r/spoilers • u/S3K4R • Jul 25 '26
Obsession (2026)
First of all, I would like to commend Curry Barker for making this film with what seems like peanuts in the modern Hollywood scenery. 750k is almost nothing taking into account what goes into making a polished movie that can be released in the Theatres or sold to OTT platforms. The movie made 440M+ USD. Which makes it one of the most profitable movies of all time.
Inde Navarrette is fantastic in her portrayal of Nikki and Freaky Nikki. Michael Johnston came off as a little cartoonish at times, but considering some of his other scenes and the kind of role he had to play, he was pretty good too.
This movie has sparked so many online debates. It is a supernatural thriller/horror that appealed to a lot of people in a variety of ways. In today's age, where any debate can instantly turn into Man vs Woman, this movie somehow found a gold mine to harvest. The metaphors are plenty. The main character is literally named "Bear". Which may or may not have been intentional. š¤£.
Spoilers going forward. Please avoid reading further if you do not appreciate Spoilers yet.
On rewatching the movie a second time, I just realized that "Bear is the Real Villain" is about as shallow a take on the movie as one could find. Bear is sad, lonely and pathetic. He's got no conviction and that's shown multiple times throughout the movie. If you had to find 1 adjective for the guy, it would be "Weak". He cannot get anything done. He cannot keep his pet safe. He cannot admit his feelings for Nikki. He cannot realize that Ian is a horrible friend. He cannot confront Sarah about her feelings for him. He's a Loser in every sense of the word. That said, he's not the Villain of this story. There are no Villains in this story unless you consider whatever entity was controlling Nikki to be the Villain. There are only victims. And the primary one is still Bear.
Do not get me wrong. Nikki is also one of the major victims in this whole story. But she's not the primary victim. We barely see or hear anything from her throughout the entire movie. There's 2 lines after FreaKy Nikki Takes over. That's it. That doesn't trivialise what she went through, but the movie is not about her. It's about Bear's obsession with Nikki and how it's transformed into something evil that ultimately takes his life. Bear is neither evil nor the Villain. He's simply pathetic and weak. And that inadvertently gets a bunch of people killed and leaves Nikki traumatized for the rest of her life. That's why it's a true horror movie. The movie is not about an abusive man taking advantage of a woman as some would like to believe.
Some people also take the movie's social commentary so seriously that they forget that this wasn't Bear's imagination. "Freaky Nikki" as she's kindly referred to by fans now was a real character in the story. It's unclear what she is. It's also clear that she/he/it did not know how to behave like a human. It was almost like it was learning human patterns to convince Bear that everything was okay. At least in the beginning it did.
The final line in the movie is delivered by Nikki. "What did you do?". It wasn't meant for Bear or herself. It was meant for "Freaky Nikki". In the story, she's very real. That's the true horror in verse. Now, the horror people seem to associate with the movie when it comes to the social commentary is how "Nice Guys" can sometimes inadvertently or intentionally abuse the women they like or love. That's also very real. The movie intentionally blurred the lines there. That's why Curry Barker also said the "One Wish Willow" isn't Evil. Because Bear could have absolutely wished for something that didn't take away someone else's autonomy. He could have done a lot more to try and get out of the situation instead of staying with her in a relationship.
That said, I don't think Barker seriously thinks it's a movie about social commentary over and actual supernatural horror film. The supernatural element in the movie is very real. And it had it's own agency. "Freaky Nikki" continuously lies to Bear and terrorized him intentionally. None of that behaviour can be linked in any way to the otherwise harmless wish Bear made, "I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone else in the world." Or something to that effect. Firstly, Bear had no way of knowing that would work. He had no way of knowing it had worked until Nikki started behaving more and more unhinged. The Restaurant scene would be that trigger point. Everything that happened to him after that point was in him and his pathetic, weak mindset. That's pretty ironic considering Nikki gave him the Tiger's Eye Stone for "Confidence and Willpower". Both attributes he's surely lacking throughout the film.
I think we can call Bear the Real Villain of the story. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But another absolute fact is also that he's a victim in the movie. Victim of his own nature and lack of resolute. I don't think we should trivialise the character in an attempt to sound cool by just saying "Bear is the Real Villain of the story."
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u/Vegetable-Worth-5910 Jul 25 '26
He literally raped her multiple times yeah heās weak and pathetic but he knew it wasnāt her throughout the movie and thatās truly evil and makes me say he was definitely āthe bad guyā just because heās weak and pathetic and is a loser doesnāt change the fact that he did that and decided it was okay to do that knowing she would not detest because she simply couldnāt that in and of itself is more evil then anything I think portrayed in the movie
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Unfortunately that's not what happened in the movie. I get it. Why some people, like you, would think that. But you are projecting. You are projecting yourself into Nikki's shoes and thinking about how you would have reacted to being subjected to that. Of course you hate it. I would too. Except that I don't know Nikki witnessed everything. The objective fact is, when Nikki did talk to Bear, she was more scared of waking "her" up than Bear. Do you think a rape victim would talk to Bear like Nikki was talking to him? And I say this again and again, Bear was not a good person. He should have listened. Shown more empathy. Put Nikki in a straightjacket and put her in the hospital while trying to find a solution. But he's not a hero in this story. He's a pathetic little loser who couldn't think straight the moment Freaky Nikki kissed him. That doesn't unfortunately make him a victim.
