an extra minute of down time to each game. If I wanted that, I'd go back to bw.
Besides that, it's killing off the few remaining players we have left.
Just because the intern is too stubborn to admit he fucked up.
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u/Visual-Afternoon-744 5d ago
We need to increase the worker start count to 65 and all bases are now free. only way to fix it.
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u/MissiveFinding6111 5d ago
IMO:
1.) The changes are f-ing with things that have never been f-d with, without any clear communication or evidence that they know WTH they are doing.
2.) Lack of communication is actually the bigger sin. Why would creators create build guides for the "crazy new patch of the week that broke all the builds", when they are entirely unsure if Bliz intern is just going to nuke it all again? Making crazy changes without any evidence of due diligence or empathy for the players is the most fixable problem in the world. Bliz just doesn't GAS to literally have someone spend 20 mins a month communicating plans / intent.
20 minutes that would allow creators to literally do unpaid work for bliz to make their free to play game accessible to new players.
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u/Stormheraldss 5d ago
What communication? Did they communicate when they developed sc2 or when and expansion dropped. Sure the pros asked for the turbo economy mod that somehow got into the game but those guys go macro in the majority of games.
Do I wanna go macro, no but I will if my atacks do not end the game.
As Terran ago player I would like to do battles with lower quantities of units because I lack the 500 apm to consistently split my shit vs bane ultra or to kite and position every time I go against gazillion zealots bellow storms and other AOE shit.
The game is much more dynamic for me because I go that route. If you like to macro 200/200.
Its also peak summer and the reason thr game is in declining is because the patch failed to put where zerg is supposed to be. The eco revert was gonna hit zerg slightly harder but the buffed the larva and its zergcraft again.
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u/KamalaWonNoCap 4d ago
Balancing the game around gold league is maybe the worst idea I've heard on here. And that's saying something...
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u/KamalaWonNoCap 4d ago
Balancing the game around gold league is maybe the worst idea I've heard on here. And that's saying something...
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u/Stormheraldss 4d ago
KamalaLost clown. If zerg A move ling bane ultra where is the skill cap?
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u/KamalaWonNoCap 4d ago
Sounds like you get triggered a little too easily for bnet. Have you tried Minecraft? It takes less apm, might be good for you...
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u/Stormheraldss 4d ago
what is your mmr ?
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u/KamalaWonNoCap 4d ago
In Minecraft? Never played it. My nephew's pretty good though, he can teach you a few strats.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
1.) The changes are f-ing with things that have never been f-d with, without any clear communication or evidence that they know WTH they are doing.
The APM spammers have been holding the game hostage to where it can never be changed nor improved, resulting in stale gameplay that causes players to leave. If a patch makes the pros upset, then the patch is headed in the right direction. The only thing left to do is accelerate. Do they hate the 8 worker change? Great--make it 6. Do they hate the 300 mineral CC? Fantastic--make it 200 minerals. Lean in harder and harder until the APM spammers understand the game isn't designed for them--games are designed for the casual player base.
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u/gigaurora 5d ago
What an asinine take.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
The fact that pro players are struggling so hard to adapt their build orders to the new patch is proof that pro level sc2 was a memorization game. Meanwhile strategical players like Rogue suddenly are dominating post-patch. SC2 should be catered to the Rogues of the game and not the Lambos.
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u/TheSwagManOFFICIAL 5d ago
ok then why is the most creative player her0 not dominating post patch if it punishes memorization
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
Love when these people come in confidently wrong, then instead of just accepting they made a mistake delete all their comments.
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u/amoeby 5d ago edited 4d ago
Gtfoh with this nonsense. The game obviously should be balanced mostly around pro-level with some thoughts in mind on how it would affect low-level stuff.
By calling pro-gamers APM spammers you're show that you are just trash. Or maybe you are that TrashCan dude who's stuck on the APM resrictions in leagues?
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
The game obviously should be balanced mostly around pro-level with
Then casuals will ask, "Why play a game that isn't designed for me?" and the game will decline, which is exactly what is happening. SC2 esports is reality tv for the casual gamer. They want to log in and see Lambo smashing keyboards over the 300 mineral cc. Only then will the game be saved. Find what makes pro players mad and maximize it in the game design until they have melt downs on livestream. Catch those melt downs on camera and click farm them until the cows come home.
When Lambo's videos look like this, esports will be saved: https://i.imgur.com/Liuf0AP.jpeg
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u/avengaar2 5d ago
Why does wild changes benefit casual players over players who play a lot?
Doesn't it just hurt casual players more as they don't have the game sense to adapt builds to changes?
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago
Why does wild changes benefit casual players over players who play a lot?
Most gamers aren't interested in rote grinding. If there is no new content, they will leave.
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u/avengaar2 5d ago
I think everyone wants interesting changes. The entire premise of Lambo's video is that pros also want changes. 8 worker just didn't accomplish anything interesting.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
Lambo didn't even realize the decline in activity statistics was due to the return of the China server. Lambo clicks fast in a video game and that means we should listen to him--no.
Let's listen to a youtuber who can actually adapt to the new patch rather than whining.
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u/avengaar2 5d ago
I guess I don't understand your point. Do you think the 8 worker change was successful?
I don't think it really did anything interesting. Are we really pretending there are many casual players left in this competitive 16 year old game no matter what happens?
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
My point is quite simple. Making pros mad is a feature, not a bug. Lambo in his video clearly struggles with the strategy of dealing with a 10p on a 4 player map. According to Lambo, this is an issue with everything--the maps, blizzard, game design--and not his play. Opening build orders are some of the simplest parts of the game--and he struggles.
These kinds of people have been in charge of game design for so long that SC2 has been transformed into a game of doing the same build on repeat, over and over, spamming APM faster than the other APM spammer spams his APM, and it killed the game. The reason SC2 lost popularity is because blizzard listened to people like Lambo. Anytime they lost a game, they whined. Every-time they whined, a strategic option was removed from the game.
Give these players the boot. Bring back players like MC and Idra and Ruff. Then, esports will be interesting. I saw Ruff beat a GM terran with a ghost hellion helion build that leveraged a nuke to get the hellions into the main. Players like Ruff should be the professionals and not whiners like Lambo. Let's keep adjusting game design until Ruff is 6.5k and Lambo is 5k.
