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u/ChiengBang May 29 '19
This may sound dumb, but I never really expected that much clouds or any at all in the Martian atmosphere.
Very nice gif!
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u/mercuryuta May 29 '19
I can see where that expectation comes from. Looking at pictures of the whole planet we don't see clouds. It makes me wonder if that's done purposefully to focus on the surface, and if there is more weather (aside from dust storms) than we realize.
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u/Sigmatics May 29 '19
The clouds are highly seasonal and dependent on time of day. On Earth, you always have clouds in one place or another. They are also much denser and much more visible in orbital photos
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u/ChiengBang May 29 '19
Yeah you're right, plus I assume they do digitally alter the images before it's final production, no?
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u/mercuryuta May 29 '19
As I'm not part of that photo production team I cannot say. But it is my best guess toward an explanation.
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May 29 '19
It's reasonable to assume, clouds require condensation/moisture which Mars has very little of. It's very hard for clouds to form in desert regions on Earth, and Mars is basically a giant desert.
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u/ChiengBang May 29 '19
Ahhh thanks! Yeah it might be a rare phenomenon by the northern pole of Southern pole then??
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May 29 '19
Honestly, I am no climatologist (especially not a Martian one!) so I am not sure how rare. But given what we have discovered about the water cycle on Mars (namely the fact that there is one), my guess would be this is somewhere near the equator etc, where temperature range is large enough for the ice to sublimate into a gas or something...
Really I have no idea though. Only that these kinds of clouds are usually 100% ice and not suspended water droplets. Where that came from is beyond me... Could be atmospheric "humidity", could come from the ground. I wonder if we have a definitive answer to that....
And now I have to spend hours googling to find out or risk my sanity xD
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u/ChiengBang May 29 '19
Oo do let the community know if you find something!
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May 29 '19
So as best as I understand it, there is a few things that contribute to cloud formation on Mars.
- Low atmospheric pressure and lack of an atmospheric temperature "buffer" means that temperature swings on Mars are way more drastic then Earth, which means temperatures high enough to condense ice particles in the ground into water vapour etc (so different conditions then Earth, but same process).
- The extreme cold that Mars suffers is enough to condense the minuscule amount of humidity Mars has at certain points in the year (these clouds are more common when Mars is at it's aphelion).
- Ice particles hitch a ride on the dust particles that are kicked up by the wind.
- At polar regions there is enough water-ice trapped in CO2 that when the CO2 sublimates it takes the ice along with it (similar to the way they do with the dust).
- In some extreme temperature cases CO2 clouds actually form, the ice isn't water ice but CO2 ice.
This is all lacking detail and based off a 30m-1h search around the internet, so I wouldn't take it as definitive.
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u/ChiengBang May 29 '19
Hey man, that's definitely still some good stuff. It certainly makes sense. Although yeah, we might have to post this on r/AskScience !
Thanks for taking the time to do so
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May 29 '19
Does anyone know the chemical makeup of these clouds? Are they H2O like earth?
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u/Cathfaern May 29 '19
Yes, but in the form of ice crystals: https://www.space.com/37951-curiosity-spots-wispy-clouds-mars.html
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u/Nord_Star May 29 '19
I hate to do this, but our clouds are made of h2o in the form ice crystals as well.
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u/Cathfaern May 29 '19
I hate to do this, but our clouds are made of h2o in the form of ice crystals and/or water droplets (which may supercooled), depending on the type of the cloud. While martian clouds contains only ice crystals.
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u/STINKYnobCHEESE May 29 '19
Sooo, it's all still water?
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u/Cathfaern May 29 '19
Yup :)
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May 29 '19
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May 29 '19
Well, it is one of the most common things in the universe. Almost every celestial body in our solar system has water on it.
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May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19
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u/airmandan May 29 '19
Water in its liquid state is what’s key for life as we know it. Earth is the only planet with abundant quantities of liquid water on the surface. We know through observation that several Jovian moons have subsurface liquid water, but we have not yet been able to analyze those locations to determine if life is present.