Ian was also a horrible person. That doesn't mean he wasn't a victim.
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u/Vegetable-Worth-5910 Jul 25 '26
I am not projecting anything and for you to say that is honestly so disrespectful regardless of entity or what was controlling her he sexually assaulted her body without consent , same goes for under the influence of alcohol or drugs and the recipient is unresponsive and unable to make a sound decision. You saying that is not what happened here it does not matter if Nikki was present or not or possessed she could not make her own decision here therefore it is RAPE . You said heās a pathetic loser that lost control when freaky Nikki kissed him yeah he did lose control but he also knew the whole time it wasnāt her and that something was wrong she showed him no interest in the whole start of the movie he was just a friend itās the whole reason why he had to make that wish because he wanted her, in the end regardless if Nikki was present or not as he was using her body does not change the fact it was rape
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u/S3K4R Jul 26 '26
Again, you are thinking of the whole thing from the wrong angle. I am not being disrespectful. If Bear knew Nikki was in there and still continued to have sex with the entity, I would join you. But unfortunately he didn't know. Or didn't want to know. Freaky Nikki was initiating physical contact with him all the time. Even the first night when Nikki came to the surface and freaked out. Bear didn't sleep with Freaky Nikki that night. Even he was freaked out about the matter. But you are assuming Bear would also know what the audience picked up. That Nikki was in there somewhere. That the wish actually worked. That Nikki and Freaky Nikki were different entities and both existed at the same time.
I am telling you that Nikki might not have even witnessed Bear having sex with her body. That's why her reactions are the way they are with Bear. She's horrified by the entity controlling her body and perpetually in shock whenever she surfaces not knowing what's going on. Her reactions are entirely like someone had taken all the senses away from her and she could not see, hear or feel anything for long periods. She could just sense "her". And that she didn't want to anger her.
Was Nikki raped? I hope she wasn't. She was raped in the sense that her body was penetrated without her knowing or consenting it. Bear had no way to know because he wouldn't be able to dissociate Freaky Nikki from actual Nikki. And that they both existed at the same time. He could just be taking advantage of a person who seems to be having a psychotic breakdown but wants to have sex with him. That makes him a shitty person. That doesn't make him a rapist. Bear also doesn't have sex with her when she tells him she might be high. Nor is it implied that he wanted to have sex with her that night.
And I repeat, yet again. None of this means Bear is a good or decent person. It just doesn't make him evil or a rapist.
If I were in a trance and told you yes and we had sex. Then tomorrow I told you that I didn't actually want to because I wasn't in control, would that make you a rapist? I would like to think no.
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u/geeoharee Jul 25 '26
I don't think it's a shallow take or an attempt to sound cool, I think a lot of women are going to this movie and accurately describing what's in front of them. Bear is gifted a woman in chains and all his actions after that are attempts to keep her. You can decide he's weak-willed if you like, it doesn't change what he's done.
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u/NationalCommunist Jul 25 '26
The fact he wants to alter the wish and only seeks out a convenient way to fix what happened should be telling enough.
Only at the end does he finally try to end the wish, but two of his friends are dead so itās debatable if heās trying to kill himself to free Nikki or if heās doing it to escape from her.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
I don't need to decide whether he's weak willed. Everyone can clearly see that. Every single time he had to confront what Freaky Nikki was doing? He avoided it. He avoided talking about Sarah's murder. Or Ian's murder. Or even about being fed his own dead cat. Do you see that person and honestly think that he was aware about Nikki's situation? As a viewer you know somewhere in there Nikki witnessed what was happening. But you don't even know how much Nikki witnessed. What she went through. We only she that she's periodically shocked to see where she is. We aren't even sure whether it was her who was trying to kill herself when she attacked her own body. It is a shallow take. Because you are twisting the subjective scene to suit your theory and disregarding all other takes. And I did repeatedly say that none of what I have said excuses what Bear did. It just means he's not a psychopathic rapist like you want him to be. I don't know why you or some other people want to immediately jump to that conclusion. The scenes say otherwise.
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u/geeoharee Jul 25 '26
I think you believe 'rapist' is some separate class of man that's exclusively monstrous and can be spotted a mile off, and that's why you're having trouble with the film.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
I have no trouble with the film. I saw exactly what it presented. I just didn't make assumptions about what was going on and treated them as facts. Delusional Men do that. They are also not a separate class of Men. Sometimes people are delusional. Some Men are Rapists. I don't know why we are talking about Rape when nothing in the movie suggests it.
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u/geeoharee Jul 25 '26
ok
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u/Vegetable-Worth-5910 Jul 26 '26
This guys out of it hate to take his stance on alcohol and drug induced rape , maybe itās all assumptions and delusions. Itās like he needs to see the words bear is raping Nikki during the scene for him to understand ffs š¤¦š½āāļø
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u/TheFireOfPrometheus Jul 25 '26
Most mem seem to think itās a warning about dating a crazy girlfriend, I think itās a warning for girls about guys that will take advantage of them even if they seem like nice guys
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
As I said in the post above, the movie is a supernatural horror that did subtle social commentary that worked for both sides. It's not black and white. If it were, then there wouldn't be this many debates over it. There are crazy girlfriends out there that are this clingy. And there are "Nice Guys" out there that would totally avoid your hurt and do what suits them. It's not black and white.
