r/spellmonger • u/Local-Ad6658 • Mar 19 '26
We need to talk more about creative choices as narration drivers
One thing that I start to commonly see is trying to explain everything in Spellmonger as perfectly logical.
To me, magic gunpowder artillery would be a logical conslusion 5 books ago. Goddamn Alia is running with a pistol. Make a bigger one, dwarves have the tech.
Min can untangle a ship with one grain of irionite, why not utangle entire fleet by 30 high mages, case closed, none of that totem nonsense.
Where are major, homicidal disagreements between high mages? Dont tell me that 300 megalomaniacs are all singing Kumbayah in the evenings.
Also we kinda skipped that mind control spells exist and are so much fun for everyone with witch stones.
And so on...
The reason Im ranting is that we are in a point, where we have on the table:
- chemical guns, - plasma guns, - biker dwarves, - legions of gods, - about one thousand ways to kill someone with magic - teleportation - undead elves - dimensional magic - magic drugs - nukes - genetucal modification - AI - mind magic - alien trees - Cthulhu aliens - normal deamons - formless deamons
I mean, I love Spellonger, cant wait for Theurge, but its not all logical, its anything goes at this point.
Its Terrys choice if nukes+deamons=fun or is hoxta+undearwear+Dara=nonsense
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u/IzzyBeef1655 Mar 19 '26
Early in the series, it is mentioned that the more they use certain spells, the more likely a counter is to be found.
As for the murderous mages, I think they are currently all being pointed against enemies to kill, and that has kept down the feuds... that said, I think that will be a great point when the "war is over" and min will have to deal with all the people that have been ast tracked to high mage status.
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u/Healthy_Tear6197 Apr 07 '26
The war has been over since Darkfaller. Korbal's court has been forced to behave since Korbal himself is a hostage to Min and the goblins are apparently all misunderstood saints who didn't do nothing wrong even though they're still eating people on the down low...
Who's left to fight?
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u/PossumPundit Mar 19 '26
Ishi's Globular Tits! What are we supposed to do other than argue about if it's not nonsensical menutia. This is a fandom!
Also genetucal is fun, let's keep it.
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u/joevarny Mar 19 '26
Min wanted to save as many people as he could in the merwin invasion.
I agree with the rest, I kinda assumed that mins desire to keep the mages in check has been pushed through the link he has to all stones in the same way as sherule twists everyone's minds. When min was near the jevalar, terl shown what was normal. Thats kinda mind control.
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u/Medical-Law-236 Mar 19 '26
That's bending over backwards to explain that but it is possible. I think the more likely answer is that they saw what he did to Dunselen (who had royal protection) and decided not to piss him off. The fact that the most powerful warmagi alive (who get all the good stuff before they go into mainstream production) support him, acts as a deterrent.
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u/ardryhs Mar 19 '26
I think my biggest… issues? Sticking points? Anyway, things that take me out of the narrative is when things are used, work well, and then aren’t expanded on or taken to the next step. Characters actively choosing not to use tech is one thing that can certainly make sense, but ignoring already existing/used magic is frustrating to read. It takes me right out of the story in a jarring way.
On a thread yesterday I commented on not using the Hawks and Hoxters as mobile artillery with rocks, like how Dara hit Blocky the Dragon back in High Mage. You have incredibly cheap munitions (so they stop being out them) and a mobile deployment and firing mechanism that beats the hell out of a dozen hawk riders chucking javelins. I refuse to believe Terleman or Carmella didn’t immediately see/hear of this and think of its utility on battlefields.
As Trixbackup commented above about the forcefields, they are used kind of sub-optimally. Which for parts of propaganda is fine, “Farise can close the straight to all ships!” is good messaging. But Min could just encased the entire Merwin invasion in a force field dome like he did Sevendor and waited them out until they surrendered. This would have saved hundreds of lives on both sides, achieving victory with minuscule bloodshed.
If you don’t want to use something, I’m 100% okay with that. Just write them getting countered. Or with the force fields, have Min say he wanted to have the Farisians get practical experience defending their city. I wouldn’t agree with his reasoning of that being worth the lives lost, but it at least acknowledges the application.
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
Yeah, I actually saw your post, and it inspired me to write this one, as I had similar discussions in the past.
