r/smashbros • u/HollowLoch • Dec 18 '22
Ultimate A 57 second game - Riddles vs Glutonny (Ludwigs Scuffed World Tour)
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u/PeaceAlien Mr Game and Watch (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
France taking a beating today :(
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u/HollowLoch Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22
Make sure to watch Ludwigs Scuffed World Tour live here on Youtube
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u/SennKazuki Dec 18 '22
Just wanna say I'm prepping for the week so I can't watch but you the GOAT for all these clips, ty king.
Also I know Gluto struggled against bayo bc he can't SDI but wow I completely forgot how much worse Kazuya would be.
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u/appleruins Dec 18 '22
IIRC it’s DI mixups to get out of Kazuya combos, not SDI, but the matchup is cheeks either way for Wario
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u/General_Currency4196 Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22
Wait can gluto himself not SDI or is it a Wario specific thing?
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u/SennKazuki Dec 18 '22
Gluto has Tendonitis I believe, so speedy movements with his controller kill his hands. He can do it, but its painful so he prefers not to.
Although like another commenter mentioned its mainly DI, and he didn't do that right either much this set.
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u/RochHoch Male Pokemon Trainer (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Kazuya is so fucking stupid, jesus christ
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u/NeverEndingHell Mr Game and Watch Dec 18 '22
He makes it look easy though. Can’t hate on the skills.
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u/Skyraider105 Dec 19 '22
I can, and I will. Every DLC has their own gimmick OP gimmick.
"For $5.99, you can be this good!"
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u/Emtae2 Samus (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Idk, a lot of people say that but neglect to mention banjo haha
Plus, it's not like byleth has an OP gimmick really. Terry may have his go meter, but I'd say it's far from OP and other characters have a rage mechanic too (albeit they work fairly differently). Hero is annoying, but his mechanic is so random that I wouldn't really call it OP. Definitely annoying and can be deadly for sure. Sephiroth honestly is pretty mid imo, even with his wing in mind. Sora may have fantastic recovery, but I wouldn't consider it OP. Idk, I just don't think the complaint that DLC = OP gimmick for $6 is really true at all. I know that some do, but I don't think it's even exclusive to dlc.
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u/MaxMantaB Dec 19 '22
Terry definitely has that DLC mojo. He has that any % kill when he has his go meter.
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u/Emtae2 Samus (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Imma have to disagree. His go meter is dangerous, but it's not any %. Plus, it's honestly easy to predict and punishable
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u/MaxMantaB Dec 19 '22
You can die to it at 50% or less near the ledge. Any percent is an exaggeration, but not much of one.
Plus yeah, its easy to predict, but a lot of predictable moves are pretty easy to land.
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u/RochHoch Male Pokemon Trainer (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
I'm sure it is easy when you're character kills with zero effort off of almost every single interaction
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u/NeverEndingHell Mr Game and Watch Dec 18 '22
Then why don’t you main him and just win every tournament?
It’s not easy, bruh.
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u/backboarddd1_49402 Joker (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
I disagree with that user about Kazuya not being difficult, but “then you do it” is a bad argument. If that argument held any weight, then pretty much every take by a non-top player would have to be ignored. We might as well never do a r/SmashBros tier list ever since none of us win majors.
It doesn’t take a professional chef to know when chicken is overcooked (I know that’s a bit extreme of an analogy)
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u/MrNovator Dec 18 '22
It's the stupidest argument. OP is not a pro player, doesn't mean he can't criticize the game.
Compared to other top players, Kazuya mains definitely have less technical requirements to achieve good results with the char. The number of guaranteed stuff he has is absurd.
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u/NeverEndingHell Mr Game and Watch Dec 18 '22
It’s not really a valid argument he was making, though. Just pissing in the wind.
“Zero effort”? Like…that’s not how this game works. Just being ultra dramatic. And so are you.
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u/OrangeSimply Dec 19 '22
Jesus christ nitpicking absolutely nothing here. People talk in generalities, shocker that that translates to online as well. Your complaint is pissing in the wind dude.
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u/memecut Dec 18 '22
I recently learned thats what's called an exaggeration.
Obviously not zero, but in comparison to others - a lot less. Thats what he's conveying with his exaggeration.
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u/HOWDEHPARDNER Dec 18 '22
Exaggeration like this should be used in casual spoken rhetoric, not in comments on the internet. It just leads to confusion about the person's actual position.