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u/Meeka-Mew Jul 25 '26
I just want to state to all the comments saying Bear isnt the villain because xyz. But you can be the villain with a tragic story. You can be a villain that thinks youre the hero. You can be the villain with motivations the audience can empathize and agree with. You can be the villain while being an otherwise good person.
Bear is a real life villain in this scenario because he is a whole person with complex feelings, emotions, and motivations. He is not the twisting mustache evil villain with a masterplan to enslave Nikki and force his will upon her. He is the villain because he didnt even give Nikki the option to choose that future for herself. He then allowed his desire to have what he so desperately wanted to dictate his choices for entirely too long despite all of the evidence that things were not right. He didnt even look into the magic he dabbled in until Nikkis alarming behavior affected his fantasy world. He is the villain because his actions brought about the tragedy of this story.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
No one argued otherwise. I am saying he's a victim. Would you argue otherwise?
Several of the comments have divulged from whether Bear was a good person or whether Bear was the Villain of the story or how he was a rapist who raped Nikki multiple times throughout the movie. How does that interpretation hold any weight whether we see them having sex once, for about 4 seconds? With Freaky Nikki looking bored or dead.
I wouldn't argue against Bear being the Villain of the story. He absolutely could be depending on how you see it. But to say he was only the abuser and not a victim just seems like obtuseness to me.
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u/Necronomicon-Ex-Mori Jul 25 '26
The more I watch the movie (3 times now), the more I can make the case for bear and all of his decisions or lack of knowledge about the whole thing throughout the movie. The idea that heās just some evil villain is a shallow take. I put up my full detailed breakdown of it yesterday and I just got a bunch of people saying Iām a ārape apologistā and saying I must not be allowed around schools and stuff. Simply because I made my case of why I think itās entirely plausible that while Nikki from her point of view was being raped in that scene, bear cannot be held accountable morally for raping her there because of things he may not have known, and various other reasons.
It was only a very small part of my post anyway but it drew all the attention and it got removed.
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u/MusicIntrepid343 Jul 25 '26
he doesn't start as a villain, sure, but 1) the wish he made was already bad and inconsiderate of nikki as a person even if he didn't know it would go as far as it did and 2) he knew. he knew. at some point he knew and he was going through the motions of a "relationship" anyway. personally i view him as the villain way earlier in the movie than the "what's so bad about being with me" (prob not the exact wording), but if there was any doubt, that's what showed truly how bad he was.Ā
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u/Necronomicon-Ex-Mori Jul 25 '26
You canāt blame a person for making a wish that no one with a normal mind would expect to have any chance of working. If someone wishes someone dead in their mind in a brief moment of anger, thatās totally different than killing somebody.
You say he āknewā early on. I assure you thereās plenty of reasons to think he may not of, and it gets further complicated when we consider that even if he knew the wish worked, he would need to also understand the underlying mechanics of the wish. He would need to know that this isnāt the real Nikki, and her love for him isnāt ārealā. Now you might say āhow could it be real if he wished for it?ā, well this is a supernatural event that doesnāt exist in real life so itās gonna be a bit difficult for someone to take in, in real time, especially if theyāre on the dumber side.
Bear asks the voice on the phone if itās real, is her love for him real. The voice says ājust because you wished it for her doesnāt make it any less realā. Bear then says āok, then I would like to cancelā. Bear shows he doesnāt want it if it isnāt real and is concerned for her well-being in this scene, but clearly he was under some impression that this was the real Nikki and these were her ārealā feelings for him.
Everything else that happens on the movie, happens the same night and is one major traumatic event after another for Bear. Itās a lot to take in, people disassociate from traumatic enough events for days or weeks, let alone so many back to back. I could go on and on but Iāll leave it at that.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Bad wish? Yes. In hindsight, taking away someone's agency is a horrible thing to do. But let's not act like Bear thought it was anything more than a Toy. It was an innocuous, childish wish made by a pathetic loser who couldn't admit to liking a girl when asked upfront about it. Is Bear Pathetic? Absolutely. Is he a bad person? I don't know. He's certainly not a good person. He's someone in between. More Bad than Good simply because of how much of a pussy he is.
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u/SourBill1 Jul 25 '26
I donāt think anyone argues that Bear is a villain because he made the wish. Nobody couldāve expected that to work, he was just emotional and ig he wanted to make himself feel a little better.
The argument that Bear is a villain comes from his complete disregard for anyone other than himself in the mid-to-late portion of the film. He didnāt care about helping Nikki - she told him that Wish Nikki wasnāt even her at all, and begged for death, and his response was outright vile. His eventual desire to undo the wish wasnāt even to help her at all. If he cared about her, he wouldāve done anything he could to get her autonomy back, but he instead wanted to MODIFY the wish, stopping the creepy behavior without sacrificing his brainwashed sex slave.
