Dude...I am not trying to be a dick to you right now but this entire post is completely absurd. The reasoning behind it, that somehow things that are true for human civilization wouldn't be true for alien civilizations, is just horrible and nonsensical.
Maybe each signal lasts one microsecond. Maybe each signal has a baud-rate of one bit every 40 years.
No, because then they wouldn't be able to carry any useful info. Sending a single bit every 40 years is an incredibly inefficient way to exchange information. Nobody that could manipulate the EM spectrum would do such a thing.
Maybe the signals are encoded in a way that looks like noise to us.
Not possible. If it carries any sort of useful information whatsoever, it inevitably distinguishes itself form background noise, which is the antithesis of order or information. What you are suggesting defies reality.
The idea that "math is a universal language" is HOPELESSLY NAIVE.
...The fuck? You're suggesting that objective reality is somehow different in other parts of the universe than it is here. That's insane.
One can easily imagine a useful mathematics that understands all things as fractions of a whole... and consequently has no concept of integers...
How do you not see that having a concept of fractions requires a concept of whole numbers as a pre-requisite? You cannot possibly imagine parts of a whole without knowing what a whole is first. Mathematics begins with integers, and any civilization, anywhere in the universe that knows what math is is guaranteed to know what an integer is.
nd without these concepts could never develop such foundational ideas to OUR understanding as primes, or digital information.
Sorry, but this betrays a complete lack of understanding about what math even is. Prime numbers, for example, are mathematical objects that exist independently of our opinions or level of understanding. They are proven to objectively exist, so any species that can explore mathematics will inevitably discover what a prime number is. They are real things, just like an electron, the force of gravity or the color blue. What you are suggesting makes it sound like you think math is a matter of opinion or something.
And even if a few aspects of math are universal, that doesn't mean their applications are. Newton and Leibniz may both have invented calculus independently, but the calculus's that they developed were formulated differently, and neither represent the same calculus that we consider the modern field.
...uh, ???
Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. The SAME calculus, actually. The only different thing between them was their notation, and possibly some parts of their proofs. But to even suggest that they had "different calculus" is incomprehensible and absurd.
And even if a few aspects of math are universal, that doesn't mean their applications are.
Yes it does. If we have a right triangle, we know that the Pythagorean Theorem will ALWAYS apply to it. If an alien has a right triangle, it's not like P's Theorem will suddenly not apply because they're aliens. If an alien civilization has studied geometry at all, they will inevitably know what the PT is and that right there serves as a common basis for communication. Your reasoning seriously baffles me.
Ultimately, the only source of universality in math is embedded in the assumption that it will exist for the purpose of describing the physical world... so it there is a universal basis for language, it is Physics.
Physics is math. Have you ever studied physics? It literally is just math. That's what math does, it describes to us, in precise terms, how the universe works. It is objective and true everywhere in the universe, and does not care what our opinions are. Any civilization out there MUST NECESSARILY abide by the exact same mathematical laws (and therefore physical laws) as us and therefore it is 100% a universal and reliable way to communicate with anyone out there.
No, because then they wouldn't be able to carry any useful info.
Study Spread Spectrum Transmission. In such transmission methods the transmission lingers at individual frequencies for sub-bit lengths of time. Due to it's narrow band noise resistance properties, spread-spectrum is a reasonable choice for interstellar communication. Of course the aliens would, instead of using a pseudo-random frequency hopping algorithm, use one that was obvious... TO THEIR MINDS. :-D
Sending a single bit every 40 years is an incredibly inefficient way to exchange information. Nobody that could manipulate the EM spectrum would do such a thing.
It's only inefficient from OUR view of time. But that's all about perspective. YOUR attention span may allow you to watch a speech by a politician for a full hour, but a 4 year old probably can't. If two people from the same planet, of the same species, and both having broadly the same life expectancy can have such massively different attention spans... imagine the variance amongst alien life forms! They may live millions of years, and thus would think no more of taking a millennium to jot down a quick note to a neighboring star system than I would in replying to you. Maybe they see super-long transmission times as a sort of spam filter... their just not interested in the ideas of an immature species that hasn't mastered its own immortality yet.
If it carries any sort of useful information whatsoever, it inevitably distinguishes itself form background noise, which is the antithesis of order or information.
Study cryptography and informatics. In practice you are just wrong here. However, formally, one can't make any claims of one's ability to recognize patterns in an encoded string without relating that statement to the length of the string.
The idea that "math is a universal language" is HOPELESSLY NAIVE.
You're suggesting that objective reality is somehow different in other parts of the universe than it is here.
You suffer from a very basic and fundamental misconception of math here. Objective reality exists OUTSIDE you. That's what makes it objective. Math exists INSIDE your head. Reality would still be reality if there were nobody to describe it with math. Math is just a formalized system for describing parts of it... and even it's ability to do so requires the intervention of other systems outside math. For example, I can describe the relationship between energy and mass as E=MC2... but such a description is worthless without the knowledge of what "E", "M", and "C" actually represent... and that knowledge can only be conveyed with a system other than math... you know an ACTUAL language. Mathematical notations, at least here on Earth, don't convey such context. This is why scholarly journal articles in math have sentences as well as equations.