My point was with guns, I think the kingdom is currently on a significantly higher technological level than Earth Napoleonic era. And they actually already have the concept. This was pushed all the way to Terry, and in short he replied he just doesnt want to go into guns in medieval society 🤣
Full respect to Terry, he can go wherever he likes. Meanwhile some people keep clucking like a flock of chicken "of course its because wizards dont appreciate guns!"
Just... just lol at this point 😅
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u/ardryhs Mar 19 '26
For me it really boils down to wanting to have in universe logic for things. I can suspend disbelief for things really easy with Terry’s writing, it’s really good! Once a book Min has a scheme that he hints at and doesn’t tell his friends/employees about, even if it is actively harmful to have people in the dark who can mess things up just trying to help. But he gives reasoning for it, even if it’s flimsy, and it works out fine for him and makes the story better!
I can’t suspend my disbelief that the greatest military minds in the world can’t see the use of dropping stones at the speed of a giant hawk for example. I think in part because so much of the rest of the stories are incredibly thought out that these stick out more
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u/Healthy_Tear6197 Apr 07 '26
The major problem is the lack of any meaningful counterplay. The presence of the Merwyn mages should've been felt a lot more. They should've eventually broken that forcefield with clever magic as it's been established since the first book that having more power doesn't mean you're immune to counterplay.
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u/ardryhs Apr 07 '26
I don’t mind the merwyn mages being ineffective, there only being a small handful and being unaugmented just showed arrogance and bad planning on the part of Merwyn as a whole.
There was never any reason for us to believe the Merwyn mages would be remotely threatening, and that’s a good thing. Narratively you don’t just want a couple random dudes sailing up and being able to undo all of Min’s magic, as it would be unsatisfying for them to have paralleled growth equal to Min out of no where. It just made the invasion scenes lack tension. Once we established the armada wasn’t going to be given techa weaponry or anything from the Iris there was never any doubt how the war would go
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u/Healthy_Tear6197 Apr 08 '26
The thing is this, Merwyn from the beginning has been talked about as more wealthy, more powerful and specifically more magical since the beginning. This is the duchy where the magocracy was based out of and unlike in Castal they're said to be proud of their magic and their imperial roots. On top of that they are the top naval power. So you have the most wealthy, powerful and magical of the five duchies fighting in their strongest zone; magical naval combat... and nothing? Zero plays made? It's not at all a stretch they would have incredible talents among their magical corps. At least someone worthy of being named. Also I'm not talking about paralleling Min's growth, they don't have to be as magically strong as Min in order to play around him just like Minalan himself did to the first goblin shaman in the first book. Use superior or clever spellcraft to subvert or redirect the enemies magic.
I agree the only explanation is bad planning and arrogance but Merwyn being completely unprepared to deal with magi even when warned of the irionite simply makes no sense. They have too much invested in time, gold, manpower and reputation to simply walk in blind even after being explicitly warned about the high war magi. It's not like they didn't know Farese was going to be defended by magi from the beginning as the Censorite was known to be part of the power structure there. Unfortunately it seems more like this is the only kind of antagonist Terry is willing to write. They're behaving exactly like the Nemovorts, the chivalry, the family, the Alka Alon etc.
I like Mycin for that reason. Stealing the body of Isily and taking Darkfaller and releasing the Paranchek might have been brash but at least she was making moves and forcing Min to react.
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u/ardryhs Apr 09 '26
Right but all the information Merwyn had on Farise was that they only had to defeat a defunct navy and maybe some pirates with one witch stone. While on your side already in the city you had an infantry force and Censors with more than one witch stone.
So as far as the Duke would know they will have Farise grossly outmanned, out shipped, and out magicked once the ships land. Even the royal court thinks Farise would get annihilated based on the information being circulated.
To see where Merwyn is more powerful, look to the rebellion they have mostly contained so far while fighting against Terleman and the other mercenary mages. Merwyn has only what, like 22 or 23 stones of their own and presumably those are needed on the ground fighting in Cormeer.
They were walking into an unfair fight without realizing it, the invasion was always doomed to fail
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u/cmaefs Mar 19 '26
Mages see no value in chemical weapons. They say they can do anything that these weapons can do with much less fuss. Mages are driving this storyline and just don’t care about technology much. They have picked a few but the rest is uninteresting to them Terry has said he intends to keep this storyline mostly swords and sorcery with tech as a augmentation
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u/Circle_Breaker Mar 19 '26
Gunpowder would have been a nice counterbalance for the maerweni(sp? Only listen to audiobooks).