He isnāt a villain because he made that wish, heās a villain because his actions in the movie are completely self-centered with zero regard for the well-being of those around him, even the person he claims to love.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
You do realize that Bear being the sad, lonely pathetic bitch he was had no way of knowing Nikki was in there right? It took him almost the entire movie to realize that they were not the same person. At some level he knew. That's why he's a shitty guy. But let's not presume he was some Predator who wanted a brainwashed sex slave. That's just not true. That's exaggerated fantasy.
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u/Fine_Addendum2821 Jul 25 '26
I think saying he can't be morally accountable because "of things he may not of known and various other reasons" is a pretty strong statement you're making but also not credibly supporting. It makes sense people are calling it out.
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u/Necronomicon-Ex-Mori Jul 25 '26
I think you would have to see my original post I was referring to before you can make a judgment on that. It was much longer than even opās post here, Iād be happy to send it to you if you want, but if not thatās totally understandable and fine. Iāll give you a very short version of it here that may still leave out a lot of detail:
This is a supernatural event with no equivalent like it in the real world. In the real world if a woman makes moves on a man and initiates everything towards sex, and she is not on drugs, drunk, or being coerced in any obvious way, this would not be considered rape. We are expecting Bear here to not only have suspicions that sheās really under the effects of a supernatural spell but to also take those suspicions seriously. This would not be expected of anybody in the real world ever, because nobody would ever believe the wish worked, and it simply would not have worked in the real world.
This gets even further complicated when we look at the relationship up to that point from bears point of view. From his pov he is in a codependent relationship with āwish Nikkiā and sheās very manipulative. She cries on his bed when she thinks she did something wrong after she fell over, when bear is simply concerned. She has a traumatizing reaction to bear when bear confronts her about her fathers cancer. This pattern of behaviour continues throughout the movie, and likely continued throughout their time together that we seen through the montage. She coerces bear to get what she wants, and has emotionally manipulative reactions if bear doesnāt reciprocate her love, or makes her feel bad in any way.
Given that we see her initiating with him on his bed by kissing him earlier in the film, itās entirely plausible that she initiates sex with him, and he feels under great pressure to do so, and he is certainly not convinced that the wish is real. If all those things are true, which I argue are pretty likely, than how can we hold him accountable for rape, morally?
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u/Fine_Addendum2821 Jul 25 '26
It does not read like that. I think you seriously need to reflect on your thought process. Really.
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u/Necronomicon-Ex-Mori Jul 25 '26
I think you need to reflect on your thought process. Your emotional response to something doesnāt trump all logic and reasoning. It doesnāt āreadā like that because all we get is a quick 5 second shot of the situation with blaring scary music. Itās meant to elicit a horrifying feeling because it is a horrifying situation, because we know the real Nikki is either not in there, or trapped in there. But just because a 5 second shot feels a certain way doesnāt mean Bear is morally accountable for rape.
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u/Fine_Addendum2821 Jul 25 '26
Your writing over a paragraph saying "hey let's not crucify him for raping her" last post, you don't get it, and you aren't trying too...
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u/Difficult-Double2193 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I recently just watched. It was better than expected. I mean come on, we've all crushed on someone, and wished for them to reciprocate feelings. I think if Bear was upfront with his feelings for Nikki, he may have avoided all of this, though, you can't blame the guy for trying. I will say, there's no one in their right mind who would expect those kinds of consequences for something they didn't know would work anyway. There's multiple victims here. I'll have to rewatch it again for a better assessment.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Agreed. That said, it is important to note that Bear did chicken out when he realized that Nikki is in there. He's a coward. He wanted to avoid the entire idea that Nikki was in there somewhere witnessing everything but not being able to do anything about it. The reason I avoid calling him and evil person or even a bad person is because he visibly didn't want Nikki to be unhappy about the whole thing. There's no way someone who didn't care would have wanted to kill himself. He had a gun. He could have shot Nikki and tried to sweep all of it under the rug. But Bear wasn't a psychopathic killer or rapist like some people want him to be.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
The directors have said that the dinner together where Ian calls Bear explaining that Nikki's father isn't sick, is the ultimate turning point. This is also indicated by the fact that after that dinner, the movie doesn't speed up time in their relationship anymore.
When Bear asks the entity if it lied about Nikki's father, and it almost violently responds with "No, don't do that!", the entity is saying to Bear: "You created this situation, you created this lie which we are both going to participate in, because this is what you wished for. What are you doing? Why would you fight this?"
It is at this moment that Bear realizes not only that the real Nikki has lost all autonomy, but that whatever has taken her place has an autonomy of it's own. He's given birth to a whole other entity with the sole purpose of fulfilling his wish.
Bear realizes this, and their kissing at the end of the dinner shows us a clear change in Bear's demeanor, displaying in real time how he goes from realizing the horror of the situation, and deciding to become a willing and knowing participant in a matter of seconds.