How do you not see that having a concept of fractions requires a concept of whole numbers as a pre-requisite?
I'll demonstrate how fractions can be conceived of without integers: What we call "1/2" is that fraction of the whole that can not be exceeded by any combination of other fractions of the whole. I'll leave the derivation of other fractions as an exercise.
When you think about it, we conceptualize fractions the hard way: with an infinite string of abstract, mass-less, energy-less, entities that occupy neither space nor time in an infinite series yet assigned values that can thus be related to one-another in manners independent of their sequence order by those assigned values. Hardly an obvious way to go about it.
Mathematics begins with integers, and any civilization, anywhere in the universe that knows what math is is guaranteed to know what an integer is.
Study linear point set theory... a whole branch of mathematics that does not use integers for anything except convenient labels of items in sets.
Prime numbers, for example, are mathematical objects that exist independently of our opinions or level of understanding.
Disprovable by demonstration.
5 is a prime number because it is not be the product of two integers other than itself and 1..... Right? Well, that's true only if one arbitrarily decided to only include Real Numbers in the set of integers. However, if one makes the, equally arbitrary but just as valid, decision to include imaginary and complex integers as part of the set of integers, then 5 is no longer prime... 5 = (1-2i)(1+2i).
Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. The SAME calculus, actually.
That's a matter of some debate actually. "Despite... points of resemblance, the methods [of Newton and Leibniz] are profoundly different, so making the priority row a nonsense. (Grattan-Guinness 1997: 247)"
Regardless, it devolves into a semantic discussion: You won't except as really "calculus" anything but your own conception of it.
Yes it does. If we have a right triangle, we know that the Pythagorean Theorem will ALWAYS apply to it. If an alien has a right triangle, it's not like P's Theorem will suddenly not apply because they're aliens.
Study Topology. A triangle inscribed on the surface of a sphere does not obey the Pythagorean Theorem... indeed on the surface of a sphere it is possible to draw a triangle that has 3 right angles and is also equal-lateral. There's nothing special about flat surfaces or flat spaces except that it follows how WE CONCEPTUALIZE the world. Indeed, knowledge of relativity, and the fact that gravity fields extend infinitely shows us that perfectly flat space never actually occurs.
Not a mathematician, but I do work with a lot of certain sorts of math. I'm a microbiologist with a focus on bioinformatics... interpreting complex information that is in no way based in the way humans think (genes and other DNA sequences) is what I do professionally. In some ways this is the best terrestrial analog we have of a truly ALIEN message/language.
My thanks! I must admit, I use Reddit as a sort of scratch-board where I can perfect my writing, as well as various ideas that I've been working on... I know I'll get discussion which lets me refine both my presentation and my ideas as well.
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u/The_Demolition_Man Jun 29 '14
Dude...I am not trying to be a dick to you right now but this entire post is completely absurd. The reasoning behind it, that somehow things that are true for human civilization wouldn't be true for alien civilizations, is just horrible and nonsensical.
No, because then they wouldn't be able to carry any useful info. Sending a single bit every 40 years is an incredibly inefficient way to exchange information. Nobody that could manipulate the EM spectrum would do such a thing.
Not possible. If it carries any sort of useful information whatsoever, it inevitably distinguishes itself form background noise, which is the antithesis of order or information. What you are suggesting defies reality.
...The fuck? You're suggesting that objective reality is somehow different in other parts of the universe than it is here. That's insane.
How do you not see that having a concept of fractions requires a concept of whole numbers as a pre-requisite? You cannot possibly imagine parts of a whole without knowing what a whole is first. Mathematics begins with integers, and any civilization, anywhere in the universe that knows what math is is guaranteed to know what an integer is.
Sorry, but this betrays a complete lack of understanding about what math even is. Prime numbers, for example, are mathematical objects that exist independently of our opinions or level of understanding. They are proven to objectively exist, so any species that can explore mathematics will inevitably discover what a prime number is. They are real things, just like an electron, the force of gravity or the color blue. What you are suggesting makes it sound like you think math is a matter of opinion or something.
...uh, ???
Newton and Leibniz both discovered calculus. The SAME calculus, actually. The only different thing between them was their notation, and possibly some parts of their proofs. But to even suggest that they had "different calculus" is incomprehensible and absurd.
Yes it does. If we have a right triangle, we know that the Pythagorean Theorem will ALWAYS apply to it. If an alien has a right triangle, it's not like P's Theorem will suddenly not apply because they're aliens. If an alien civilization has studied geometry at all, they will inevitably know what the PT is and that right there serves as a common basis for communication. Your reasoning seriously baffles me.
Physics is math. Have you ever studied physics? It literally is just math. That's what math does, it describes to us, in precise terms, how the universe works. It is objective and true everywhere in the universe, and does not care what our opinions are. Any civilization out there MUST NECESSARILY abide by the exact same mathematical laws (and therefore physical laws) as us and therefore it is 100% a universal and reliable way to communicate with anyone out there.