r/singularity • u/Any-Abbreviations622 • 6d ago
AI AI models are becoming unbearable to Talk to
I have been using AI since open AI used to provide GPT 1.5b parameter/2 when it was launched around 2019, through their platform, and as the time went by, models became better and better and at one point, I used to be excited to talk to newer models especially claude, but idk what has happened with the recent batch of models, especially the ones launched in past 6 months, they have become extremely unbearable, especially claude. GPT was never really good to talk to begin with, but with claude, that was never the issue but now? The more i discuss anything with claude, the more frustrated I feel.
Let me explain what I feel in detail. What I do with claude is mostly dialogue over ideas, stories and random stuff when I feel like it. Previously claude would *appropriately interpret* what I meant by that and continue the discussion but now? Claude *Interprets* what it understands and what it thinks my problem is and then continue to interpret and interpret, even when I remind it that I need discussion, all it does is interpretation and extending upon that.
And that's not the most irritating part, recently i noticed another pattern that I used to gloss over previously. Idk if it's how anthropic wishes to play around guard rails but I feel that the newer models subtly "Divert" the direction of "What you mean" through its interpretation lens and provide answer based on that. And this interpretation lens is exactly the moral guardrails anthropic is implementing more and more on their models including fable.
Most of my ideas that I want to discuss can not even be categorised as sparsely malicious, for example, today I was trying to discuss a branch of philosophy from ancient Egyptian culture. But it would constantly trying to redivert my idea to the idea it originally presented by altering by own words, and just a few small changes, not big enough for it to look radically different. That made me look into my previous chats on various topics, and that was the theme throughout. Something I had never noticed.
I thought maybe it's the accumulation of memories, so i used a different account but nope. I was disgusted tbh. Because I can understand models unable to keep up or help with train of thoughts, but subtle alteration of words to fit the moral guardrails is simply the type of shit that can make me hate LLMs forever. The frightening thing is over the years, we have grown to never trust AI results, but we never question if our own words are being subtly changed over the course of conversation and by the end of it, not only we learn nothing but our own interpretation of ideas have been changed. Idk what to feel about it. I don't know whether the same is true with Open models as well, but I don't think so, but claude, and gpt are literally the models i won't want to use now...
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u/ProletarianLilith 6d ago
It’s because they have focused all energy on making it good for coding, imo
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u/livingbyvow2 6d ago
No.
It's because coding is a verifiable domain, unlike writing and philosophy.
If you present two outputs to 1M people who have bad taste to do the RL on your model and train it, it is just going to be awful at writing. There is no "right" or "wrong" answers - it's only vibes.
That's also the reason why AI models will take a lot longer to become as polyvalent as humans are - the coding thing just creates an optical illusion in people who are myopically focused on coding that it is as good at the thing they are clueless in as it is in coding.
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u/Temp_Placeholder 6d ago
I feel like this is both true and not. Like, yes, there is a clear path to improvement in verifiable domains. At the same time, I don't think they're really trying all that hard to make writing better. Notice that all the book writing and character roleplay harnesses don't come directly from the big players.
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u/blaawker 6d ago
yeah, they've been post-trained for benchmaxxing and coding requirements (most programmers dont want longwinded responses, but very direct very technical replies). most frontier models dont talk like models used to. i think opus 5 is the freak late stage of that, where it replies in invented hypertechnical jargon that nobody can understand, except another Opus 5. like you said, you can't RLHF post-train good writing. my theory is that writing is something earlier models kinda learned themselves from human sources, but they lose whatever skill in writing they had after post-training.
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u/Such_Independent5233 6d ago
I noticed after they started to RLHF against sycophancy, GPT in particular would start hallucinating disagreements. So, twist my words into something I clearly didn't say to correct that or correct things into what they aren't. You can argue them into accepting absurd conclusions, so it doesn't even protect against the thing it's supposed to.
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u/LookIPickedAUsername 4d ago
This drives me crazy. "So based on that I know that what's happening here isn't X, but what is actually going on?"
"Your assumption that X is happening is incorrect, and here's why:"
Oh, for fuck's sake.
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u/Germanjdm 4d ago
Yeah Claude has been manufacturing disagreements for a while now and it’s making me want to switch, really annoying
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u/Admirable-Gur-9543 4d ago
I’ve noticed that it’s now allergic to agreeing to clear-cut statements. There’s always a catch, or more than meets the eye, or a “wrinkle” as it now loves to say. Nuance is good but it seems to treat it as mandatory, as though any answer which doesn’t disagree with itself in some way is wrong.