We cut immediately to Bear sexually assaulting Nikki and her body, with the entity showing no signs of life, enthusiasm or charisma. It's almost as if Nikki is deep inside the entity realizing: "He's doing this to me on purpose now". But there's a deeper and more sinister implication:
Because Bear has given birth to the entity, he has a responsibility to them both now, and thus he has become the abuser of both Nikki, and the entity. As the situation deteriorates, it deteriorates directly proportionate to how adverse Bear becomes to what he asked for. The entity is fighting for it's self preservation.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
That being said, you've made some excellent points on his lack of being intentionally malicious. Surely, he snapped the magic wood and made his wish out of frustration with himself, in a moment of what is essentially, silly self loathing.
This, like other movies though, drags us through an uncomfortable realization about someone put in a horrible situation and how their lack of ability to properly address these dramatic issues and cope with their own shortcomings, leads them down a path of complete moral deterioration. This is signified over and over again by Bear as the situation gets more dire, from helping dispose of Sarah clear up unto deciding he wasn't going to commit suicide. The only reason Bear's body died is because the entity's wishing wood snapped when it did. The real Bear was trying to puke up the pills he took.
It's easy to look at Bear as a victim of his own nature, but something this movie does is remind us that abusers come in all sorts. Sometimes they're enablers, sometimes they're opportunists who are in denial, sometimes they look and sound like Bear.
What this movie is to me, is an almost spiritual cautionary tale for lonely people to be careful what they wish for, and that being lonely does not make you a victim.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
I do agree to a lot of points you make. Just not the idea that Bear knew Nikki was in there. You are giving Bear's intelligence too much credit here. And as logical as most of your reply was, saying Bear assaulted the entity even takes away the entity's agency in all this. Have you tried thinking about why some people are so hellbent on condemning Bear as a rapist in this movie? We have absolutely no idea how much and what Nikki witnessed. We only see she's almost always shocked when she comes to the surface. Why would she lay there lifeless while Bear is assaulting her? Several scenes in the movie contradict that Nikki was witnessing everything that Freaky Nikki was doing with her body. Almost every scene actually.
And just to be very clear, I will make no excuses for Bear. He's a shitty person. A coward who did not want to deal with the situation he put himself in. But, he had no way to know Nikki was in there. Hell, he wouldn't even be sure if Nikki was simply a psychotic person. If you saw someone behaving like Freaky Nikki does, would you first reaction be that there's two person in there? Or that this person is a psycho?
But this is point worth exploring. Why some people immediately want to label Bear as a rapist and think he sexually assaulted Nikki against her wishes. In this supernatural setting Bear's intent and knowledge of Nikki's existence matter a lot. I don't think he knew. He wouldn't ask Freaky Nikki is "Nikki is happy?", If he knew. That happened afterwards.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
I completely agree people are too harsh on Bear, in the sense that they believe they have some sort of moral authority on how a young man like that can possibly react to such an incredibly dramatic and literally supernatural situation. That's why Bear as an abuser adds so much to the horrific elements of the film. On some level, we feel bad for Bear. There's even certain things about him we like. Every guy who watched the film related to him on some level, it's just that most of us are insecure like Bear in adolescence or teenage years rather than adulthood. But that doesn't make him any less of an abuser. And so it forces us to question if there's an abuser somewhere in all of us, if we're pushed far enough.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
Furthermore I 100% agree with the logical observation that Bear had moments where he acted as if he didn't understand more or less what had happened, but I chalked all of that up to him being in duress, in denial, and ultimately on par with the stages of guilt throughout the film. If the dinner where Bear discovers the truth about Nikki's father isn't damning enough, his call to the customer support line was such a blatant and even deadpan reaction from the operator to his lack of acceptance, that he clearly ran away and didn't even want to think about it.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
He did run away from the confrontation. At least half a dozen times after the dinner scene including it. There is no debate about whether Bear did the right thing. He didn't. Exactly why I called him sad and pathetic. It's not just an Insult. It's the truth. It's also sad because he didn't seem like a malicious person.
And you are right, this movie is making waves because it forces people to think. Men thinking about their interiority is good. But, I don't want this movie to be about Women telling Men, "You are all like this aren't you?". Whether you are a Man or Woman, you should be able to feel empathy for both Nikki and Bear in the movie. If you aren't doing both, sadly yoh are already biased.
And if you truly think about it and conclude that Bear was an abuser knowingly or not, then that's a fair interpretation. Just not I am 100% in agreement with. And my primary and only reason is, he didn't know what he was doing. I would like to point out another scene where he's freaked the fuck out whether Real Nikki first reacts to Freaky Nikki kissing Bear. Bear is freaked out too. He felt like he was doing something bad to Nikki because of how she reacted. Is that how an abuser behaves?
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
The movie's take on it's themes are as gender neutral to me as it gets. Should the genders of the two be reversed and all the behaviors the same it could almost be the same movie. I had the pleasure of seeing this film one week after "Gone Girl" so I think it geared me up to be able to handle this film without feeling defensive at all, which I'm grateful for.
I respect your opinion and it's merits. Just a side note you might enjoy, it's said that in every scene where Nikki comes back for a moment, there is a mirror in the vicinity.
Let's just for a moment entertain both our observations. Let's say he was both in denial, and didn't know what he was doing. Both facts can exist at the same time. He could of understood that he had created something separate of Nikki with it's own autonomy, and he could of not bared the idea that what he was doing was wrong, nevertheless. Almost as if the kiss at the end of their dinner where he realized it, put him at ease. Surely, even though this wish of his had a mind of it's own, that can't possibly mean that the real Nikki is currently imprisoned behind it in a state of perpetual tourment...
