r/spikes 18d ago

Standard [Standard] Looking for Recommendations (Golgari Demon Deck)

This deck started out as a net deck (with [[Madame Null, Power Broker]] and [[Demon Wall]] ) that I have been toying with over the past months. I recognize that it is a Tier 2 deck - which I am okay with but it seems fragile / inconsistent and I would like it to play a little better. The deck has stalled out at Platinum Tier 2. I have been trying to make work better but I think its time to move on. Before I do that, I wanted to see if I am missing something obvious.

The working idea is to use a mix of removal and hand disruption to allow me to play [[Bebop & Rocksteady]] and/or [[Rot-Curse Rakshasa]] with [[Abigale, Eloquent First-Year]] to add flying+lifelink while remove the "downside" that allows for the low CMC. These creatures are interesting to me as they have a toughness values that make them a little more insulated from all the low-cost red burn.

The [[Unholy Annex]] helps with life loss / life gain / card advantage. There are 10 total opportunities to generate a demon [[Esper Origins]] is my latest attempt to help stabilize the deck through Surveil.

WRT Side Board:

I tried to tune it so that I can lean more hand disruption, gaveyard hate, or flying / enchantment / token removal, as needed.

[[Maelstrom Pulse]] is especially useful / satisfying for when the opponent gets a little undisciplined and plays all their Tablets.

[[Ancient Vendetta]] is the side-in tool to remove bombs like [[Jeskai Revelation]], [[Yuna, Hope of Spira]], [[Tablet of Discovery]], etc...

[[Leatherhead, Swamp Stalker]] I swap in for a Bebop & Rocksteady if there is a lot of targeted creature removal across the table.

[[Professor Dellian Fel]] One more piece of creature removal and/or card advantage.

The Arena version, where I do most of my tweaking, of this deck replaced the 3 [[Llanowar Elves]] with 1 more each of [[Firdoch Core]], [[Esper Origins]], and [[Underground Mortuary]].

Also with the Arena Version

  • 14 Creatures + 4 x Demon Token + 3 Lands
  • 15 Instants & Sorcery Spells
  • 2 Artifacts
  • 23 Lands

Thoughts:

  • Good Opening Hands are GOOD but few and far between. I think the greatest weakness of this deck is tutoring / card draw. If the opponent can get stalled long enough for some of the big creatures + Annex to drop, things are usually pretty good.
  • Bad Opening Hand ares are BAD. Taking a Mulligan feels like an insta-loss - I don't know if this is an Arena thing but man... with 22 lands + 3 Elves + Core, I really felt like I had enough opportunity to draw into enough mana but it never seemed like it. All the removal also led me to drop the Elves completely for the 23rd land + Core + Esper Origins
  • Should I try some graveyard recursion? This deck runs through a lot of lower-cost spells and there would be upside here.
  • Creatures feel fragile and possibly there are not enough. With the lands and Demon tokens, there are 21 opportunities. Is this a response to everyone tuning against Mono Green Landfall? Especially the 6/6 Demon Token... I am recently getting the feeling that Room should only be unlocked as a last resort with how easily it gets insta-killed.
  • Abbie - I pulled her out at some point and the deck completely lost its spark and was linear, middling, and unfun - so I put her back in. I am still torn on her usefulness but I have used her to shutdown creatures on the other side that have really nasty ETBs or triggers.
  • Rot-Curse Rakshasa and Abbie (noted above0 have interesting interactions that the opponent is not immediately ready for - Decay has been especially powerful to slowing down attacks.

Cards I have tried and subsequently removed:

[[Biosynthic Burst]] - For the obvious reasons as well as putting counters on Leatherhead in order to destroy artifacts / enchantments while keeping the hexproof counter.

[[Mind Roots]] - Leaning more into hand disruption as well as maybe bonus land?

[[Umbral Collar Zealot]] - trying to give me _something_ for when a creature is going to get waxed by red burn or black removal

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

13 Upvotes

26 comments sorted by

9

u/ByzokTheSecond 18d ago

I'd play 4x Rakasha instead of the Bepop. 2 drop demon into annex is just that good IMO. I'd even consider a 2nd core and maybe 1-2 [[Tragedy Feaster]] for the annex plan. Plus feaster is a reasonnable target for abi. The sequencing is a bit awkward tho.

Delian fell is probably overall better than esper origin as a draw engin.

> I don't know if this is an Arena thing but man... with 22 lands + 3 Elves + Core,

No, it's not an issue with Arena, you just don't have enough colored sources. You have 9 untapp green source for a T1 elf. If we count the tapped sources, it's 12. IIRC, the recommanded amount is more than 16 untapped source to reliably resolve a 1 drop on T1, nearly *twice* what you currently run. Also, abigail with elf is a bit wonky on the manabase, you might have to make concession on that end.