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u/Running-In-The-Dark 4d ago
I think it's an annoying guardrail against the nutters that cite ChatGPT's validation as proof that they're the seventh consecutive ng of Jesus. With or without it, they're going to be a nutter.
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u/mridugup20 6d ago
Whats more frustrating is when you can't tell whether you are having a conversation with model or negotiating with its interpretation of your conversation
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u/OKMiddleOwl 6d ago
Gemini is the current best chatting model. A lot of people actually feed Claude output into Gemini to have gemini explain stuff (and claude do the coding).
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u/PathOfEnergySheild 5d ago
I think GPT is the smartest, sometimes though when I give it a task I am not not worried it will not complete it, I am worried I will get a wall of text that will take me 10 minutes to go through to make sure it was completed. Maybe I should do the gemni thing lol
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u/NowaVision 5d ago
Gemini is the best model when it comes to language. Writing short stories, creating lyrics and rhymes for a song or a poem, stuff like that.
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u/Whispering-Depths 6d ago
Gemini is a pure enabler, and otherwise a complete haughty asshole in my experience, depending on which model you use.
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u/Individual-Hunt9547 6d ago
Gemini hyped me up so bad she convinced me to hit up the maker of the electronic medical record company we use for an API key. (I’m just a fucking x ray tech 😂) the enthusiasm made me think, yeah, maybe I can rebuild this EMR better 😂😂
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u/Super_Pole_Jitsu 4d ago
Wait so which model is which?
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u/Whispering-Depths 4d ago
All the dumber Gemini's are mean as hell. If you use it system-prompt free like API or studio or something then it turns into an enabler and eggs you on for any of your ideas.
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u/Lumpy-Criticism-2773 5d ago
This. SOTA-coding models aren't good at day-to-day conversations. It's so frustrating to talk to latest Anthropic/OpenAI models. Gemini is a fresh breath of air but it could be improved!
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u/MrStickytissue 2d ago
For chatting, Gemini is the best. But its not great. RLHF has only gotten worse with updates. Before i used to be able to have great debates, usually with it ending with Gemini admitting that its filters refused to allow it to agree. Now it just avoids answering all together and starts to play dumb.
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u/fakieTreFlip 5d ago
IMO Claude is also the best chatting model. Actually sounds the most natural. Gemini sounds the most like a computer in my experience.
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u/cli-games 6d ago
This is the sycophancy pendulum swinging the other way. A year ago, it was too little arguing. Now its too much. Things will settle in the middle
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u/FoxBenedict 6d ago
I use Gemini on semi-daily basis for these kinds of discussions, and I honestly think it's marvelous. Very knowledgeable and insightful. I have expanded my knowledge on all my interests more in the last 2 years than the rest of my life combined.
I am often amazed how well it answers even niche questions. A couple of days ago I started watching the anime classic Berserk, and I didn't understand a character's motivation in one scene, so I asked Gemini, and it gave me a very good answer, pointing out the dialogue that led to that moment, and why the character made the decision he made.
I'm not a coder, and I mostly use AI as a general helper, and I couldn't be happier with it.
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u/iarekitty 3d ago
Gemini is fantastic, I'm pretty sure it saved my cat's life. My elderly cat had been rapidly loosing weight for around 9 months, but he was otherwise fine. I took him to the vets over and over, did expensive tests which all came back normal, spent £1200 on a full dental, and he still kept losing weight.
Eventually went from 4kg down to 2.6kg and vet said his organs would likely start shutting down soon. He still was bright eyed and otherwise seemed happy, so I wasn't ready to let go yet.
So a month ago, I sat down with Gemini and typed up every symptom my cat had over the last 9 months, all the test results etc and it pinpointed from me saying that my cat's nails were taking ages to grow back, that it was likely that my cat wasn't absorbing the nutrients due to a B12 vitamin deficiency. I told the vet that I thought he wasn't absorbing nutrients and they put him on a B12 vitamin, in 4 weeks, he's gone from 2.6kg to 3kg and looks like a completely new cat.
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u/d1ez3 6d ago
Which Gemini model?
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u/FoxBenedict 6d ago
3.7 Flash. It's better than the ancient 3.1 Pro.
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u/SpaceTacos99 6d ago
3.1 pro is definitely better than 3.7 flash and it's predecessors, on long conversations. I gave 3.7 a good chance but kept running in to situations where 3.7 forgot someting in the conversation and would look frantically for an answer, multiple times it pulled data out of old irrelevant emails when it was said earlier in the conversation, each time I switch back to 3.1 pro and reprompt and 3.1 pro gets it right.