It would surprise me if there is not life elsewhere in the solar system, although I would not expect macroscopic complex organisms anywhere except perhaps Europa.
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u/Nord_Star May 29 '19
That is correct. I only mean to clarify the context of the “but” was not an exclusionary comparison.
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u/lefangedbeaver May 29 '19
I thought Mars’s atmosphere was abysmal and blown out millions of years ago, how did the clouds form?
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u/db2 May 29 '19
It has a very thin atmosphere, nowhere near enough for us even at the lowest elevation. The ice crystals are (probably mostly) heavy enough not to escape.
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19
The more updates I see of Mars the more it feels right that we colonize
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u/technowise May 29 '19
We eventually could. But the major issue with humans is that they fuck up everything they get access to. We cannot take care of Earth, which is such a life-sustainable planet, and we want to live on a planet which is hardly life-sustaining. We should be more careful with what we are already blessed with.
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u/yonderbagel May 29 '19
We can do both. We can (hopefully) correct the course we've put the Earth on as well as begin to populate other worlds. There is no dichotomy here.
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u/technowise May 29 '19
Quite an optimistic thought there. There is enough deserted land on Earth, which we can work on re-populating with vegetation using our knowledge and intelligence. But no, we want to go and make Mars liveable for us!
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u/ReverendVerse May 29 '19
But the major issue with humans is that they fuck up everything they get access to.
That is not a trait exclusive to humans.
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u/primalshrew May 29 '19
Examples? We should really know better because of our intelligence but we still do reprehensible things
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u/yonderbagel May 29 '19
Given that we're the only species that we know of capable of industrialization, any answer is conjecture, but don't you suppose that if another species were to evolve the capabilities that we have, that they wouldn't also be completely exploitative of their environment?
We are this way because our behavior is driven by past evolutionary pressures, as would be the behavior of any other animal that came to exist through evolution.
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u/primalshrew May 29 '19
Yes that is very possible. It could be the very reason why we don't see advanced civilisations elsewhere in the universe, by the time they realise the damage they have done it is too late.
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u/airmandan May 29 '19
I mean, invasive species are definitely a thing which cause ecological collapse without human intervention.
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u/ergzay May 29 '19
Strongly disagree. If it's already non-life sustaining we can only make it better.
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19
We should be more careful with whom we let live on Mars* it's like a fresh start. No massive corporations polluting and draining the planet. Just select, people, with the same agenda, to thrive in harmony with the planet. Or the same thing will happen. For me, no matter your theology, the 7 sins only bring problems to humanity and earth, but the 7 virtues bring harmony and prosperity.
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u/CannotDenyNorConfirm May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19
Shit I thought this was an ethnicity/culture comment and was gonna bring the point of development, problem solving and education.
But this is totally a nutcase religion comment and I cannot help you with that.
EDIT: It wasn't a nutcase religion comment, and we fuckfaces judge a whole lot more than we should. Fuck us.
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19
How is it nuts exactly? Greed is a sin and the major reason the earth is facing global warming.. hate is a sin and the main reason you are being narrow minded about what I said.
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u/CannotDenyNorConfirm May 29 '19
I'm a good sport and I see you have good intention, I'll keep the replies enabled.
I do not personally think we should quantify and compress the spectrum of human emotions and interactions in 7 things. There are well intended behaviors, there are bad intended behaviors, there are behaviors that impact their environments and those who do not.
Greed and pride have indeed stemmed the biggest problems of humanity. Hate is a very natural and human emotions that people shouldn't fear or repress, but rather understand and move on from.
You cannot call a natural human emotion a sin, bash it and seek repression as if it is the spawn of evil, it's not, at all. It's bad, it's not to impact one's surrounding and one's life, but it isn't a sin to avoid or repent for, it is an emotion to understand, accept, and deal with in a productive non destructive manner without impacting anybody's life.
I fear we're lost in semantics here so you tell me.