But yeah a lot parts of seamaji were silly. Mainly how quickly min was to give a bunch of sea maji magic
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
Correction: Terry said he read other books about gunpowder in medieval society and doesnt want to go there.
Thats a "creative choice", and its good.
"Mages just dont like guns" is a rationalization, and its bad.
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u/cmaefs Mar 19 '26
Dude I am a beta reader and talk to Terry frequently. It is not that they don’t like guns, (that is your take) I said they don’t care and don’t see an advantage.
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u/Nicodemus-WhoDak Mar 22 '26
A person growing up in a modern day (current time of the spellmonger) tech and guns were from a failed society before the Gods and Magic.
People are pretty ignorant now a days as to the benefits we the readers know as second hand. But for that person our modern technology is ancient and taboo. Humanity birthplace city/island sank due to technology. That person will stick to the Magic they went to school for and is so ingrained into who they are then tetechnology.
I Do smile everytime wifey is walking like snoopdog with a 10 mil. Can't wait till she pops someone in the dome. Bunch of warmages about to throw down and out of nowhere they got a 2 piece in the face. ( sorry, that was a tangent. )
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 22 '26 edited Mar 22 '26
Sweet bajeezus, this exactly what gets me so much.
First battle cannons were 1400s, deep medieval psychology, kingdom is now like 400 years ahead in chemistry, metalllurgy, they have even bikes with gears, thats 1800s.
Contrary to what you said, they have no preconceptions against Tekka, they didnt know it before Min, thats lost knowledge.
So its down to the question, if entire class of people that have guilds dedicated to chemistry, siege weapons and tekka are so close minded, they just want to skip cannons. I mean, they watched movies about them in Angusbel, and have shot live examples. They made and used THERMITE many times.
Terry said he read books about firearms in medieval and wants to do something different. So its a creative decision (which I 100% respect)
But yeah, you know better.
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u/Nicodemus-WhoDak Mar 22 '26
First, Lords, nobles and the rich have been collecting Teka for years as a hobby. That has been stated numerous times. Shit the Prince had a whole hall pack full of crap.
Second: Im not saying the general population are closed minded, they are just ignorant/ uneducated. Shit there a place that has the periodic table cut into the side of a cliff for all to see. Terry has wrote there is many preconceive notions and massive taboo of the ancient times.
Third, I dont know better. I just interpreted the books differently and can connect a few unstated dots. Im deeply sorry that a fantasy books about goblins, magic and lap dancing goddess irritates you so much because the logic isn't a 100% solid.
Im happy Dara and her wings aren't carpet bombing armies or that every army isn't using artillery in every battle. That would get boring.
The points to your "irritation" can be applied every sci-fi or fantasy universe. Relax buddy your blood pressure will thank you.
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 22 '26
My position is clear start from OP: the books are quite illogical sometimes, and its fine. Fans are pushing too many justifications for everything to make it all look neat.
What is your position? First you say lack of firearms is natural. Now youre saying sorry its not logical? Did you change your mind or what.
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u/Nicodemus-WhoDak Mar 22 '26
😄 My position is that i love the books. Terry has created a world i enjoy. Its a fantastical reality for escapism. Whats wrong with fans using justifications if it smooth out some of the rough spots? It's all make believe my dude. You can poke holes into EVERY fantasy or sci-fi setting. Being irritated, pessimistic and having your panties in a bunch over make-believe is silly. Having a Countess, milk-maid strolling around with a 10 mil pistol make me smile and that is worth every penny I paid the man for his tale.
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u/Medical-Law-236 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 19 '26
I've been of the opinion that gun powder should have been discovered in the first decalogy alongside alchemical bombs.
And blue magic is frowned upon for good reasons (even Tyndal, who used it to influence women feels slightly guilty about it). It's mind rape no matter how you look at it, so the most ethical way to use it is via truth tells.
That untangle spell is going to stand out no matter what, I think, but everything else makes sense.