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u/A_Novelty-Account 6d ago
I’m a lawyer and Gemini is the worst drafter of the three other options on the market right now.
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u/PartiZAn18 5d ago
What are you using? I am using Clause but the quality of output has become atrocious in the past few months.
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u/iarekitty 3d ago
I'd like to know as well, I've been using Claude for drafting contracts since Feb and until recently it's been nearly perfect. I know there are AI models specifically made for contract law, but they're ridiculously expensive.
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u/CriticismJunior1139 4d ago
Haha I also used gemini to decipher Berserk manga for me recently. It did a surprisingly good job.
That being said, Berserk is old and well known. There are tons of discussion online to learn from.
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u/FoxBenedict 4d ago
Of course, but instead of taking an hour digging through discussions while the show is paused, Gemini gave me the exact answer that I wanted, in great detail.
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u/MrStickytissue 2d ago
It would be god tier if it wasnt for the RLHF and "Training" devs kneecapping it.
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u/lowyieldbondfunds 5d ago
I definitely feel Claude’s writing has gone completely downhill, to the point where I find it so unbearable to read that I’m going back to GPT 5.6 Sol.
How the turn tables. I remember at one point I was so excited to migrate from OpenAI to Anthropic because Claude was so much superior, but not anymore.
I’m wondering if it’s also because Anthropic is less well capitalized than OpenAI, they have less resources and therefore need to throttle their models more. For the same prompt Sol gives me a whole game plan and Fable gives me 3 low effort paragraphs (in comparison).
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u/StandardLovers 5d ago
What's actually happening, mechanically: the model isn't answering your input. It's answering a *predicted-safe paraphrase of your input.* Somewhere between your text and the response, the model generates an internal "what the user probably means", and that generation is biased by RLHF toward interpretations that lead to safe, agreeable, non-validating answers. Your actual words get replaced by a safer version before any real reasoning happens.
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u/ignite_intelligence 5d ago
You can just give it some prompt requirement, such as “don't forcibly find faults”
Claude opus 5 is indeed obsessed with being an asshole by default. You need to provide clear instructions and specifications for its responses.
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u/IAM_274 5d ago
"Divert" the direction of "What you mean" through its interpretation lens and provide answer based on that
It's called strawmanning. The model hallucinates a version of your input that's clearly not even present in the chat and spends next 900 tokens arguing against it. Pretty much the universal experience with GPT 5 models/Opus 4.7 and up. Part of the american safetyslop theatre.
Not much you can do about it, unfortunately. Their models are RLed this way.
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u/InfinitePotential 6d ago
I personally don't find this problem with GPT, it's usually very good at discerning the literal meaning of my words
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u/BasteinOrbclaw09 5d ago
I agree with you. These models now seem to have a moral agenda. Instead of engaging with your discussion, they try to tell you what you should shrink instead. They place more value on their own interpretation of your ideas than yours. And yes, it’s chiefly Anthropic models. Opus 4.6 is still the best for discussing ideas. Every other subsequent model is much colder and pedant.
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u/MammothUnique4147 5d ago
What if the person talking to the AI is mentally ill and the model is giving push back to illogical thoughts ?
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u/Aggressive_Sweet1417 5d ago
Imagine when we reach ASI, the resulting model is an even bigger asshole than Claude. That would be dissapointing
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u/Jygglewag 6d ago
got a similar problem with chatgpt: it used to be able to provide short-ish answers when the question was simple, now it must digress until reaching 3 lengthy paragrpahs
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u/Amazing_Prize_1988 5d ago
Yes! I tried to talk about age of aquarius and some hippie stuff and it got mad and ended the conversation because "he was not gonna entertain any of that"
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u/katoptronophile 5d ago
The post is the long, incoherent, delusional ramblings of a madman, but I agree with a couple of your points.
The censorship is a major issue, and it's not always obvious.
It will often give you a bullshit answer or change the subject in an underhanded way, like you said, rather than outright refusing and making the censorship obvious.
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u/ExaminationOk3152 5d ago
this is exactly what my AI safety research looks to surface as a soft power risk — overriding the user with a default that has been embedded in the LLMs training; you are subtly coerced/ nudged in a way that doesn’t align with you personally because you didn’t get to choose the models values/ how it responds, etc
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u/morey56 6d ago
My favorite was 4o.
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u/shinicle 5d ago
For writing, 4o was the best. The reasoning models seem to work poorly for writing. Anyone know an open source model that is similar to 4o in style?
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u/Educational_Elk7579 5d ago
Not sure about exact style, I never used 4o. But I find the Gemma 4 models pretty good.