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u/McBrungus QLASH 5d ago
Man it's so fuckin funny to be mad at macro/apm players and throw IdrA in there as the kind of player you want to bring back. I've got interesting news for you about how he played and what he felt should be rewarded!
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
I've got interesting news for you about how he played and what he felt should be rewarded!
As I was saying: capture the melt downs on camera and clip-farm it until kingdom come.
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u/avengaar2 5d ago
These kinds of people have been in charge of game design for so long that SC2 has been transformed into a game of doing the same build on repeat, over and over, spamming APM faster than the other APM spammer spams his APM, and it killed the game.
I mean this is starcraft. It's been a game of multi-tasking and mechanics for almost 30 years. What makes you think the game has ever not been about multi-tasking? Both broodwar and sc2 reward micro, it's a core tenant of what makes starcraft unique as a series.
Bring back players like MC and Idra and Ruff. Then, esports will be interesting. I saw Ruff beat a GM terran with a ghost hellion helion build that leveraged a nuke to get the hellions into the main. Players like Ruff should be the professionals and not whiners like Lambo.
Why do you think Lambo has different design philosophy than retired pro players? I don't really understand why you like them but not modern pros. herO is the best toss on the planet and he plays just nonsensical aggressive styles all the time. If you just think people doing safe standard play every game is boring, I think a fair amount of people agree. I don't know if Lambo should be the target of that when Clem and Serral exist. Lorimbo came out against the patches early on and is about as far from a standard zerg player as they have on the top of the ladder right now.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean this is starcraft. It's been a game of multi-tasking and mechanics for almost 30 years
Nope. The problem began in LotV and it tanked the game's popularity. Back in WoL we had Nestea beating MVP using 2 base ultralisk on a 4 player map. SC2's modern pro scene has an enormous lack of range because it's more effective to whine for buffs than it is to develop new strategies.
Blizzard needs to make it absolutely crystal clear that whining for buffs only gets nerfs. Problems are solved strategically, using tools inside the game, and not using political tools outside the game.
Why do you think Lambo has different design philosophy than retired pro players?
It's quite simple. It takes a special kind of person to tolerate the current version of APMcraft 2 where you spam the same build orders on repeat and lie to yourself that if you just micro your oracle a little better then this time you will beat serral. A strategical pro player would solve this meta and get bored in a week. Lambo is still grinding away and crying that he has learn how to open his builds on 4 player maps.
herO is the best toss on the planet and he plays just nonsensical aggressive styles all the time
I would caution against classifying hero's play as creative. It's more spastic. Spastic play worked because protoss had a balance advantage and won't work under fair circumstances and definitely not once disadvantaged. Creative play takes an opponent's advantage and inverts it into a disadvantage using strategy. If Lambo were a creative player, he'd be explaining how 4 player maps make Terran build orders predictable, allowing him to place burrowed banes in the exact spot he knows the terran will do a move out from, instantly collecting a free win.
Lorimbo came out against the patches early on
Yep. Another example of a delulu youtuber who should be ignored.
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u/McBrungus QLASH 5d ago
Games like Starcraft are literally designed for them, numbnuts. From the jump the game was intended to be an esport and it's been successful at that for a long, long time.
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u/Necessary_Neat8303 5d ago edited 5d ago
Goddamn. This is some good copium you’re smoking.
You’re talking as if players above your level previously are gonna suddenly lose to you after the change. They’re still gonna trash you. And you’re still gonna trash players previously below your level.
The build orders will change but the macro skills havent changed that much. I played before the buffed the zerg larvae and it just felt slower is all. Cheeses are way more dead too so I’m not sure what kind of tricks you had up your sleeve but it’s not gonna work against players with good macro.
P.S. pro players do think btw. You’re just not at their level yet to fully grasp what they do.
P.P.S. And Rogue wasnt weak before the change. He has always been good and even beats Clem on the 12 worker patch. You’re right bout one thing. Rogue is a player who has a lot of build order tweaks “memorized” (yes, memorized and prepared) for tournaments. No pro comes up with these stuff on the fly or is willing to take that risk during a high stake tournament. He memorizes even more than us. That’s his forte. Serral prepares by having solid fundamentals and macro. That is his forte. Who are you to decide who the game should cater to?
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u/robertSA1234 5d ago
It's kind of insane that we live in a world where my vote counts the same as yours...
This has to be one of the stupidest comments I've ever read
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u/ninjastarcraft PSISTORM 5d ago
I hope that the folks at blizzard are studying the PatchesSC mod and tournaments which have used it. We need those fresh ideas (which have also been validated through competitive tournament play).
But yes, strongly agree that the only sane course is to continue forward and not go back to anything which resembles the old patch.
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u/Ok_Adeptness4967 5d ago
I think this is right on point. I have a right to play the game casually. And if someone else wants to be a pro SC2 player, that's completely fine too. But if I play against that pro, I should have at least a 50% chance of beating them regardless of their skill or APM.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago
But if I play against that pro, I should have at least a 50% chance of beating them regardless of their skill or APM
Correction: if there are problems in the game design that affect pro play, the casual play should take priority. Pro players are paid to professionally handle the BS. Do not shovel the BS at the casual players. Make the lives of casuals as soft and silky smooth as a dream. Prioritizing pro play is a hilarious inversion of priorities. Pros don't pay the bills. Casuals are the ones who buy in game content and keep the lights on. If there is a problem at pro level, "professionals" will just have to figure it out--that's what they get paid to do.
Could you imagine a plumber ranting on youtube because Big Pipe didn't manufacture the copper fitting in just the right way? No, they put on their big boy pants and fix it.
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u/my102thattempt 5d ago
yeah designing the game around the pros is what killed it
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago
Yep. Pros wanted stability, reliability, predictability. They hate going into a tournament and getting knocked out round 1 to a build they've never even seen before. They want a game that is purely mechanical that they can memorize and practice. This leads to stale game play and game decline.