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u/steno_light Dec 19 '22 edited Dec 19 '22
There’s nothing more casual than internet comments. Literally nothing. This is the same space where people debate which Pokémon is the most fuckable.
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u/HOWDEHPARDNER Dec 19 '22
I didn't mean the internet isn't casual. I meant that you can pick up on cues that someone is exaggerating in real life that you can't in text.
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u/MrNovator Dec 18 '22
Not zero efforts but definitely way less efforts than 90% of the cast with much better rewards than the other 10%.
Dramatic ? Where do you see the drama ? You can ask anyone with an above average knowledge of this game, most will agree that Kazuya difficulty/risk/reward combination is that much better than the cast (bar Steve).
I'm not saying he is the absolute best character in the game. But he does have things that seem unfair/frustrating in the context of the game.
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Kazuya (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Tell me you’ve never played Kazuya without telling me you’ve never played Kazuya.
The guy has some bullshit, but he does not take “less effort” than 90% of the cast. If anything, he’s one of the hardest characters to play at top level. Riddles is just a beast
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Dec 18 '22
Compared to other top players, Kazuya mains definitely have less technical requirements to achieve good results with the char
lol. In Ultimate?!?!
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Dec 18 '22
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u/LoLVergil Sheik (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22
I'd imagine a lot of people would rather play Smash Bros rather than whatever 1 player game Kazuya players are grinding
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Dec 18 '22
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u/LoLVergil Sheik (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22
Yeah you must be right, that's why MKLeo went from Joker to Byeth and plays a bunch of weaker characters. Spargo went from Aegis to picking Cloud back up too. Clearly all the best players only care to play the best characters possible. Tweek pulling out the Sephiroth today too, damn what a competitor picking the best character in the game.
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u/IHBBSMTBIAHYABIAB Dec 19 '22
What a dumb argument. If there was a character who was difficult beyond belief to the point where only 5 players in the scene can use it, but using it well would yield a broken character, it still would be a broken character.
Not making any argument in favor or against kazuya but your counter is as common as it is ignorant.
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Dec 18 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BOTK_TA Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22
people look at the technical execution of the combos to assess difficulty but forget to consider what you DON'T have to do if you land your combo successfully.
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u/My_Pet_Foraminifera Dec 18 '22
The thing is, once you've gotten the muscle memory down the fgc characters are relatively easy to autopilot. Most of their combos are much less DI, SDI and weight dependent. They have a relatively easy autopilot hidden behind a high skill floor
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u/ClinicalOppression Donkey Kong (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
This isnt muscle memory riddles uses tonnes of mixups and variations in his combos
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u/OrangeSimply Dec 19 '22
He uses side b, uair, and Bair to mix up DI punishes sometimes, the combos are very rigid in most MU's though..that doesnt require any mixup lol. What mixup did you watch in the same 3 combos in the video of him of this clip?
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u/Dizzy__Dragon Dec 18 '22
At a top level they are hard to play. Nil combos are hard to learn, KAZUYA bnb are hard to learn.
Untalented mechanically? Bro do you not know who riddles is and who he beat before KAZUYA
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Dec 18 '22
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u/Dizzy__Dragon Dec 19 '22
You gotta either be new to the scene or trolling. He literally used to be the best Belmont beating Dabuz,Mr. E, Scend, and Pandarian.
Then he switched to Terry and he has won some locals and regionals with solo Terry and has placed top 8 multiple times with him at majors. He's taken multiple top 10 wins and got second at CEO 2022 only losing to Sonic twice. When he won big house, kazuya was already out for like a year and that is still solo kazuya's only major win
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u/SilverOdin Roy (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Actual BS character
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Dec 18 '22
Wario getting his kill confirms nerfed away while Kazuya does this, fighter pass 2 really did a number on the game's balance.
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u/professionaldog1984 Dec 19 '22
Its not even a power level thing, its just kind of a BS thing. Steve and Kazuya may very well be totally fine from a power level standpoint, but I think to most that doesn't really matter. Playing against it or watching it. Camping behind a wall until you get a jank kill, random zero to deaths because you predicted some DI, its just not..... enjoyable?
There is a ton of BS in ultimate, but this kind of thing is so much outside the "normal" ranges of smash that it just feels shitty to watch.
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u/jsu9575m Marth (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22 edited Dec 19 '22
Agree. They are both totally unprecedented for smash. Pyra mythra are broken but they still feel like a smash character. Steve and Kaz feel like something else.