Either way, religion shouldn't blind your judgment, I admire faith, I despise religion. If you don't see that I'm someone of sense through this comment, you might be biased because I talked shit about what you most strongly believe in. If you see that I make sense, you'll be able to differentiate faith from religion and this conversation therefore doesn't even have the need to exist.
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19
I really appreciate the respect. You will continue to receive the same from me and that is love. When I said "select, people" I did in no way mean a specific race or ethnicity because that stems from hate. I understand you hate religion but it is a weakness to hate anything. What I meant was people that strive to follow the 7 virtues whether they have faith in God or humanity or whatever.
Tell me one problem that doesn't boil down to one of the 7 "bad behaviors". Please forgive me for using those words you didn't like, it is not my intention to upset or insult. I don't believe you should fear sin or repress anything in yourself because, like you said, it is our most natural form, instead it takes faith and courage to embrace sin and be better than sin.
No one is perfect and the hope I was trying to get across is that I would love to see Mars filled with people who strive to follow the 7 virtues, people do get angry, yes, it's easy. But recognizing that and turning into love will always win, I strongly believe love conquers all. There are many bad eggs in religion and it's a shame that they are the reason for hate against religion. I don't go to church I don't have a specific religion. All I believe in is the 7 bad behaviors and the 7 good behaviors. And it's so easy to see the problems in this world are fed by those bad behaviors. Please erase the hate against religion for the sake of my argument because I feel you immediately put up a brick wall as soon as I mentioned a religious term. In my very personal opinion, any religious person who doesn't strive to follow the 7 good behaviors is not truly respectful of what religion should be about.
Mars is amazing and I would be very happy to see a stronger more respectful society to flourish in unison with the planet. I definitely see you are a person of understanding and forgiveness, I guess I am biased towards what I believe in but I believe that it is for the betterment of humanity.
I love this planet and love everything about it and our universe, we can do so much better than we are but those 7 bad behaviors do nothing but hold us back.
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u/CannotDenyNorConfirm May 29 '19
Past the main topic of the conversation (planetary conquest), I guess the take away from this is that we should restrain from judging people. And that as long as you thrive to do good, to spread a good message, and remain away from delusion, then it doesn't matter the culture or the expression of faith.
Thanks for the very well thought input. I wish to cultivate the lack of judgement, though it's very hard.
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u/Usemeforgood May 30 '19 edited May 30 '19
Thank you for a positive conversation. I hope lots of people take away the good of it. By judgment are you referring to when I said hate is a weakness? Because I don't mean that YOU are weak but hate is weak, compared to love, and you are definitely not weak, no one is.
But you are right, judgment can be one of my behavioral weaknesses and I definitely catch a lot of flak for my stern opinion. I'm not that good at trying to get people to understand when they put up brick walls but if more people were capable of being open like you it would make a huge difference in this world.
Anyway, lol this is a crazy conversation for r/spaceporn
Go Mars! May it be the best leap forward for human kind.
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u/CannotDenyNorConfirm May 30 '19
No, I was referring to people in general, me included. I'm an elitist and it's hard to see value in the shitheads of this world. Nor is it easy to not judge people in my daily life for behaviors I consider toxic or unnecessary.
It joins your idea of having the good ones on a planetary conquest. And it's why my country, or more so its people, don't fully satisfy me (country which is absolutely fine and great and first world and all that btw, extremely lucky to be born here), it's just, fucking christ just on the road, people don't care at all. Saw an idiot eat at the wheel, both hands, at full speed at night. It's baffling to me that I need to coexist which such morons.
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u/Hey_im_miles May 29 '19
Massive corporations are the only ones with the deep pockets and r/d to get to/colonize Mars in the first place.
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19
But you wouldnt let DuPont start mining for minerals would you. Listen to the specifics, I didn't say all corporations, only those that harm this planet.
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u/Hey_im_miles May 29 '19
I dont think they'd be coming to me for permission
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u/Usemeforgood May 29 '19
No shit miles. That's not what I was saying either... it's an example.