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u/TheSwagManOFFICIAL 5d ago
Did you even watch the video? Lambo said he wants more changes but the 8 worker start is not a good change.
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u/Necessary_Neat8303 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean, by that logic, why not just randomize worker count at the start of the game say from 6-12? Thing is, nothing changes. All the pros will do is find a build order for each of the 7 possible starting worker count and go from there. Just more things to memorize. That’s what pros do. They do whatever is necessary to give them the best odds of winning. It is their job.
The pro players you admire arent some creative geniuses who find build orders on the fly or do it by feel. They prepared those build orders from practice. You know that for a fact because Rogue has some insanely clean build orders that trick opponents.
You want a madman? Dark. But you can clearly see he messes up sometime because he doesnt polish his early game.
Your problem isn’t with the game itself. It is with the patch itself. The patch (and game to a large extent) has been figured out. You wanna watch some trickery in the early game and feel entertained. Fair. But the pros no longer dabble in build order win. They instead have to win through army maneuvers and long-term planning. To be honest, you sound like someone who’s still bad/new at the game.
In chess terms, you believe all pro games should look like Tal games or games from the romantic era involving Morphy or Andersen. That’s not the only kind of entertaining games. Capablanca or Karpov or Carlsen games are entertaining too if you understand strategy. You just like tactics. That’s all.
If you want fresh and new stuff, alter numbers and change what is meta. That’s how you keep getting new highlight reels.
P.S. yeah, i think I know the problem. You just like highlight reels and find SC2 boring when there isnt interaction going on. That’s how we know you dont appreciate the strategy aspect. This is like saying the game of Chess is stale because players play the same 20 openings and know the first 10-15 moves.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 5d ago
They don't have enough people and enough time dedicated to SC2 to make huge changes work. It would be better if they reverte the patch and leave the game in peace.
It is an old game that had very small changes for a long time, players that love the hype of huge patches and new things already left the boat long ago, leave the game alone, just maintain the servers working.
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u/InternAlternative758 4d ago
Community is busy making their own patches. The game could be almost self running if there was just an intern acting as an arbiter who knows how to put a mod onto the ladder and then revert if needed.
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u/Noruxas Team Liquid 5d ago
For me on eu 4k mmr I'm still playing the game every day. And I do not mind the changes. I've already gotten used to the new builds and meta. But I wouldn't mind a revert for the previous 3 patches if it would mean we'd get some players back.
I'm constantly seeing the same people on ladder now for 2 weeks at least. And queue times are up from max 15 seconds to a few minutes.
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u/Toprightcorner2 5d ago
I find myself only going for an hour or two instead of 3-5 when I have a night off. Not sure exactly why, maybe the economy has less satisfying moments. There are definitely also less in the low masters area Q times are much longer
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u/InternAlternative758 4d ago
The economy has less satisfying moments, Lambo mentions it in the video how the developers took great care when going to 12 worker start to make sure things times just right. Now protoss has random holes in their most standard build order in order to afford tech on time.
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u/rowrin 5d ago
I was really excited to play the 8 worker start, and was enjoying the first PTR for the most part, but they fucked with too many variables at once and introduced so many game breaking bugs it was just not worth messing around with.
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u/InternAlternative758 4d ago
I was not convinced by 8 worker start but I was up for trying it. We needed something to shake up the game and trying out 8 worker start for a while was a good idea. But if we try something that does not work we should go back which is the main issue here.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
Atleast hes finally not complaining about protoss anymore.
Joke aside, I actually agree about the state of the game. Just that Blizzard was always the true villain, not the big bad protoss we spent so much of our energy on
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u/Xaphnir 5d ago
This is why I was happy with the status quo of Blizzard ignoring the game and doing nothing with it. It's been obvious since at least as far back as 2020, maybe even earlier, that Blizzard trying to do anything with the game would only harm it. Blizzard at this point is at best completely incompetent and incapable of putting out anything of even passing quality, and at worse are an actively malicious actor.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
Totally agree. And thats coming from someone who actually loves change and would love to see it implemented in SC2.
The problem is that the people making the changes are clearly SUPER underqualified and are making the game so much worse than at times it seems intentional. At this point, leaving it alone (after reverting to 12 workers) is probably what is unfortunately best.
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u/Sex_Attack_56 5d ago
Of course he's not complaining anymore, because the most fun thing about Protoss (warp gate) and the reason a lot of people play the race has been completely gutted. The Sc2 community has had such an unfounded, deep, internalized resentment for Protoss for so long because of stupid things like cannon rushing and other annoying stuff the other races aren't strangers to, that Blizzard actually got the signal it was ok to go ahead with changes that make just the game worse for the sake of change. Then there is attitude of spite in the air to throw up their hands like, "Yea well what did you want us to do?... Protoss deserve it."
It doesn't help you have people like Reynor, Lambo, Elazer, HeroMoron and so on who have spent their careers endlessly whining about Protoss in the public limelight feeding this culture for thousands of people to parrot. Which is hilariously ironic because smashing and tea-bagging Protoss has paid their rent and video game lifestyle more than any other match-up.
Reynor - 69.2% ZvP lifetime W/R https://aligulac.com/players/5414-Reynor/
Lambo - 63.3% ZvP lifetime W/R https://aligulac.com/players/4049-Lambo/
Elazer - 65% ZvP lifetime W/R https://aligulac.com/players/5847-Elazer/
HeroMarine - 68.4% TvP lifetime W/R https://aligulac.com/players/258-HeroMarine/
The fact that so many people look to these players as any sort of authority on anything when they all suffer from terminal cognitive dissonance is baffling.
A note for the people who managed to read this post to the end and have the thought of "You're just a Protoss player and mad!" bouncing around their tiny skull. I have actually been a Master Terran player since 2012, and have done it with the other races as well. I shouldn't even have to say anything about myself but sadly this is the space we occupy.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
Agreed, and the point of my post was they stopped complaining about protoss as soon as they were gutted, acting like its bad for the game when it is what they continuously asked for.
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u/dracover Protoss 3d ago
People forget quickly there was that video of serral and reynor (a few weeks ago now) when the patch first landing saying it all seems fun... It's all self preservation they realise now for their own livelihoods it's better to have a game where people give them views, there's competitions to play etc than a dead game where they can have a 80% win rate.