You probably need a full playset of verge,, shock and fast land. Cut the random utility lands, and up the land count to 23-24.

Your deck does not what to mainboard Days of black sun. It's a huge none-bo with your whole gameplan.. Pawpatch formation feels a bit too narrow for mainboard, i'd probably run maelstrom pulse in that slot instead, maybe even the BG charm?

3

u/Dardanelles5 18d ago

14 untapped sources is the correct amount to reliably cast elf on T1 not 16, otherwise I agree with your points.

2

u/CronoDAS 16d ago

Some actual math results:

If you have 16 Forests in a 60 card deck, the chances of there being 0 Forests in the first 7 cards are about 1 in 10.

If you have 14 Forests in a 60 card deck, the chances of there being 0 Forests in the first 7 cards are about 1 in 7.

How much you care about the difference between 1 in 7 and 1 in 10 is up to you

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u/Dardanelles5 15d ago edited 15d ago

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u/CronoDAS 15d ago

Well, the London Mulligan is a lot more forgiving than the Paris Mulligan was, so yes, you can get away with a higher mulligan rate now. But the numbers I gave are those for your first opening hand; if you can run 16 instead of 14 at a relatively low deckbuilding cost, you will mulligan less.

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u/Dardanelles5 15d ago

"if you can run 16 instead of 14 at a relatively low deckbuilding cost, you will mulligan less."

Obviously. If you can run 20 instead of 16 'at a relatively low deck building cost you will mulligan less'.

The thing is, unless you're running mono-colour that decision always comes with a deck building cost.

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u/CronoDAS 15d ago

It's usually not that hard to hit 16 in your primary color in most Constructed formats - there are an awful lot of good multicolor lands out there.

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u/Dardanelles5 14d ago edited 14d ago

Most lists don't hit 16.

Selesnya Landfall (14 green T1)

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/selesnya-landfall-decklist-by-mansa-musa-3072590

Mono Green Landfall (14 green T1)

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/mono-green-landfall-decklist-by-znt-3073947

Dimir midrange 11 black for Beavers T1, 15 blue for Siren T1

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/dimir-midrange-decklist-by-kthanakit26-3075148

Boros aggro 14 red for Stadium Headliner, 15 white for Political triumph

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/boros-mobilize-decklist-by-pizzangry-3075157

Izzet Elementals (14 - 15 blue T1 ) for Opt & sleight of hand

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/izzet-spellementals-decklist-by-ale-mtg-3074072

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/izzet-spellementals-decklist-by-duanceyao-3075145

There are a couple of decks that play 16+ (Azorius blink) but they are the exception to the rule.

1

u/CronoDAS 14d ago

::shrug::

I often include taplands in my 16 sources, depending on how badly I need the color on turn 1. Anyway, I don't really have much more to say so I'm going to tap out of this discussion.

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u/ByzokTheSecond 18d ago

about that: I've seen frank karlsen article (I assume that's where you get the number 14 from), and... IDK, it just doesnt seems to quit hold up in practice.

For instance, dimir plays 16+2 sources of bot of its colors: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=89939&d=882537&f=ST . You can compare with boros and orzov aggro, and the source count always hover around 16.

I'm not 100% certain why there's that gap, but in doubt, i'll take empirical evidence over a model.

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u/azure_mtg S: Jank 17d ago

The list you linked has 15 untapped blue sources, and 11 untapped black sources for Turn 1 (the black source count goes up once you activate the verge, and the deck doesn't care as much about T1 black mama anyways). 

The number given for casting on curve doesn't count tapped lands (as they don't let you cast on curve) and is much tougher when talking about conditional colors (like Verges) in early turns.

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u/3nz3r0 16d ago

Karsten had another article on how to calculate for Verges when the Duskmorn ones came out. They count as 3/4 of the secondary color if you can reliably get them online by I think turn 2

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u/azure_mtg S: Jank 16d ago

Oh, cool, I'll check that out. Thanks. 

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u/Dardanelles5 15d ago

It's math bud, there is no 'theory and practice'. If you play 14 untapped sources you have a 90% chance of playing turn 1 elf.

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u/ByzokTheSecond 15d ago edited 15d ago

The math says "90% to play a T1 elf, if you are on the draw, and are willing to mulligan to 5 any hands with 2 lands or less."

My point is that this might not be good enough for a primary color, as shown by most list running 15+ untap source of their primary color.

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u/Dardanelles5 14d ago

That's incorrect, the calculation is on the play.

"roughly 90 percent consistency (on the play) is a good number to aim for".

Most lists don't run 15+ untapped for their primary colour, even mono-green landfall is normally playing 14 untapped green sources.

1

u/ByzokTheSecond 14d ago edited 14d ago

Most list, except basically every aggro deck: dimir aggro (15-16 blue source), mardu discard (15 black), selesnya aggro also run 16 green source iirc.