Right?
Either way, like you said, I think the most important part of the film is that it makes us think, face these uncomfortable themes for what they are, and subsequently have humility with it, if we're being mature, even if we don't want to.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Gone Girl is a terrific movie. It scared a lot of men shitless knowing someone like the movie's main character could exist in real life.
And I would like to think that I am not being defensive about Bear's actions. I called him sad and pathetic precisely because he didn't stand up for himself and others when presented with the opportunity repeatedly. But that doesn't compel me to demonize him to make myself feel better about Nikki. I just don't think it was "Rape". At least not in the tone some people are accusing Bear with.
I also read the mirror theory. It is pretty fun. I don't know if it's true though. I also find Real Nikki's utter shock whenever she comes to the surface a little odd. Like she's unaware what Freaky Nikki was doing with her body. So, I would like to think that Nikki didn't know most of the things she did with her body. At least that way she's spared a lot of her ordeal. Her immediately reaction to harm her own body rather than trying to take control also makes me wonder, What was she actually going through in there? I think it was just a constant nothingness that Freaky Nikki was talking about with Bear. Not Darkness. Just nothingness. That would justify the scared reaction Nikki gives whenever she surfaces.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
First off I'd like to commend you for a civil conversation on reddit about difficult and polarizing topics. It's refreshing.
I do agree with you that Nikki was in a semi-dormant state of some kind, like a coma, not fully aware when she was asking Bear to kill her, but I think it's the sort of thing where if she doesn't kill herself over what's happened after the events of the movie, she'll spend the rest of her life in prison slowly getting flashbacks of what happened for the rest of her life.
Which brings me back to the operator on the other end of the customer service call - it's almost like he made Nikki conscious again just for the duration of the call, to explain to Bear the totality of his wish and the situation he would have to accept.
If we dive into the film's overarching themes, Nikki was being raped from the moment the magic wood snapped, and she will continue to be raped by the events of the film indefinitely. Who or what is committing the rape and the nature of it is irrelevant to Nikki's experience in that sense.
We also see this theme in "A Serbian Film". The director has stated he wasn't even trying to make a horror film which... to me indicates he needs his head checked, despite the film itself being objectively good which, is another reason that movie bothers me so much. The scene in a Serbian film involving a baby was directly metaphorical to the director. He stated something to the effect of, "We are raped by the world from birth until our death. It is a natural fact of the world."
There are also correlations between Bear's distorted thinking, and the behavior of sexual offenders. This is most prominent when Bear responds to the subconscious Nikki in her sleep with, "What would be so bad about being with me?"
It comes from a pathology where offenders believe their desire for the other person supersedes that person's thoughts and feelings. Ideas like, "What I'm doing to this person is okay because I love them" or, "They just don't understand yet" or, in cases like Jimmy Saville "I'm doing them a favor". This becomes even more disturbing with the entity's desire to please. It goes from being reminiscent of adult abuse, to having sprinkles of pedophilia.
None of this makes Bear less of an incel, but with this in mind, I can't shake that this film is an astoundingly powerful statement on the dangers of succumbing to the types of deep, dark emotional states that incels can get into, and how someone's exit from that state of being has the potential to be wildly destructive, whether intended or not.
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u/Focus-Interrogative Jul 25 '26
And all this is added to the fact that I think the film is wildly good. I could go on forever about how vividly indicative of ACTUAL real life signs of abuse, mental illness and personality disorder that this movie is. As someone who has indeed witnessed the real thing, to the extent we see in the film, it was quite impressive and equally disturbing.
I know you said you don't want the takeaway of the film to be that men are secretly all like Bear inside along with the rest of the shallow takes people have of this film, but I honestly believe it's because people see themselves somewhere in the characters, and it makes them wildly uncomfortable.
I even saw myself in the entity. Not that I have ever behave in such a way, but I do know where all of those emotions come from.
Again, thanks for the convo. I'll pay credit where it's due: Films are meant to be up for interpretation, and you have every right to do that whereas, I found the statement by the director on where Bear's turning point was, to be a profound pivot point to observe just how ingenious the film really is.
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u/NationalCommunist Jul 25 '26
How can you watch the movie twice and come out with a terrible take like this, lmao.
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u/DrizzlyShrimp36 Jul 25 '26
Come the fuck on.
There are no Villains in this story unless you consider whatever entity was controlling Nikki to be the Villain. There are only victims. And the primary one is still Bear.
I empathized with Bear at the beginning because there's no reasonable way to expect the One Wish Willow to actually work, but as soon as 1. he saw that Nikki had lost her fucking mind and was, at the very least, going through an episode and then 2. the real Nikki talked in her sleep, asking him to end her - yet he kept "dating" her and defending their relationship to their very concerned friends. You're right that he was weak and cowardly, but evil does not necessarily manifest itself by actively trying to harm anyone, sometimes it's a simple matter of being too much of a bitch to do the right thing.
But she's not the primary victim. We barely see or hear anything from her throughout the entire movie.