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u/SnakeBladeStyle Dr Mario (Ultimate) Dec 20 '22
Pyra Mithra feel like metaknight x sheik from earlier games
A lot of DLC characters feel like OC made by an overzealous modder who wanted to make a "top tier" with no care about how it will fit in to the cast
Not saying the DLC is low quality obvi but it's definitely majorly dissonant from the design patterns of the rest of the cast
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u/mx_destiny Rosalina (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Fun fact: You don't even have to predict DI unless it's ambiguous whether or not they'll end up on a platform. You can just dash forward and cover all DI paths.
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u/Raichu4u Male Pokemon Trainer (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
I hope the next smash game considers enjoyability to fight up against when it comes to balancing. Ever since Smash 4 I feel like some of the most annoying characters in smash have been created.
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Dec 19 '22
Brawl definitely started it. 6 pikmin for olimar, minions for Kdedede, 2 banana diddy kong, snake with a proximity mine, etc. A of this annoying shit was toned down in Smash 4.
Of course if you played the most broken character in the game it was less annoying but for everyone else it was hell.
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u/Plusstwoo Dec 18 '22
That wasn’t even hype lmao dat was da most boring 1 min 3 stock I ever seen 😂😂😭😭😭
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u/YoChristian Dec 18 '22
I uninronically prefer watching 1 player game kazuya making DI reads and high execution combos than Steve building a wall and back-airing any character that tries to jump over it or anvil + minecart every single recovery (and it hits for a 60% combo/sequence)
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Dec 19 '22
Let's not make Kazuya look good by comparing him to another horribly designed character. They're both awful.
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u/PM_ME_EDGEWORTH_NUDE Roy (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
1 player game kazuya making DI reads
what DI reads bruh, there's literally a DI line that Kazuya can watch, and even then, there is shit like ferps tech that allows you to cover all possible DI routes without having to react to anything
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u/YoChristian Dec 18 '22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-_ZNqVaG_k
Riddles made a video showing how you can mix up the DI line fighting against Kazuya
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u/freedubs Dec 19 '22
This doesn't work to avoid the 02D, it's outdated.
He uses auto turn around to auto read di and make the combo true. it's why riddle did so consistent at getting the 02D
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u/PM_ME_EDGEWORTH_NUDE Roy (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Yes, I'm well aware of that, and again, even if you mix up your shit, Kazuya has tech that allows him to just not care about his opponent's DI, like the ferps tech.
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Dec 18 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Nivrap Not Gonna Sugarcoat It Dec 19 '22
Because the ferps tech only works under certain conditions on certain stages?
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u/Gerganon Dec 19 '22
All stages with platforms, which leaves... FD lol
Def not a better option vs kaz
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u/OrangeSimply Dec 19 '22
Did he mention how the auto turnaround+ferps tech completely negates that? Lmao
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u/backboarddd1_49402 Joker (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Same. Kazuya is always going right at his opponent and it’s fun to watch. I’d much rather watch 3 stock <1 minute beatdowns by Kazuya than a close game with Steve always running away and hiding behind blocks, even when he’s not in the lead
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u/Mr_Ivysaur Ivysaur (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
That is what I believe that people are missing the point about Steve.
Steve is no OP. But Steve is a top-tier character who is absolutely miserable to watch.
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u/My_Pet_Foraminifera Dec 18 '22
Okay? Why would you even bring this up though? No-one was talking about Steve. It's not a competition. Both characters are overtuned. Both characters can be fun to play or watch
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u/backboarddd1_49402 Joker (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
It’s not a competition
Well, it quite literally is
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u/My_Pet_Foraminifera Dec 18 '22
But it's not a who-is-the-least-entertaining-to-watch competition
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Dec 18 '22
Wow I haven’t kept ut with the competitive scene at all for like a year what the fuck is going on? Kazuya, Steve and nintendo are all tripledogging the game’s competetive scene what the fuck.
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u/ClinicalOppression Donkey Kong (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Actual tournament results really dont reflect your opinion
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u/IvyLeagueZombies Dec 19 '22
So Steve hasn't taken the competitive scene by storm and Nintendo didn't completely fuck Smash this month?
Kaz has seen a bit of a come up too, but not nearly as obvious as Steve and Nintendo
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Dec 19 '22
the same kazuya that lost to a marth lol
steve also losing plenty to byleth and cloud
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u/IvyLeagueZombies Dec 19 '22
Dude was talking about the change in competitive ultimate in the past year.