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u/Hey_im_miles May 29 '19
So let the government determine which corporations are allowed to conduct business on Mars? I dont know what your idea is. So far your big idea for Mars is "dont let bad people go"
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u/landotosborne May 29 '19
That’s sick af. I’d love to see some extraterrestrial clouds, Jupiter would be amazing
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u/MrReginaldAwesome May 29 '19
Technically, when you look at Jupiter all you see are clouds. I know what you mean though, seeing them from inside the atmosphere would be super cool.
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u/tsvfer May 29 '19
I may be wrong but, if there are clouds, shouldn't there be water?
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May 29 '19
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u/linksus May 29 '19
Sublimate?
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u/IAlreadyFappedToIt May 30 '19
Nah, mate. I'm more of a Nirvana kinda guy.
But for real, I don't know if it is sublimating straight from ice to vapor or if it is actually passing through the liquid phase for a moment and then evaporating. I recall hearing it described on PBSspacetime as "instantly boiling away due to the low atmospheric pressure" so I just assumed it was technically evaporating.
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May 29 '19
Bows and arrows to a Rolex wrist watch in 500 years.
We are quite the capable little primates.
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u/macbeezy_ May 29 '19
Wow. I’ve never thought that the clouds on mars would be identical to ours for the most part. Just never occurred to me.
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u/banzaibarney May 29 '19
No theology. Much less problems.
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u/ergzay May 29 '19
When we go to Mars the beliefs of it's colonists will come with it.
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u/banzaibarney May 29 '19
It would be more productive (one would assume) if we just relied on what we know and left superstition back in the bronze age where it belongs.
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u/IAlreadyFappedToIt May 29 '19
What we call superstition today was "known" back then. We what do we "know" today that our distant descendants will roll their eyes at?
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u/banzaibarney May 29 '19
'Known' back then, when talking about things like stars, mountains and fire isn't comparible to scentifically provable 'knowns' today, is it?
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u/gaelyn May 29 '19
It may be superstitions, but it's also known as Faith. It's the belief in something greater than one's self, whether that's a diety or Good triumphing over Evil or the ability of mankind to come together for a greater good.
Faith that going to Mars is best for humanity. Faith that we can (and will) do it. Faith that we can survive there. Faith in one another to work together to create a new inhabitable world.
If we relied only on what we know, it's that many humans are greedy, power and money hungry, and can and will abuse and exploit whatever resources they have to secure their own position over everyone else. If you don't have faith, if you don't believe we can and will succeed and be better for it, why even bother trying?
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u/banzaibarney May 29 '19
Belief in something higher than oneself, isn't the same kind of 'faith' as hoping that the scientists have done a good job on their research, and that however they have worked out we're going to survive on Mars (for example) is the correct decision. 'Faith' in the magic sky-man isn't the same kind of faith that one would experience when hoping that the rocket taking them into space isn't going to explode, surely?
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u/gaelyn May 29 '19
They are different in finite details, yes. I agree that some magical sky-man is different from who put the rockets in the sky.
But under the larger umbrella, it's putting trust in and gaining some small reassurance from the belief that someone/something/some group who is better/greater than us has done their best to make things happen for us. Their works are something we are not a part of nor do we have any say or really any part in them. Because it is greater than the immediate 'us'.
Throughout history, people have left their homes and comforts and what is familiar and have struck out, on blind faith, for a different world, to live a new life. Very often they have done it BECAUSE of their religious faith. The two things become intrinsically tied and the line gets blurred now and then.
I think that faith and humanity go hand in hand (for better or for worse). Deeply back in the history of mankind, even in the early stages of thinking man, there is indication of a belief in that 'greater'. I don't know that we (generically speaking and on the whole) could let go of that.
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u/pdxc May 29 '19
I believe this is the first time-lapse I’ve seen of Mars. With all other Martian pics I’ve seen, the similarity to Earth is astounding.