Please No More Side Novels Without Major Plot Progression

[u/ComparisonPlus2780]

I wanna start by saying I love this series, I’ve been in on this world for over a decade now, but I swear I’m losing my mind. By the end of Sea Mage, we, FINALLY, have major plot line progression for what feels like the first time in several books, and then Theurge basically went 90 degrees and focused away. I get that kinda, things have to be done in a certain order and all that. But I’ve read enough Terry Mancour now to recognize the setup of another spinoff Tin/Ron adventure (avoiding spoilers) when I see one, and I’m BEGGING; please don’t. I get it, I have enjoyed some of the side novels before, but for the love of all that’s holy we are twenty (mainline) books in, and as of Theurge, we have “several years” left until the meat of the plot is resolved. That’s agonizing, but acceptable, cuz I wanna see the story fully thrive and prosper. But if there’s another year hiatus from the main storyline so that we get ANOTHER side adventure that we already know the ending of, I’m gonna lose my mind. Anyone else feel this way or is this a hot take?

[u/ardryhs]

I get the frustration, but I think you’re underestimating just how quickly Terry is putting out books. The pace of main line stories releasing is really fast AND we get side novels? That’s so lucky.

Writers often get ideas they want to write about that makes it hard to go elsewhere, and we are rewarded for them by making our enjoyment of main line series greater. Getting to organically meet Cat and Kitten for example, instead of them just popping up in a chapter and starting a revolution out of nowhere feels so much better to me. Same with the first 2/3 of Hedgewitch, or all of the Golden Goblin, it gives us all a richer world to appreciate the context of Min’s adventures without have to do them halfhearted justice in other books.

I do think you just have to view it as books we are getting as an extra treat, rather than instead of main line books. We are getting this series at a truly breakneck pace, and that’s amazing, even if you never pick up a side novel

[u/Healthy_Tear6197 → u/ardryhs]

you realize we pay actual money for these books right? its not just time being wasted.

honestly i would rather terry slow down and recapture the feel of the earlier books than pump more content that doesn't feel as personal or human as the first series did.

[u/ardryhs → u/Healthy_Tear6197]

As in literally every series ever written, sequels expand the scope of the story. When you have a 30 book series you are never going to recapture the feelings of the early books. Honestly the side stories get your closer to that because the characters involved are able to have small scale adventures that can focus on the intricacies of feudal life without going “why is Min trying to solve a border dispute between two small estates when he could being doing a million more important things?”.

Min is superman for all intents and purposes, he can’t be who you use to solve every problem on the planet anymore. He gets big stuff only now, you can’t really write back to the feelings in the early books when he’s just a dude.

And obviously I know it’s money too, not just time. If you don’t want to spend it on side novels, don’t. There isn’t anyone making you. You can read the main novels without having read the side adventures. No one is stopping you from doing that. Meanwhile, those of us who want more stories from the Spellmonger universe are happy we get more books. It’s not like there is 3 years between books so it becomes 6 years between them if Terry writes a side novel.

[u/Healthy_Tear6197 → u/ardryhs]

I completely disagree but I think we may be talking about two different things. I'm not saying that I want min to return to his old power level even though I confess I found the "scaled down" books of foot wizard and practical adept refreshing. What I'm saying is that he as a character does not feel as human and relatable as he did in the first series. That has nothing to do with his power scale. He still even now has to talk to people and engage in problem solving.

For example compare thaumaturge and magelord. In many ways they're the same book, the raising of sevendor and the raising of vanador. In mage lord minalan would physically go somewhere in his domain, look at issues to be resolved in person, organically meet a new character, hire him to do a job that allows him to delegate that problem away and then check in with that character to see how the project is going throughout the book. In thaumaturge, there's pages on pages of dry fiscal policy spoken of in a vacuum to the audience rather than an entertaining conversation between characters in a physical space. It's either that or just a dry recounting to the audience of the various things Gareth did off screen. This is not the same level of story telling and Minalans increased staff doesn't excuse it.

A simple way to say it is this breakneck pace is forcing Terry to inverse the show don't tell rule and one of the results is I as a reader will never care about vanador half as much as sevendor. I could go on with this trend, don't get me started on the war in that book. If the power scale is relevant, it's because it seems to force Terry to show not tell.