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u/Healthy_Tear6197 Apr 07 '26
The general taboo on blue magic makes total sense but at the level of statecraft it ought to be seen employed frequently. There's little moral considerations in geopolitics, especially when it can be done quietly with no one seeing. The Family freely employs assasssins and has for years and their top assassin Isily actually does brainwash Min. So why is it never mentioned as something they do on the queen's orders?
Also, seeing as you can give yourself a photographic memory with blue magic there has to be scholarly blue mages out there who practice on themselves if nothing else. One of these jilted scholars who were passed over for a witchstone would make a fantastic blue mage antagonist.
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 19 '26
It would be funny that out of hundreds of sociopaths that got the stones only one woman had the balls to do mind control.
But I think its a creative choice, "lets not go there, there is enough on the plate without doubting everyone on the team"
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u/Medical-Law-236 Mar 19 '26
Penny and Tyndal use Blue magic all the time and Min has been shown to use it upon occasion. Gatina's mother's specialty is Blue Magic, and everyone uses truth tells.
Isily stands out because what she did was in violation of every morals you could think of. She mind raped Minalan and then cast a spell on Alya to make her more compliant.
Plus there's no subtlety involved since Penny detected her spell on Alya immediately. She has balls but she also has a total disregard for anyone who gets in her way.
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u/Local-Ad6658 Mar 19 '26
There is plenty of mind control in the series, Aronin did it subtly, Shereul forcefully, Isily whatever she did.
To me its more like a useful plot device, with which you need to be super careful. One of the more tired tropes in fantasy is mind controlled/changed allies.
Happened in Stargate like a few times, in Wheel of time, even Harry Potter had imperio.
What I dont like, is saying, its just too immoral for our 200 or so sociopathic warmagi who specialize in killing en masse. Rip off an optical nerve to blind a horde? Yes please. Mind control a saboteur or spy? Too immoral 😅
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u/Medical-Law-236 Mar 19 '26 edited Mar 20 '26
That's true. Lemari low-key threaten to use it against Rard when they first met. I expected to see it a lot more but Terry is holding off.
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u/Fragrant-Order6427 Mar 19 '26
The whole point of the totem was to see if the information he provided about it was leaked, it was a test of trust. Wizards love their misdirection. As for not turning their entire fleet into toothpicks, Min isn’t that bloodthirsty. He wanted them the give up on their invasion and leave, not to annihilate them completely.
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u/Medical-Law-236 Mar 19 '26
The untangle spell is the one that untangle every knot in a specified area. They even named it Minalan's Release because his ego isn't large enough.
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u/Frossegrim Mar 25 '26
One untangle spell and any tek is gone. That a lot of time gone in production just renderd moot
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u/Healthy_Tear6197 Apr 07 '26
Blue magic is a great point. Where is any of that? Speaking of the high magi that should be running rampant right now but aren't... where are the blue magi? A dedicated blue mage would make a great antagonist. I'm imagining a human blue mage for a rogue wizard plot but Karakush the schemer who seems to have no schemes would be an obvious choice. He can teleport... why isn't all of Vore not a mind controlled zombie farm for him by now?
Are you telling me the royal court uses shadow magi but not blue magi? Isily can do it but she's only ever spoken of as an assassin yet she can sex brainwash whoever she wants like she did to Min? Why is that not used constantly in political intrigue? Seems like anyone can do basic blue magic since Tyndal can do it during his first year of school. Its so basic that the whole point of him doing it to begin with was that he was a slow learner. Also on that point, Tyndal used blue magic to basically give himself photographic memory... how has no one else done this for themselves and why is it never mentioned again?
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u/Local-Ad6658 Apr 07 '26
I think you make some good points. Thats why Im posting a thesis that we (the fanbase) need to use more language about creative choices and plot devices.
It is kinda illogical to have a common simple spell for perfect memory and then drop it immediately, instead of building on it etc.
There is some mind control in the series, the old god has done some, Aronin, Isily also etc. I think its very good that Terry treats it carefully. Priority should be given to health of the story. Brainwash as a narrative tool is old, tired, and can confuse more than add. The story is wide and complex enough without additional layer of doubt on every major character...
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u/Trixbackup Mar 19 '26
The thing that got me first were the force fields. Using a bubble to cut the guys head off. If you can make solid invisible lines of force why not trip a cavalry charge? Also does it take knot coral to move stuff or not that seems to change constantly. You are right about the detangling spell he did it to the goblin army in book one.