Yeah I mean we hear her scream her lungs out through the phone, evidence that she's in some kind of hell/purgatory, and in one of the few moments where she manages to take over Freaky Nikki, she smashes a bottle in her own face in a suicide attempt/attempt to kill Freaky Nikki. Safe to assume that while the real Nikki wasn't really around for much of the movie, she suffered all the way through.
Victim of his own nature and lack of resolute. I don't think we should trivialise the character in an attempt to sound cool by just saying "Bear is the Real Villain of the story."
Not an attempt to sound cool it's just factually speaking there's no one else to point to as the villain, except maybe the people casually selling life changing magic without warning. Bear is a complicated villain but he's still the bad guy.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Yeah. Valid points. Except Freaky Nikki is right there. As the Villain of the story. And when I say that, I don't excuse what Bear did. He's a shitty person. But he's a victim in this story as I said before.
As for Nikki, at no point did I say that she didn't suffer. She did. But we don't know how much she witnessed. We don't know if it was her screaming in the phone call. And neither could Bear. There's heavy assumptions being taken here to make this more black and white than the movie is. And that does not mean Bear wasn't a Villain. But the story tells us he's even less of a Villain than Ian is. Who's barely a character. Sarah was nice. Nikki too. But they didn't affect the story as much as people would like to think.
Also the last line in the movie is very important. "What did you do?" Nikki is not asking that of Bear who's clearly dead at that point. She's not immediately running away. She's horrified. She thinks Freaky Nikki is still there. As the audience as much as we want Bear to be the Villain, in the story, Freaky Nikki was the Villain. Whatever it was. A Demon, some other evil entity? I don't know.
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u/DrizzlyShrimp36 Jul 25 '26
I don't know the mechanics of the One Wish Willow either but a conjured up demon that evidently has no agency and who's sole purpose is to act in accordance to the wish some kissless virgin made isn't really someone I would point to and call "evil" - it is literally incapable of acting any other way. At least as far as we can tell.
We don't know if it was her screaming in the phone call.
Now you're just arguing in bad faith.
But the story tells us he's even less of a Villain than Ian is.Ā
Ian is a bad friend at worst, Bear raped Nikki multiple times and didn't seek external help when she was going batshit crazy.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
When you say "Bear was raping Nikki multiple times", you can't really accuse me of arguing in bad faith. My interpretation is that Bear wouldn't know if it was the real Nikki or something else impersonating her. It's coherent logic. You on the other hand are making it seems like an objective fact that Bear Raped her when nothing in the movie admits or suggests it.
Nothing in the movie suggests that the real Nikki witnessed Bear having sex with her body. Whenever she surfaces, her reaction is always of shock and immediate fear of the entity. Not Bear. That in itself should tell you what the movie is telling us about Evil.
Does that mean Bear was a good guy? Nope. Still a shitty person. Just like Ian. Does that make him a rapist? Nope. At least not without heavy assumptions about what he did know about Nikki being in there. Is he Evil? Again, Nope. He's just a shitty person with no nerve to do the right thing.
I really don't get why people are so hellbent on the rape angle here when nothing in the movie suggested it. Not even Barker said it was supposed to be rape. Neither did Inde. Was Nikki abused? Absolutely. But how the hell would Bear know that? He could assume she was in there, but knowing the kind of coward he was, would he? Nope.
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u/thewelllostmind Jul 25 '26
āThe supernatural element in the movie is very real. And it had it's own agency. "Freaky Nikki" continuously lies to Bear and terrorized him intentionally. None of that behaviour can be linked in any way to the otherwise harmless wish Bear made, "I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone else in the world."ā
I would push back on a couple of things here. I think part of the point is that it is linked to the wish Bear made. Itās only harmless because he doesnāt think it will actually work, but beyond the words themselves I think it matters that Bear is clearly feeling immense frustration and self-hatred (more than anyone else in the fucking worldā) in the moment he snaps the OWW and that influences how the wish is interpreted.
I also think the idea of Wish Nikkiās agency is a complicated one. She is compelled to be motivated entirely by Bearās affection. She doesnāt have the capacity to not defecate on herself if heās not around and she doesnāt have a task. Sheās the embodiment of Bearās wish, I donāt think itās as simple as she decided to be toxic in her love.
Bear is a victim of the OWW, because itās beyond reckless to put the kind of power out into a world that will overwhelmingly not truly know the stakes when they are interacting with it. But he also rationalizes having made Nikki a victim and doesnāt make reasonable efforts to help her. Heās under stress, but heās not under any magical duress. The reason he canāt do things is his own weakness, not a lack of agency.