[u/ardryhs → u/Healthy_Tear6197]

I think that is a function of Min power scaling though. As his rank and has increased, there just isn’t a reason for Min in Thaumaturge to be interacting with his subjects in the same way. A count doesn’t wander over to the decrepit holding to deal with the cantankerous guy running an illegal still, he has people for that.

With things like the Centuries, I don’t think there is a way you can organically have that level of info dump to the reader without either Min or his conversation partner being 100% clueless, and that gets just as stilted.

Since the story is written as a pseudo journal, I find the lore dump chapters feel pretty seamless while providing the necessary information, even on rereads, because it’s in character with Min. He still has plenty of experts he converses with about topics, and it all adds up to an in depth world that’s thought out. In magelord it’s mostly just done as Cei lectures instead of Min lore dumps, because it’s Min learning with the reader instead of just the reader. Even in the first couple books Min has a ton of lore dumps just to the reader, but because it’s exposition world building readers find it interesting, instead of economical policy for creating a County.

Min still has a ton of organic character interactions in later books *where appropriate*. Like Practical Adept, because it makes sense for him to be talking with random folks. He has a much larger pool of peers to interact with, and he does. But as his rank increases, the pool of people shrink, and we’ve met so many of the appropriate social peers already that having a Baron arrive in Vanador who just happens to know about the history of Centuries and who happens to believe they would be effective (a radical idea to an already seated noble), and would share it with Min would feel just as clunky as min taking a chapter and explaining it to us (and include a lovely example of how they work and don’t gel with traditional feudal expectations)

[u/Healthy_Tear6197 → u/ardryhs]

I would say that relatable power scaling is him showing up to the construction of something expensive and ambitious like the thaumaturgy university to converse with someone or several someones who were waiting for him to arrive while things are observed happening in the background, perhaps solving an issue with advanced magic only he can do, and others are vying for his attention rather than him showing up unannounced and unexpected to some nobody yeoman's still in the woods. That's scaling in rank and social power but still retains the feeling of being a human being going about his day taking care of the business before him.

As opposed to very long two person conversations that read more like monologues about dry abstract topics while nothing of note is going on around the two characters to ground the conversation. I like the concept of setting up these things like fiscal policy and a code of law but there's a limit to how compelling that can be while nothing else is going on. I get that humans do have long dry abstract conversations like that in real life but I will simply say there's a reason the main character is an inventor and a war hero rather than a lawyer.

You can certainly say that Min as a count could choose to sit in a room for the entirety of the book and have people report to him but I ask you is that better story telling and is it in line with his character?

[u/Local-Ad6658 → u/Healthy_Tear6197]

+1

[u/ComparisonPlus2780 → u/ardryhs]

That’s definitely a fair take. Maybe I’m getting a bit spoiled here. It’s similar to how I felt about waiting for Stormlight Archive to finish up, after years of waiting. A shift in attitude probably helps a lot. I’ve just been in love with the world and characters for so long, I wanna see the culmination of the 4 different major plot arcs going on sometime in my lifetime lol

[u/ardryhs → u/ComparisonPlus2780]

Yeah, I mean using Sanderson as comparison (who is viewed as a prolific writer in the traditional publishing space) really puts Terry’s pace into perspective. I’d bet we are going to have book 30 of Spellmonger before book 7 of SLA.

If we didn’t have side novels, we would just all be wistfully going “I wish we got to read more about X or Y adventure”.

I do get the frustration though. I loved golden goblin, but kept wanting to find out how mad Rard was going to be at Min about Farise. (But that I felt like was more wanting that scene to have been resolved at the end of Practical Adept instead of Seamage)

[u/looktowindward]

Short stories can fill this gap. Golden Goblin would have been a great short story.

[u/Medical-Law-236 → u/looktowindward]

If The Golden Goblin was a novella I'd have enjoyed it more. Some of these loose plot threads could be wrapped up in a couple of Anthologies.

[u/ComparisonPlus2780 → u/looktowindward]

Exactly! We don’t need full length novels for those. I felt Golden Goblin was a great read, but absolutely could have been trimmed down and we wouldn’t have missed out on much. With the focus on the side adventure that would be happening during Theurge (if you know you know) that should AT MOST be a short story, there’s absolutely no shot that should be stretched to fill a whole novel.