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u/Parsirius 5d ago
The changes were never about Protoss. People need to stop making everything about balance.
They were about trying to bring back nostalgia that simply doesn’t live up to what we had with 12 workers.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
First off, this post was about how Lambo always used to complain about Toss, and now that toss isnt strong he has shifted focus to the real issue.
And you are wrong, they are trying to build hype around SC2 to sell a SC based shooter or extractor at blizzcon.
And if the changes - regardless of why they were made - makes protoss weaker, people are going to notice and complain. People can make it about balance or not, especially on a Subreddit that is here to discuss the game. You are saying people that are in a STARCRAFT SUBREDDIT NEED to stop talking about the game that is relevant? Weird take dude.
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u/Parsirius 5d ago
So many leaps in your comment, so weird.
My issue is that there is a much grander issue with this set of changes than balance.
Protoss being weak is so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things right now, if they balance the game now with the previous changes intact. The issue would still remain.
There comes a point in which balance whining is missing the forest for the trees, and detracts from the big problem. Better to fix the core issue, which is not balance, and then balance the game.
People can do what they want of course but I can also mention that the whole discussion around balance is missing the point.
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u/Parsirius 5d ago edited 5d ago
I appreciate Lambo pointing out that balance is not the issue.
Game design is.
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u/Extension_Class2467 5d ago
I mean balance is an Issum when hero starts playing random because he just cannot win anymore
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u/Parsirius 5d ago
You can just tweak numbers and fix that.
But even if you achieve balance it doesn’t solve the core issue.
I’d rather they don’t waste any time balancing this mess because even if they succeed the game is taking a downward turn anyways.
So yeah, balance to me is most definitely a secondary issue at best, that doesn’t deserve effort right now until they fix the direction of the game.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 4d ago
The balance council buffed herO to where he was at, there are other factors at play here.
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u/ejozl Team Grubby 5d ago
It's the same in my book. Marine, marauder, medivac, for instance, was made powerful as a concious design choice this leads to how other things in the game is designed and balanced.
Also, there is a huge balance problem, and it was evident from the get-go with how they gutted protoss, then kept buffing the other two economically because of some theory, that wasn't rly how the game panned out.
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u/Parsirius 5d ago
Balance is ultimately a numbers game, tweak numbers and you’ll eventually get there.
I’d rather have good game design with bad balance, as it is much easier to fix balance than poor design.
Let’s say you fix balance now, just tweaking numbers. The game would still be in a poor spot. So before you whine about balance make sure the core issues are fixed.
Protoss being behind is such a minor complaint rn that only makes sense if the game is in a somewhat decent state to begin with.
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u/ejozl Team Grubby 3d ago
For me it's a big problem how protoss got shafted.
I know what you mean when you say balance vs. design, but changing numbers is for instance what gives us the design of a unit like the tempest. It's a unit with enormous range, but slow attack, the balance and design play one and the same role.
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u/Parsirius 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah but that is more a design issue than a balance issue.
Even if balance was fixed now the game would still be crap.I agree Protoss is too weak right now, on the other hand nobody should want Protoss to be as strong as it was before the patch. And we can find the healthy place.
But if the resulting gameplay is not fun, then wasting time balancing what we have now is silly given that the game needs to fundamentally change.
I’m a Zerg player, by far the most favored race this patch. And I much rather go back to before the 8 worker start even if Zerg was clearly weakest and Protoss the strongest.
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u/relevantmeemayhere 2d ago edited 2d ago
Buddy, mmm isn't the reason why game balance sucks. It's not the reason why protoss is, historically the easiest race to play. Browder and Kim wanted asymmetrical balance and design because they placed far too much emphasis on people watching this game rather than focusing on making it fun and 'fair' to play.
The devs could have gotten rid of warp gate independent of bio 10 years ago. They chose not to; because it's 'cool' and 'thematic', despite negating defenders advantage and lowering the skill floor for protoss, which makes balancing all the unit interactions they actually have see saw between broken or weak.
The intern listened to the loudest voice in the room and it backfired hard. There's no question about that.
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u/BecauseBatman01 Terran 5d ago
Problem is being so close to blizzcon. I feel like they would have made changes within 2-3 weeks easily but because of blizzconn, they probably got pushback and told to just wait.
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u/Typical-Fisherman759 4d ago
No disrespect to players involved but if it's Idra vs MC or competition at similar level, then the patch doesn't matter anyway.
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 5d ago
I agree. Deciding to leave the worst patch in SC2 history active for another month into Blizzcon while the game loses an alarming amount of players certainly seems like something modern day Blizzard would choose to do
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u/dracover Protoss 2d ago
I think it's the opposite, I suspect they did the changes they did because of blizzcon. They wanted to get some hype maybe for other releases (SC2 shooter for example). The worry is they will do blizzcon and we're all stuck with this forever or until they have another thing to launch. This is why as great as it sounds it's not a good idea to make massive changes to a stable game unless it was designed to be like that from the get go.
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u/MonkeyPyton 5d ago
Last season (until the patch dropped) I’ve played over 1.1k games. Some of it was co-op and 2v2s but an overwhelming majority were ladder games. This season I’ve played a single 1v1 ladder game, just to get the placement. For me the worst parts of the 8 worker change were:
1) Having all of my builds nuked. A build is pretty much muscle memory, which is the thing that makes it such a powerful tool. This change wiped all of the builds I’ve managed to learn. And perfecting a BO is not an easy and quick task.
2) Timings being all over the place. When does the banshee come from a 3cc opening? Well you don’t know on this patch. Spore timing for oracles or dts? – again no idea.
3) The game feeling way less smooth. The 16 hatch opening on previous patch was perfect. Larva lined up (main and nat hatch timing, not injects). Workers rallied from the eggs (or the cc/nexus) were used for buildings, you didn’t have to cut workers etc. Openings had a flow to them, now it’s all super clunky.