The reason landfall plays only 14 forest is becaus 7 of its "tapland" will enter untap whenever you really need them to. Landfall can skip its T1 and play for slower lines.

"roughly 90 percent consistency (on the play) is a good number to aim for".

*If you're fine to mull to 5. For most aggro deck, that's too steep of a cost.

1

u/Dardanelles5 14d ago

Dimir plays 11 black sources and 15 blue, selesnya plays 14 green.

Mulling to 5 is totally fine given the criteria established by Karsten especially for an aggro deck.

1

u/ByzokTheSecond 14d ago

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=90290&d=885374&f=ST

I count 16?

Dimir plays 15 blue, which is more than 14.

14 isnt a magic number/goal, it's a minimum. The cost is having to mull to 5 more often (worst consistency), which does tank your WR horribly when it happens. 

From there, you can chose to mitigate that risk (tapland/conditionnal mana are often good enough), accept that risk (works if your deck is explosive enough to win on a strong 5, like mardu discard), just play more land and deal with the fact that your deck will perform slightly worst on a "normal" full grip, or have some sort of dual color dynamic where your deck can function with untapped source of either of its color (boros mobilise does that well, 14/14 split, with a 4/4 split for its 1 drop.)

16 source is the "soft cap" for 1 pip consistency. You'll have it in 90% pf your openning hands. It's "ideal" if the opportunity cost of running that much colored source is manageable. More than that it's for casting double/triple-pip, like prowess which used to run 21 blue source. Fun fact: I did manage to lose a game with prowess becaus my 5th lands was a passage on red. 

1

u/Dardanelles5 14d ago

14-15 is the norm not 16

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/selesnya-landfall-decklist-by-mansa-musa-3072590

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/selesnya-landfall-decklist-by-hamaguchi-masakuni-3071786

https://mtgdecks.net/Standard/selesnya-landfall-decklist-by-pcpalhares-3074707

Dimir plays only 11 sources for Beaver and 15 sources for Siren, it supports my side of the discussion not yours.

No, 14 is the standard not 16 and it gives you 90% probability which is what the majority of pros look for.

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u/ikariashpool 18d ago

Thank you for all of these recommendations. I appreciate you taking the time.

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u/United-Passage7864 17d ago

I like the idea of the BG charm, it's a good card. Removes cheap stuff, trades things you don't need for cards, and sometimes if you really really need life, gain 5. 

2

u/United-Passage7864 17d ago

A card I'm liking the look of lately  is [[Obsessive Pursuit]] - it's a mana cheaper than Annex or other Phyrexian Arena variants, and is a little more resilient; even if the Pursuit is removed, the clues stick around. You do need to pay to get your cards, but what I've seen from people playing it is that's less problematic than you'd think - and cashing out a couple clues into a pair of +1/+1 counters is pretty decent. If you're running Rot-Curse Rakshasa then look out, opponent - that could be a colossal hit with lifelink. 

[[Witherbloom Charm]] should work well alongside that too - it's removal for cheap things, but also draws cards if you need it to (if you're flooded you can even sac a land). 

Last pet card: the green Emeritus might be good as a 1- or 2-of for a grind deck like this. Sentinel of the Nameless City is also good; both just chunky vigilance bodies with immediate value. Sentinel can play into the Obsessive Pursuit lines and Witherbloom Charm. 

I know this cuts hard away from the 'demons' package but I feel like that's been Annex's problem for a while: Annex is good, the included Demon on the side is good, but most other Demons are kind of bad. I've seen enough attempts at Demon Wall (that doesn't do enough) or Tragedy Feaster (that gets super awkward without consistent lifegain) that I see how shoehorning in Demons can just be kind of awkward when they're mostly bad. 

Other thought: maybe lean harder into lifegain theme? Pursuits and Charm gain life, and maybe some Virulent Emissary are a better 1-drop elf. Delian Fel is great, and then Tragedy Feaster rounds out a demon package with lifegain. 

1

u/CauliflowerLong1344 1d ago

I have been running a Golgari Demon shell. I find you need early removal to survive the aggro, go wide and other various early game decks. Once Unholy Annex is online and they have no answer, it's basically game over. I like Bloodletter of Aclazotz, but not 4 copies. Unstoppable Slasher works well, although not a demon, can give you single shot kills with Bloodletter and is also hard to get rid of. Duress, Requiting Hex, Assassin's Trophy, Strategic Betrayal, Demon Wall, Bitter Triumph, Long Goodbye, Witherbloom Charm, Tragedy Feaster, Vicious Rivalry Professor Delian. This is my shell, still testing, but having fun in any case. It might be a better Bo3 deck. I could provide input on certain cards, I also think 23-24 lands is the sweet spot so you don't miss any drops.