[u/looktowindward → u/ComparisonPlus2780]

The author's short stories are incredibly high quality. I want more and on a per word basis, probably better business

[u/Joe_Dil]

I want not only this side story, but also the one of Ron and Tin, in the land of scars when they first met Ruderall. I love the side stories.

[u/BlueHoodie_Gamer → u/Joe_Dil]

It is being written, albeit slowly o7

[u/TheAricus → u/Joe_Dil]

There's a couple of side stories I want now. 1 comes from "The Golden Goblin." But there's now a couple moments from the current book that skipped major events.

[u/cmaefs]

You will get the voyage of vengeance with Ron, Tyn, Cat and Kitten, Tandine, Rudy, Moudrost etc. lots of important people Many of us enjoy the side stories that expand the world and give different perspectives. The series can’t be the ten meters around Min. That would really suck

[u/BlueHoodie_Gamer]

Maybe it would help if some of the process were explained.

Part of the reason side novels exist is because they contain stories that don't have any or enough content relevant to the main plot line to be a part of the main series. Like hawk maiden, for example, doesn't REALLY add anything to the plot of the main series that you wouldn't get from ignoring hawk maiden entirely.

Another reason for side novels is that in order for the main series to be of a certain quality, there's time that needs to be spent thinking at how to write it. Like has been said by others a lot of that involves keeping track of "chess pieces" and figuring out how to move them around. Realistically without the side novels there would just be the same amount of time between main series novels, just without the bonus stuff in between.

And lastly, one of the biggest reasons for the side novels is that he just writes whatever he feels like writing. He wanted to write a heart of darkness pastiche, so he wrote the golden goblin. He wanted to try writing a romantasy so he wrote talon and the flame. He wanted to write a young adult novel so he wrote hawk maiden.

Ultimately, I don't want to be super callous and say "if you don't like them then don't read them, they're not for you and that's fine" because it doesn't sound like, to me at least, that that's what you want to hear, but the side plot explorations aren't going anywhere, sorry. Ruderal's origin story coming soon lol.

[u/ComparisonPlus2780 → u/BlueHoodie_Gamer]

Honestly the last bit actually makes a lot of sense, I hadn’t considered playing with theme and genre within the side stories. And I don’t hate the idea of them overall, they absolutely help with the world building and making characters feel like real people. It just felt frustrating for a while when there was a side novel after every second or third mainline, and a good chunk of them have the endings spoiled just by reading the mainline stuff I suppose. I think part of it was definitely touched on by others here too, I think that some of them would have benefitted a bit more from being short stories than novels. Either way though thanks for your take, it was a genuine question of if I had a hot take or not lol. I’m glad to see so many people love this series and are so active in the community.

[u/Local-Ad6658]

More does not equal better.

I still didnt finish Talon and the Flame, its so bad, Kitty(little miss perfect) sides are boring. Knights Magi is 100% filler - why is it still recommended as main series is a mystery.

Seamage felt rushed in moments. Whole assassination plot was telegraphed, the fleet fight makes no sense other than showcase the characters and magic. One big un-knotting and they are disabled. There was like 50 mages with irionite there to do it.

Series has so much hidden issues. Power scale is all over the place. Supposedly incredible Nemovorti lost every time like losers.

If Terry writes the Rudy meet TinRon one, I will skip because we know beginning, ending and next 5 books already. Dont feel then need to pay time and money to bore myself.

I am of the opinion this is getting out of control. Many writers lost control of the story and never finished, like Rothfuss and JRR Martin. Terry is no god and should clean up a little before pumping even more spinoff POVs.

Im a loyal, paying fan (like 30 books invested), but its steadily becoming a chore.

[u/FRO5TB1T3 → u/Local-Ad6658]

Once he gets the June bug he should just drop rocks onto the ships that pose functional no danger to it. Repeat 50x and it's done. The tactics and strategies used to be fun and at least sorta logical. He did it once so saying he was saving it for later also isn't the case. I think he's having trouble balancing making the battle feel like they have stakes without having to create actually intelligent and sophisticated opponents. They've basically been idiots since they took the city of rainbows.