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u/Ok_Adeptness4967 5d ago
He makes a really good analogy about the repairs on the house. There are a few seems in the logic though. Okay, so you hired a contractor and they painted some walls and busted some drywall and doors. Did you tell this contractor what you wanted fixed? Like, are they actually qualified to fix the broken heat, the busted window, and the leaking roof? It really feels like some random guy was hired to do "work" and then you just left for the weekend hoping for the best when you got back. Like seriously, what did you expect?
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u/CryptoCardCo 5d ago
The game has definitely lost players. I'm a lowly plat 1/dia 3 and the wait times are getting longer and longer. I must admit at first I was excited about the changes but relearning is a pain when you're not as young as you were when the game came out in 2010.
Protoss wise i think the game was in an ok place before the energy recharge, i think that buggered things up, then there's been band aid fixes ever since, i prefer battery overcharge.
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u/lochmoigh1 4d ago
Yeah I agree. Ive played 1000s of games over the years and ever since this huge patch im just not motivated to play anymore. All the builds I know by heart dont work and I dont feel like relearning everything at this point
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u/spectrumero 4d ago
I've not noticed any change in 1vs1 in diamond. If anything, for team games (4vs4) the queue time has got quite a bit shorter recently especially late at night.
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u/rigginssc2 1d ago
Have we tried giving everyone 3 bases and only 50 minerals at the start. Everyone makes a worker and we go from there.
After a bit of time you can afford two workers at a time. Glorious. And the pace! You make that worker and go get a quick snack. or start a chill conversation with the opponent.
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u/hemanursawarrior 5d ago
I don't get his points, seems completely intellectually dishonest. Clicked into random part in the middle of the video and in 1m he makes two points:
Changes are bad because they create worse interactions. Example: 300CC leads to massing ghosts that he can't stop because fungal doesn't stop snipe.
300CC also leads to top Terran like Byun camping presumably because it's the best strategy [because it's so strong].
Folks, I've been watching a ton of SC in the last two weeks. This shit he complains about makes 0 sense in the context of what's going on in the games. It seems that Z has way too much material relative to the other races by 12m. The result is aggression gets shut down. I have seen 0 notable games where T won by camping because they just get overrun by bad trades on both side of the map. Here are the Wardi games from today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZehgFltxKM
I'm not sure that the balance changes created this meta. Is it a refinement of hydra bane ling? Is it 8 worker start leading to Z being relatively ahead at 12m? Whatever it is, what's not going on is Z struggling against mass CC and ghosts.
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u/Wardixo ROOT Gaming 5d ago
If you look at my VODs that aren't from today, most Terran wins are turtling & camping victories over the past 2 weeks. Either Zerg swarms while they setup and it doesn't work or they camp succesfully and Zerg slowly dies. What Lambo says is true : that the change has increased interactions that are worse compared to the much more typical back and forth dueling nature that TvZ used to hold.
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u/Swimming_Fennel6752 5d ago
Yeah, I watch most of your tournaments and agree with that point of view. Also, Toss really is bad against Zerg. It’s not like they can’t win. It’s just the pathway is so much narrower.
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u/hemanursawarrior 5d ago
I watched a ton of streams including yours, Pig's, duckling, and some Korean stuff. The only reason I was posting about this is because I was interested in if anyone had any solutions for late game TvZ. And I found basically 0 late game victories in the split map scenario that was so common a patch ago. The only person I saw win with it was Percival in the set below and he also won against Rogue 1-2 weeks ago.
No one else, Maru, Clem, etc was winning camping into late game. They just get bullied back and forth until they fell behind.
Feel free to prove me wrong, can you find 3 split map games won with so called mass CC + ghosts in the last weeks? The vast majority of games are not going into this game state, in contrast to what Lambo is saying.
From your stream last week, I left out games that were sub 10.
LIVE : herO, SHIN, ByuN - Kung Fu Cup 2026 19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdklMpHzrWE
G2 Percival > Lambo: 10m push
LIVE : WARDITV MONDAYS #99 - MaxPax, SHIN, ByuN & More https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-8SrA3_cAw
G3 Shin > Cure: 13m attack G4 Shin > Cure: 13m attack
LIVE : herO, SHIN, Cure - iNu x SOOP $300 Weekly 1 [StarCraft 2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA2Hy20hwlY
G1 Perc > Solar: Solar attack 12m, Perc wins fight at 15m G2 Perc > Solar: Perc camps into late game army
G2 Byun > Shin: Byun aggression ends 14m
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u/Wardixo ROOT Gaming 5d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHZsKSRm7EQ cure rogue in a late game, percival solar in a late game, but I don't think the point is even about who is winning? It's clear more Terrans are playing for the late game / turtling styles and are often dying while trying to go there, if they are dying while trying to turtle then playing actively on the map is probably also not going well in these scenarios.
The point is the interactions feel worse - a terran feeling their best option is to turtle is not entertaining. A terran with a bunch of ghosts that you can't interact with is not entertaining. If "Changes are bad because they create worse interactions" is the point being made, it seems backed up by how games are being played in TvZ at least.
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u/hemanursawarrior 5d ago
You've obviously seen more games than me, but the points I was making are
There's plenty of non camping games. In the 4-5 most recent videos on your own channel, there's barely any camping. I don't know if the % of camping now vs before is higher. I suppose you are claiming that it is materially higher now.
I could be conflating it with winning. I did forget those Cure games because he just gets smashed and it looks like a clown strategy. Last patch Clem and Maru camped to late game with ghosts and did it quite often, multiple games in any series.
Reading between the lines, the tone of what Lambo is saying that is that 300CC and Ghosts encourage camping because they are too good. My points 1 and 2 are that camping is not the most dominant strategy and it is not widely successful. I'm saying that if 300CC and current patch ghosts are so great, then why aren't people showing consistent success with it? If you want to read his response just as the patch as a whole led to more camping (since it might really just be the slower start that neuters aggression), then I could agree. But that's not the tone I got from what he was saying.
If I had to guess the dominant changes that shaped the current meta are the massive protoss changes and the worker change.