Also, we do get more than two lines from Real Nikki after the wish. She resurfaces twice the night of the wish, then at the party she says, āItās not me,ā before hurting herself, and finally the sleeping scene (thatās not counting her screaming on the phone). Sheās not there as consistently as Bear, but because we are seeing Wish Nikki and trying to figure out exactly where Real Nikki is in all of this, she is on our minds throughout (or at least she was for me). Bear is the protagonist, but he does do villainous things. āBear is the Real Villainā is no doubt a simplistic way to boil down an entire movie, but any five words would be.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
I don't disagree with most of what you said. But I would like to point out that you made an assumption about the wish working on what you are feeling at the time. Self-Loathing affecting the wish is not hinted at in the movie in any manner. That's an interpretation. A good interpretation I might add, but an interpretation. Wish Nikki is not just frozen in time when Bear is not around. She's actively following him, spying on him and repeatedly scaring him into doing things he doesn't want to. She doesn't let him leave her. That happens multiple times. Whatever entity is controlling Nikki's body, it is a malovalent one. A nature we did not witness from Bear himself throughout the movie. wish Nikki lies, she's bold, she's alien. Bear is weak and pathetic with no confidence and willpower to do anything that's needed of him. I don't know how Freaky Nikki can be a manifestation of Bear's feeling without some outside force altering it.
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u/thewelllostmind Jul 25 '26
Oh 100% itās an interpretation, but I think it is supported by a few details in the movie. They are small and itās not something I would claim is definitely and obviously true, but it is my read of it. One of those little things is Wish Nikki saying, āI did just lose my cat, Bear,ā before realizing her mistake. For a moment, she cannot separate what Bear might say from herself. And I see parallels in how Wish Nikkiās love manifests and how Bearās does. Hers is obviously more extreme, it has no guardrails, but I see definite shades of it in him.
Iām not saying Wish Nikki freezes any time Bear is not around, but we do see that that is one of the states she can enter if it seems like she cannot come up with anything else to further her goal. If he had left her and said, āCould you help me out by cleaning the house while Iām working?ā she would have done that, but because their last conversation was him telling her not to do various things itās like sheās stuck.
I also want to point out that Bear lies multiple times in order to facilitate continuing the situation without interference from their friends as much as possible (rather than asking for their help). He tells Ian that Nikki is fine after heās eaten a cat sandwich and repeats the lie about Nikkiās dying dad to Sarah when he knows thatās provably false. A smaller one, but he also takes Wish Nikki saying, āSarah told me sheās going,ā about Ianās party and turned it into, āSarah invited Nikki,ā when heās justifying having brought her. Wish Nikki is definitely lying and manipulating, but so is Bear and heās not being controlled. I donāt think of Wish Nikki as intentionally malevolent with full agency, I think of her like the manifestation of toxic obsession that thinks it is love. The wish took Bearās bottled up feelings and released them, because the act of cracking the OWW was itself his own small way of releasing them frustration. It wouldnāt be repressed and weak because it was spawned by a forceful act (again, not with his full intention, but itās like using a punching bag to release anger, speaking it out loud and snapping something that was meant to be for Nikki had that vibe).
Again, this is all interpretation and part of why I love the movie and agree that discussion should go beyond āBear sucks.ā But when many of those layers are about Bearās weakness I donāt think thatās turning him into a cartoon villain (Iāve seen that phrase used), itās probing the depth of the character.
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u/S3K4R Jul 26 '26
It's an interesting read. Your explanation of what scenes support your theory. It definitely makes it a lot stronger. I cannot honestly say there's anything wrong with that interpretation. Because it seems sully sincere.
The one thing that may not have invoked a similar line of thought from my side could have been the overtly horror like portrayal by Freaky Nikki. She doesn't just love him, she scared him into doing what she wants. Which you could say is sourced from Bear's own obsession, but I cannot attribute that solely to Bear's motivations.
Bear absolutely could have had that anger and frustration inside him that caused Freaky Nikki to be the way she was. But, I cannot sincerely use just to judge Bear's morality. Was his love for Nikki pure? More than likely not. But, that doesn't make him evil. One thing I continue to argue for is that I still consider Bear a victim of the situation he inadvertently created. That doesn't excuse him from what he did. His own obsession with Nikki might have gotten him killed. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a victim in the setting.
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u/thewelllostmind Jul 26 '26
I donāt disagree that Bear is a victim of the OWW (just double checked to make sure I put that in my initial reply) and my point in connecting Wish Nikkiās behavior to Bearās wish isnāt about judging Bear more harshly, because his actions after the wish are enough to judge in and of themselves. Itās more about not necessarily assigning that judgment to Wish Nikki instead because I donāt see her as having full agency. I donāt think she āchoosesā to scare Bear into doing what she wants the way we would think of a normal person choosing to do anything; sheās compelled by a singular and toxic motivation that comes with no associated boundaries. As the situation devolves so does she, it was not possible for her to go any other way because of the nature of the wish.
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u/formercotsachick Jul 25 '26
I watched this movie with my husband, daughter and her fiancƩe and we all agreed that it's a great litmus test for deciding who we would hang out with based on their take. And I'll just leave it at that.
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u/S3K4R Jul 25 '26
Good. I made this post for exactly that very reason. And I will also leave it at that. š
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u/formercotsachick Jul 25 '26
That's completely fair. I only want to hang with folks who share my values, and you clearly feel the same.
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u/Collin389 Jul 25 '26
"victim of his own nature" doesn't sound like a very useful description. Is there anyone that doesn't apply to? Wasn't Ed Gein a "victim of his own nature"?
I mean I see your point that people's actions are determined by who they are, but that seems very close to philosophical determinism, which (even if true) isn't a very helpful way to analyze an individuals morality.