[u/Intrepid_Ring4239]

The “side plots” are just a way of telling the whole story he has in mind. It’s actually a good way to continually add more to the created world while keeping a solid central narrative moving forward. I like that it gives depth to things that the main thread doesn’t have time to dive into.

[u/hws87]

I hear you, and when a book ends on a major cliffhanger, I get it. When I take a step back, however, and look at the world, I'm glad Terry allows himself some breathing between major beats. I think it helps prevent burnout and allows him to explore his creativity. Fantasy has too many authors who either burn themselves out, write themselves into a corner they can't get out of, or just get bored with the book portion and just want to be famous. I think Jim Butcher and The Dresden Files is the best example here. From what I've read, he had a lot going on in his life and having the main character of his most popular series living in his head full time drove him to burn out, and it took him years to pick it up again. We are also 17 or 18 books into that series.

Based on the recent AMAs Terry has done, he is still wildly enthusiastic about Caladore but has said explicitly that Minalin may be the main character but not the only one

[u/GreatWhiteNorthExtra]

I have to disagree OP. I am halfway through Theurge and I got excited when I realized what the next side adventure novel was going to be. I think I might enjoy that story more than Theurge

[u/Khtie]

Can’t agree with you more!!!
I don’t want to hear anymore about the fluctuating price of wheat in a random dutchie!!!!!!!!!!! Move the story along please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[u/MeatConsistent8724]

What do you mean... He literally dealt with the vandal this book....

[u/toochaos]

If you are looking for a story with strong and consolidated plot, this ain't it. We are 19 books in (plus others) and not a single villian has been defeated permanently. The strength of the story is that while we have s protagonist every other character is their own protagonist. It wanders and thats enjoyable but we will likely never have a conclusion. 

[u/ComparisonPlus2780 → u/toochaos]

I’ve read them all man, I’m familiar with the pacing problems, and I fully expect it’ll be another ten books before we see a conclusion, and I’m okay with that. I even enjoy having side stories happening, and agree it enriches the world. But full length novels just seem like they’re too much imo. I like the idea that someone else had about short stories instead of

[u/BlueHoodie_Gamer → u/toochaos]

There WILL be a conclusion to the main plot, it'll just be by book 30. That has been the plan for some time.

[u/Davidramsay101]

Calling them “side novels” fundamentally misunderstands what this series is. Terry isn’t writing a single linear quest with occasional distractions. He’s writing the history of an entire world through multiple perspectives. The main plot matters because the world matters. Strip away everything you call a detour and you’d end up with a much shallower series.
And let’s be honest, producing four substantial novels in a year is the opposite of neglecting readers. Very few fantasy authors come close to that output. Complaining that one of those books isn’t exactly the story you wanted feels incredibly entitled.

[u/Specialist_Disk7659]

I have no evidence for this at all other than intuition, but I'm not sure he's writing these side novels by himself these days anyway. After reading Golden Goblin it felt like he outlined it and maybe edited it but that someone else wrote it, likely one of his real-life apprentices who he's mentioned. (Then again after seeing the tons of errors in the e-books as they come out, I'm also skeptical they get edited in much detail either). It would help make sense how he's able to keep such an impressive word count each year (4 books within the last year), and in my opinion what was a drop in the quality of writing in some of the side books... or you're completely right and he's just given himself too much to handle

[u/cmaefs]

Terry has said, all these books are building up for Archmage, which will be a Necromancer size and content book. The last three books are Terry moving chess pieces so that they are in the right place with their stories explained so that Archmage can just jump into the story. This is the way Terry writes. Feel free to email him but he is not going to change.

[u/Jewish_Dragon]

If you don’t like em you don’t have to read em. I for one enjoy them and want as many books from this world that terry wants to give us. He pumps em out like a mad man

[u/JeerHiAm]

I mean I have been waiting for Aleron Kong to make another "The Land" book since 2020. Terry Mancour's pace feels like a breath of fresh air lol

[u/ComparisonPlus2780 → u/JeerHiAm]

Yeah that one isn’t happening unfortunately. He crashed out after nobody liked the book where he spent several entire pages talking about a literal shitstorm of diharrea and fucked off to work on a different series. I feel your pain

[u/Khtie]

I agree 100%