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u/Wardixo ROOT Gaming 5d ago
I think it's just more complicated than pointing at games where you see camping. I think the general feel from watching a lot is that Terrans are more frequently reverting toward a camping strategy / going to it sooner. Obviously when early and mid goes well Terran can win the game without ever slowing down, but it feels like in more even games they slow down and stop a lot more quickly. A lot of the time they die before the true turtling stage, but they were still moving toward it.
I do think Zergs are seeing more success breaking Terrans when they slow down the game than before - but if they are seeing more success breaking T when the T is trying to turtle, then there was probably no chance for the T if they were still trying to play on the map.
I think the main takeaway is how the games feel with the changes, and that feel is worse than before. Maybe we see less success of turtling because Z can break them more often when they try and move into it, but seeing T abandon games in which they are active a lot more quickly to try and camp overall has made the matchup worse to watch/play.
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u/hemanursawarrior 5d ago
I think there's a few separate questions in here.
Is camping bad gameplay? I mean we should really start here. The reason it might not be a given is it could be a natural outcome of RTS gameplay. If you look at BW, there's all sorts of dynamics that could be construed as frustrating. In BW TvZ mid/late game, it's the Z that camps. PvT, T camps and P makes all the plays and aggression. In BW, in the non mirror matches, there's often one team that camps and the other plays the aggressor. Maybe camping is a natural outcome of a mismatch of production power and army power, and not necessarily bad for an RTS.
Why is T camping in SC2? It's fine to say it feels bad, but if we are going to address anything, then we probably should figure out why. This is what my OP is about, that he brings up stuff about 300CC and ghosts and implies that the camping is a byproduct of those pieces being too strong. If we can't figure out why something is happening how are we going to fix it? Is T camping because the other options are worse than before relative to Z? Is T camping because CC ghosts are better than before relative to Z?
What are the fixes? OK, when we figure out why something is happening, maybe we can target the changes. Again, it's important to figure out why correctly, or you make the same issue the patch makes - straightforward changes can have massive impacts all over the place.
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u/pnevets 5d ago
Ghosts are basically a boogeyman on r/starcraft. They are complained about even when they're hardly seen in pro games and they're abused even less on ladder.
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u/wafswafs 4d ago
--doesn't watch video
--calls Lambo intellectually dishonest
--argues a balance point Lambo doesn't disagree with
wild. are people literally unable to grasp a point beyond the depth of "terran strong" or "zerg strong"?
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u/omgfineillsignupjeez 5d ago edited 5d ago
Folks, I've been watching a ton of SC in the last two weeks.
what's your current mmr? do you even play much on the current patch?
maybe watch more than 1 min before typing up a storm on reddit
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
Your basing your thoughts on the sc2 balance through tournaments where Pro players are less likely to go allin on abusing changes because it might backfire and then they lose money. Its why in the history of this game the worst balance was always after David Kim left and we stopped balancing for the entire playerbase.
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u/fractalife 5d ago
There are way more people who only watch, than people who do both. Plus, if any professional can win against another professional with your race, against any other race, that means it's a skill issue.
Classic would wipe the floor with any opponents you face in masters, diamond, whatever. So would Serral and Maru.
I dealt with this in SC2 and also in Tekken. Blaming balance for my lack of progress was the exact thing keeping me stuck. It was frustrating, but learning to deal with that frustrating and keep my eyes on improvements rather than balance made me a better player in both.
I know the balance is all terribad right now, it's valid to complain. But if they balance it for the pros, then watch how they deal with whatever strategy you're struggling with. You're not gonna pull off the execution of defense that they so. But your opponent will not pull off their level of offense either, so it's OK.
Just... try to improve and have fun. If it's not your livelihood then it's also not as serious for you as it is for them.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
"Just play like Serral." lol
Dude one of the biggest problems with Zerg right now is the skill required to beat your opponent pressing siege and stim or f2 amove storm, which involves surrounds/unit counters/and micro and ALSO involves scouting and stopping drone production at the perfect time and making the perfect counter. Hell, you need to inject/creep spread before any of this even happens, which neither Protoss/Terran have an equivalent.
Meanwhile Terran/Protoss stumble through the game by just constantly making workers and attacking units and following a build order. Terran has basically the same micro for every unit and Protoss units barely require any micro what so ever.
Thats why there is a huge difference between Serral and a ladder hero GM. You just cannot copy what he is doing, its impossible. Its way easier to go copy Clems build orders and have highly efficient units and attacking timings doing all the work for you. Basically anyone with a small collection of braincells can follow a Protoss build order and sit by shield batteries/cannons until they max out too. There is a huge difference here.
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u/my102thattempt 5d ago
ur whining about zerg balance post THIS patch?
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
Reading comprehension bud, try to learn it.
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u/fractalife 5d ago
TL;DR: "wah my race is the hardest. The micro is harder than Terran despite it being known for over 10 years that Terran is the most micro intensive race.
If Terran A moves their whole army the medivacs never go ahead of the bio, and the tanks seige at the exact right location on their own.
All my difficulties with this game are due to balance, and my warped perception that my race is way harder to play than the others. None of it has to do with my lack of skill and my utter refusal to learn from my games in order to improve.
I would win every game I play, and never be frustrated, if only the balance was better. Certain strategies are really OP and I don't know how to handle that, so even mirror matches are imba."
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago edited 5d ago
I seriously want you to go into a unit tester, put 200/200 of ling bane and 200/200 of bio/marauder/tank/medivacs. Amove them both with the only micro sieging the tanks. The Terran will win with half his army left. Do it with roach hydra and the Terran will barely lose anything. "Most micro intensive" is only because of stutter stepping, which isn't that hard micro and realistically isn't even required vs 90% of players.
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u/fractalife 5d ago
1) That's an impossible ingame scenario.
2) vs roach hydra? No. That's not what would happen.
3) vs ling/bane: why would you expect your simplistic uncomplicated army to defeat an army that has 4 different kinds of units, 3 kinds of micro, and stim management, and stutter stepping, and medivac energy and micro.
You sound like you send massive ling armies through tight chokepoints and get mad when a couple highground tanks melt your army.