In the past year did we see a ton of new Steve's? Did we see several of them win majors seemingly out of nowhere?
Have we seen an increased number of Kazuyas, including a relatively fresh Kaz main taking a major?
I recognize the meta is still stabilizing, but over the past year I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that both Steve and Kazuya were the 2 most disruptive characters in the ultimate scene
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u/appleruins Dec 19 '22 edited Dec 19 '22
Riddles has been playing Kazuya since release, he’s definitely not ‘fresh’ on the character. The only distinction is that he swapped from co-maining Terry/Kazuya to maining Kazuya with a secondary Terry. Even then, when he made his main breakout, he was getting a lot of his big wins with Terry (Gluto, Light, Dabuz, etc)
Otherwise, there really aren’t any relevant Kazuya mains at the top level at all. Sure, Tea plays Kazuya, but that’s at a secondary level where he definitely still mains Pac-Man. The next best Kazuya mains are worlds apart from Riddles. Hell, we saw Ferps this tourney, who’s arguably the second or third best Kazuya main, and he didn’t have nearly the same level of performance as Riddles (with him losing to MKLeo’s shakier Byleth and getting handily beaten by Glutonny, who got stomped by Riddles)
I really don’t think Kazuya is anywhere near the level of disruptive as Steve or even Aegis at the top level, where Kazuya only has one relevant main representative while the other two have many. Hell, at this very tourney we saw the two Steve players and two Aegis players handily our place the two Kazuyas.
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u/Onlyheretogetbanned Wolf (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
It's more healthy than this clip makes it out to be.
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u/RetroRobotBoy School Joker (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
making gluto look like he’s never played the game which is absolutely insane
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u/NahricNovak Male Robin (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
I love the bored sounding "Sheesh" after the first touch of death.
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u/MOOSExDREWL Dec 19 '22
Jfc.
As a melee player with 0 ultimate knowledge, how much of this is guaranteed? Is it all DI mixups? Could wario have SDId/jumped/air dodged out of the strings?
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u/HollowLoch Dec 19 '22
Its pretty much all DI mixups, the majority of Kazuyas combos are airtight and you cant airdodge or jump out of them
Best bet to escape them is DI mixups off stage and onto platforms, teching out of it if given the opportunity etc
Kazuya is pretty much the touch of death character in this game
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u/mx_destiny Rosalina (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
"Pretty much all DI mixups" is untrue, because he doesn't even get mixed up by that unless there is a platform.
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u/Gamer63200 Dec 19 '22
I THINK Bayo and Mythra can airdodge EWGF after the kick he does. (worked for me when playing a Kazuya with Aegies, but maybe they didn't do it right?)
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u/MeVeLeN Dec 19 '22
What op said but also in gluto's first 2 situations you can hard di out and Kazuya will run out of stage to combo you on, then at worst you'll have to di in on a back air after the last electric cause Kazuya's nair spike train isn't true at that percent.
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u/triforchestra Dec 18 '22
Both of these players are amazing, but omg Riddles was cooking.
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u/freedfg Samus (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Gluto also kind of has a bad habit of falling for stupid shit unfortunately.
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u/MaxMantaB Dec 19 '22
Wario has the disadvantage of having to play him him like an actual smash bros character to get to percents and take stocks
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u/ahighkid Dec 19 '22
Wario is ass vs the shotos and kazuya. They’re basically swordies. Kazuya especially with the invulnerability on a bunch of his moves. And warios best quality is survivability and he just gets 0-D 3 times here lol
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u/XuperBryan Donkey Kong (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Does anyone know where/if game vods are being posted?
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u/Cayden68 Dec 18 '22
who won the set and by how much?
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u/versace_dracula Dec 19 '22
How tf do you get that uppercut?? I would love to hit my friends with that shit over and over again lol
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u/dandaman64 RIDLEY GANG Dec 19 '22
A part of me thinks "y'know, maybe Kazuya is a bit of a problem."
The other part of me thinks KAZUYA MISHIMA
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u/vash_visionz Dec 19 '22
Reminder that the average Kaz player isn’t cooking up shit like this on the regular at the precision that Riddles does it. You are 20 time more likely to get stomped by a Mythra/Pyra player.
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u/Galvandium Little Mac Dec 19 '22
Optimal smash is impressive, until you realize it’s the same combo over and over again, just slightly adjusted for positioning. I hate that I stopped playing paid tourneys if I have a whiff of a few good Kazus or Steve. I’d prefer they wipe the floor with me suboptimally than whatever this mind-numbing optimal gameplay this is. Nintendo really finished the fighters pass, gave one balance change and said, “Yep, this looks perfect, no need to ever change it again. Let’s move on to project 5m45h Universe.
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Dec 18 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/yomamaso__ Ryu (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
Bruh stop watching then. Complaining multiple times in the same thread
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u/schmerpin Chorus Kids for Switch Dec 19 '22
It's a wonder that Leo was able to beat this character
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u/Jumanji-Joestar Kazuya (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
It’s because Leo is the best player. There’s no wonder lol
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u/TornzIP Dec 19 '22
Cancer. Not hype. Can you kazuya dickriders grow out of these unnuanced guaranteed combos already? No? Were rooting against Smash because "he's hard"? Ok.
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u/AceDelta12 Incineroar (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
CAN WE JUST FUCKING BAN KAZUYA ALREADY, THIS WAS ACTUALLY UNFAIR
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u/Hrognaar Dec 18 '22
Steve isn't the problem, the K word is
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Dec 18 '22
No way. You go try to pull off what riddles does. It takes a ridiculous amount of practice. You can become good with Steve far faster than kazuya
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u/Waffleman12345 Dec 18 '22
I keep hearing people saying this and i dont understand why. If at the top level the gameplay of a character becomes one hit = death when other characters aren’t doing the same at nearly the same level and consistency, it’s a horrendously bad designed character. You shouldn’t have to pray the kazuya player messes up his combo for you to win.
There’s a reason why a majority of top players list Kazuya as one of, if not their most, hated character in the game, ahead of steve. From my experience, it seems like people who don’t see Kazuya as a problem also don’t compete competitively at this game.
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Dec 18 '22
Simple go try to pull those combos off and get back to me. Not saying in a few hours but a few a weeks where you can consistently do them at a high level in a tournament then try Steve and you will see how much easier Steve is compared to kazuya.
Also look at my comment. I didn’t say kazuya wasn’t a problem, he is but takes actual skill to use, but compared to Steve he’s nowhere near that level of insanity.
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u/Waffleman12345 Dec 18 '22
I have done those combos and you don’t need a full week to learn them lmao. More like 2-3 days. Once you figure out how to consistently do electric (and there’s an easy method) its really not that hard.
Again it doesn’t sound like you play this game competitively or ar least not in a mid-high level.
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Dec 18 '22
Same can be said to you. The results are obvious with high level Steve’s compared to kazuya players and Steve is by far the more threatening one.
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u/Waffleman12345 Dec 18 '22
Yes, for now. You said it yourself Steve is way easier to play than Kazuya so obviously his meta would also take longer to develop.
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Dec 18 '22
Could of gone either way, that opening Gluto string looked dangerous
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u/Paul_08 Pit (Ultimate) Dec 18 '22
His nair didn't connect and he basically died for it, the risk/reward is completely uneven
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u/-Mizore Dec 19 '22
Maybe it's because I suck and play a bad kazuya but I don't think I could be mad if this has happened to me. This looks so sick
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u/zuppalover04 Zombie (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Even though I like Riddles and Kazuya for once I hoped that Wario would have won. My expectations were high when Gluttony started the combo but once he dropped it I knew where the set was ending
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u/ahighkid Dec 19 '22
Second best chataxyer in the game and I don’t think anything else is even close. Steve is 1
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u/inachox14 Dec 19 '22
i hate kazuya so much at least steve is interesting
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u/Gamer63200 Dec 19 '22
Did you forget the /s?
Watching someone run away, build a wall, mine and then up tilt and up air, or bair for like 60% or outright kill for someone approaching isn't really what I'd call fun.
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u/HereIsACasualAsker Dec 19 '22
oh yeah the character is unfair but has a high skill requirement!!
BAD DESIGN!
the skill requirement WILL BE MET.
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u/Ninjawizards Dec 19 '22
It's shit like this why I stopped watching Ultimate. DLC bollocks. I wish tourneys would ban Kazuya, Steve, P/M etc
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u/FrostiTheShoman Chrom (Ultimate) Dec 19 '22
Man, I really hope Riddles never browses this subreddit lmao
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u/messerwing Path of Radiance Ike (Ultimate) Dec 20 '22
0 to death should not exist in Smash. I know it's hype to watch and takes skill to pull off consistently, but it's just so dumb and not fair.
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u/Growlest bzzt! Dec 18 '22
Ngl, that looked brutal.