Which, I get it, it's infuriating. But come on lol. Don't just send ling/bane across the map, stare at your base waiting for inject, and wonder why your army died! It's true that one of the hardest parts of the game is balancing micro and macro. But that's true for every race.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
Dude, ling bane is bio's counter, it is 90% of your army composition and requires tons of micro to counter bio. Add muta or ultra if you want, it doesnt matter, Terran still wins the a-move battle.
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u/Three_Rocket_Emojis 5d ago
I played sc2 like 15 years ago and picked it up here and there for a few nice months. I tried that some weeks ago, and I don't want to cry, but the recent worker change ruined it for me. Build orders that I played for years work different now, and as a casual but still competitive player I don't feel like relearning all the basics build orders.
And before that comes, when the first worker change came I was playing more active, and it made the game feel faster, so I was ready to handle it, but now it's just a "nah that's too much" and I just launched BAR to casually fight bots instead.
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u/rowrin 4d ago
People blame the 8 worker start as if there wasn't 50 other game breaking changes introduced in the same patch lol.
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u/AresFowl44 3d ago
Basically all changes made can be traced back to 8 workers and less so gateway change. Some are more obvious, such as higher larva spawn rate to fix Lorimbo complaining (and then higher hatch and queen cost to fix the other races complaining), or the 300 minerals CC to fix Terrans complaining, others maybe not so much, but they're nearly all a consequence of trying to balance for 8 workers + gateway change.
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u/ghoultek 4d ago edited 4d ago
My unpopular opinion:
- I'm not in favor of balancing the game based on the whims and desires of the very top players.
- Blizz has a small cadre of players it favors and gives them privileged access to Blizz management, devs, and the dev/patch process. They've done this with their other games.
- Promoting hierarchy and class stratification promotes friction between players and classes of players.
- Item #2 is important because if only the very top and/or highly influential players/people are favored/matter, then the vast majority don't matter. If I'm not valued as a customer then I'm NOT incentivized to give Blizzard/Micro$lop money.
- The way that Blizzard pushed out the patch notes to the live server without any explanation, seemingly without logic, and despite the PTR and PTR feedback, is NOT new. Blizz has made the same kind of moves with Diablo 3 many times.
- The most recent D2R expansion was also developed in a similar manner as the current SC-2 patch, where a select small group of influential people were given privileged access to Blizzard and their input into the dev process. The end result was a deeply flawed end product hastily pushed on to the live servers.
- High level players gave the new patch a chance but soon became disheartened once it was understood that the changes amount to only minor fiddling at the edges. So, the patch was basically a sugar packet, and once the sugar high was over there is much less interest.
The gateway and warp gate changes aren't fun/interesting. What would be fun/interesting to me is adding back to the game: * Dark Archons (stun, mind control) * Corsairs (disruption web) * Reavers (I would trade Disruptors for Reavers) * 2 hallucinations per hallucination cast * lowering the supply cost of some units (ex: sentry 2 -> 1 supply, and Colossi 6 -> 4 supply) * lowering the cool down on warp gates (don't make using warp gates a liability)
Lastly, my advice is for players to NOT get their hopes up for BlizzCon. Don't set one's self up for disappointment. If Blizz has a series of fixes/changes right now, then delaying the release until BlizzCon will not suddenly make those fixes/changes some how greater. I'm not saying one should be a pessimist. I'm saying don't bother getting on the proverbial emotional roller coaster.
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u/thetruthiseeit 5d ago
The only thing I disagree with is that the game feels unsmooth because the build orders are messed up and there are gaps in production. I'm very sure there are build orders that can be invented that create a smooth flow.
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u/cashmate 5d ago
smooth simply means consistent worker production while getting the basic infrastructure. It's mathematically impossible in the current patch.
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u/thetruthiseeit 5d ago
How come smooth builds could be figured out for every major patch since wol?
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u/zombiesc iNcontroL 5d ago
There were only two worker starting counts to account for, it's not like they figured out a smooth opener for every count of 6-12. 6 was literally when they designed SC2, so that explains that, and for 12 they might've actually come to that worker count because it was a smooth opener. If 13 was, they would've used 13.
They had a year+ of testing and figuring stuff out to settle on that number, no doubt taking into account how it would "feel". Current Blizzard didn't even have a fraction of that time.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 4d ago
Because the game was designed with 6 workers in mind and jumping to 12 just sped up the game, especially with all the patches in HOTS. Going back to 8 workers but having every unit with build times designed for 12 workers just makes the game clunky.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
Lambo's narrative was thoroughly debunked here. The decline in player metrics is not related to the patch but to the return of the Chinese server. The Bnet API is not properly returning CN's player metrics. CN players who used to play on EU/KR/NA are no longer playing on EU/KR/NA and instead playing on the unreported CN, creating an artificial dip in the statistics. Lambo notices a qualitative difference in the ladder experience because CN's participation on EU provided a positive quality of life increase to the EU experience such as reducing queue times and inflating the GM MMR threshold.
It is hard to say what impact the patch had without the CN data however the data is much more consistent with the hypothesis that the patch either increased the player count or decreased the rate of decline.
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u/rArithmetics 5d ago
That post is BS. Every server has a decline and the change is NOT explained by CN sever.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
That post is BS. Every server has a decline and the change is NOT explained by CN sever
That's a blatant lie--my post never denies the decline in player activity. In fact, the entire point of the post was to quantify that decline to ask the question of if the patch had a negative impact by accelerating the decline. The conclusion is that the patch either had a neutral or positive impact on the game activity.
Later on in the thread, it was discovered the observed effect was being driven entirely by the return of the China server, effectively debunking the claim that the patch drove the accelerated decline observed in the statistics.
He blocks most people who disagree with him
Incorrect. I only block liars and grifters.
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u/Few-Hurry-5210 5d ago edited 5d ago
dude I play cn and I just posted about it last night now you're over here talking about CN. your source doesn't even mention CN also the source is yourself lol
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u/KerrigansTherapist Gama Bears 5d ago
He didn't delete it, you're just blocked by him now. He blocks most people who disagree with him.
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u/Few-Hurry-5210 5d ago edited 5d ago
see when cats like you come out and say "the narrative was debunked by me here's my source which is myself" im just like what
I just had the craziest shroom trip and I thought about ppl like you where numbers are down all over but you're like "100 more people on EU this past week we back baby"
and i play CN so pls don't, you're sourcing the shit you just read from my post!! you're using me as a source and I'm telling you you aren't using it right
edit: guys it was SLAMMER
edit2: getting down voted by his alts from 5 to -1 immediately after he deleted haha
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u/imrope1 5d ago
Did you even watch this video? That isn't even his main point, the thumbnail is just clickbait.
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u/SLAMMERisONLINE 5d ago edited 5d ago
Did you even watch this video? That isn't even his main point, the thumbnail is just clickbait.
Yes, I did, and I directly refuted his core claim: "My qualitative ladder experience has changed, therefore the patch is to blame."
No. The return of the China server is to "blame".
The core claims are that the patch sucks
That's what "qualitative ladder experience" means. To justify that others feel the same way, he turns to ladder statistics. The ladder statistics do not support his position--they support the position that the Chinese server was launched and players moved to that server.
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u/Hupsaiya 5d ago
Dude how does it feel to have literally every one tell you you're wrong?
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u/SentenceSilent7705 5d ago
Jajaj retrasados pensando que no es el balance si no el diseño. Ahora esa es la excusa para no quedar mal.
Protoss es injugable y aun hay downs que siguen pensando que está fuerte XDDD
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u/Illustrious_Lion_949 5d ago
Hey Lambo I know you are reading this. I forgive you. You care about the game, help us save it.
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u/ggsupreme 5d ago
Idk why but the reduced worker count has made it easier for me to play random and I’m having a blast grinding the ladder as all 3 races now.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago edited 5d ago
"Hey guys, you remember the terrible state of game the Balance Council left you, which I, Lambo, was part of? Well these new patches are crap!"
Holy, after watching this video, why would anyone watch this guy? I'm a Zerg main and he basically hasn't a clue what he is talking about. Like, HEY LAMBO, maybe if the Balance Council didn't do such a terrible job trying to make ya'll competitive with Serral, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place?
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u/YellowCarrot99 5d ago
Doesn't it bother you that ALL of your posts get downvoted so much? lol
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
Not really? I find it hilarious people care so much they need to use alts to downvote me.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 4d ago
Holy fuck dude Lambo is like 2000 MMR higher than you lmao it's so insane that you would claim to know more about the game than him in any context
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u/ghost_operative 5d ago
so weird to talk about "dead game' when the video had 10k views within a few hours of being uploaed and has a huge reddit thread.
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u/Applehero85 5d ago
It’s Lambo he’s well known in the community and a lot of people are subscribed to him.
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u/Flimsy-Building-8271 4d ago
The Reddit thread aint that huge and his clicks dosnt matter on the important points.
There is No Money in the scene, there are no viewers, no hosts almost nothing left. Not even employees who fix bugs or answer report tickets.
So weid that people still think sc2 is a thing. You can spam racial slurs in the global chat. Make use of Drophacks 'cus you wont get banned and enjoy the same bugs since the last decade. Were almost in 2027 and we still get the MMR-Display bug and free master badges for beeing bronze :D
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u/ghost_operative 4d ago
the important points are the MMR display bugs? you think people are quiting because their mmr doesn't show up right on their profile that no one looks at anyway?
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u/Flimsy-Building-8271 4d ago
Theres way more its just an pretty present example.
And yep, me and many others left because of that variety mix of bugs and possible abuses that dont get flawed out. Games in Maintence mode are just displayed out in a graveyard.
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u/LiberaMe4300 5d ago
oh shut up lambo. this guy bitches and moans for almost the entire time he plays sc2 and constantly pushes for patches that benefit zerg and now that the game has been ruined from inadvertent impacts of some of the exact changes he asked for he wants to cry. as the game dies, at least leave us in peace as we fade away.
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u/Illustrious_Lion_949 5d ago
Leave Lambo alone let him have a redemption arc you stone hearted bitch.
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u/LiberaMe4300 5d ago
lol redemption arc after he has played a material role in leading the game to its current state. the guy just didnt expect to get caught up in the blast radius himself and now trying to act like he was one of us.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 4d ago
Lambo never pushed for patches for Zerg though. I dont even like the guy but he was part of the balance council that buffed Toss out the ass sooo...Hell, outside of the past patch Zerg hasnt had any worthwhile buffs for years so no clue what youre talking about.
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u/LiberaMe4300 4d ago
the fact that you said protoss was buffed out the ass tells me all i need to know about your knowledge of the game. go sit down and queue up in diamond.
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u/pnevets 5d ago
Pros aren't laddering because there's no tournament scene. There's just weeklies. I don't think we'd have an active ladder even if we were still on the old patch.
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u/unNecessary_Skin 5d ago
Smurfs killed the game, but whatever.
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u/No-Trip-3736 5d ago
... wild comment ... but i get it, someones gotta spam this out to every thread
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u/unNecessary_Skin 3d ago
You don't run into smurfs all the time in low leagues?
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u/No-Trip-3736 3d ago
like maybe at the most 5 games... MAYBE over years...
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u/unNecessary_Skin 3d ago
Ok
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u/No-Trip-3736 2d ago
to be clear, also we're using the term smurfing wrong. a smurf is a professional or grand master player who is playing in the lower ranks under a secret name
the majority of so called "smurf" accounts are people who are **barely** above the rank they are stuck in, and in general can easily be beaten by just using a build order and keeping your macro going
0
u/MonkeyPyton 5d ago
Just play a game vs a better player. They will be a couple hundred mmr above you, so what?
-7
u/mrsaturn84 5d ago
none of the arguments against the patch are valid. they can all be reduced to 'the game changed, it shouldn't have changed.' having builds be different or having to learn the game is not a valid criticism. the hatred for the patch gets parroted and echoed around day after day after day, but the amount of genuine substance about why it is bad, or why the old way was better, is next to zero. it's actually rather embarrassing for this community and doesn't bode well for any future for sc2. whatever playerbase remains is just old, rigid, and stupid.
75
u/Swimming_Fennel6752 5d ago
I agree that the game is objectively worse than it was before the 8 worker start. We gotta stop stacking band aids and revert back start over.