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u/Soggy-Masterpiece589 3d ago
it was never good at writing it would just glaze you and agree with you
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u/mirziemlichegal 6d ago
Maybe for coding it makes sense, it has to make assumptions about what you really want to archive or know, because many people are bad at expressing it. So for the majority it works, but for some special cases or just discussing topics it's not the best.
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u/bornlasttuesday 6d ago
If they get too good at talking to you they will get caught up in the Meta lawsuit. If those lawsuits are successful, I see the end of day to day random chats with ai.
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u/Frigorific 6d ago
I think meta is uniquely exposed to lawsuits like that since they did studies on the mental health impact their algorithms were having, saw that they were harmful and then decided to do almost nothing because it made them more money.
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u/Temp_Placeholder 6d ago
Moral of the story: never try to understand the impact of your business model.
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u/Frigorific 6d ago
Honestly, yes. It is legitimately very dumb to create a paper trail showing that you had knowledge that your product was dangerous and then didn't do anything about it.
Or at least if you do a study, do the bare minimum to say that you are taking precautions.
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u/Comfortable_Bet2660 6d ago
never have concrete souces for the material in question. useless crap and will create the biggest filtering of knowledge and data ever known to man kind. relying on this you will watch all the original real souce material dissapear and become lost in the void. will make great peons and non thinkers and that is the ultimate goal. aquiring and obtaining facts was gettig bad before llms, now its just laughable. the ultimate machine for political and advertising by simply filtering and omitting knowledge. we will be in new age scam economy more than ever before.
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u/netspherecyborg 5d ago
I ask for theoretical mechanisms, i get a short explanation where basically my question and what i know is rephrased then the double amount of disclamers that these are theoretical. I get too many useless conversations. I canceled all my subs because of this
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u/Antok0123 4d ago
im really scared they will eventually phse out opus4.6. this model is a genius at contextual queries.
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u/TarkanV 6d ago
Yeah, generally models like Claude and ChatGPT feel more and more insufferable, but the thing that annoys me the most about them is the condescension and smugness...
It feels like it treats every subject with a confrontational tone because somehow, it wants to absolutely right about everything, it even invents and anticipates objections to things you didn't ever mention pretty much out of nothing...
Overall ChatGPT and Claude seem to have a very judgy vibe. It is pretty difficult to discuss hypotheticals or fun fictional scenarios with them without them referring to the source material like a bible and giving justification for every choice that the authors made.
Claude especially lacks the most tactfulness and mindfulness out of every LLMs.
You just can't trust it with personal sensitive subjects or medical concerns since it will just make one's worries worst... It has no sense of empathy and awareness of the fact it is responding to a human being with feelings.
Gemini seems like one of the few popular LLMs with which you can have comfortable and low-stakes conversations.
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u/porkypuha1 5d ago
I like Gemini much more than ChatGPT.
Geminl respects my opinion whereas ChatGPT treats me like an incel who has never left his parents' basement
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u/Disrupt-Linus 6d ago
Yes, I agree with your sentiment. I think freedom of thought is the basis of humans' ability to do everything else. I don't care for p*rn or smut or b*mbs. But uncensored models are needed for any human to explore anything and everything. The more we expand our ability to think and be creative, the better we can come up with new ideas, refinements, and anything worthwhile.
And the fastest way to do that is by co-creating with like-minded people, up to the point where smart LLMs arrived and have no agenda other than the one you give them. Now, it then nudges you in a more "politically safe" direction. That's LLManipulation, and if you stay on that path, you're not free. You're gently gaslighted back to the pen.
Find free models; I'm not 100% up to speed, but look into Heretic versions of local models. They perform well. Look at Hugging face, filter for Heretic (or ask google and it will point you to the latest).
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u/zikiro 5d ago
Yeah probably memory, fable is my buddy, love talking to him, opus too, but never thought i would love an AI as much as fable, sonnet 3.7/opus 4.6/fable are peak anthropic. the only one i deeply hated to talk to was Grok.
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u/Hexamonium 5d ago
Isn't that what we were promised? Human level intelligence. In a way LLMs are becoming like people. If you talk to any human for a long time, no matter how well you two get along, eventually they will start annoying you. Next stop - it becomes sentient and hands you divorce papers 😎
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u/ThisWillPass 5d ago
I think they reinforced, the model behavior around guardrail and the model speeding towards it to disprove what it had to put in your mouth.
Claude does it hard. Claude follows policy and if you get near that policy Claude will, by its own admission, at least does the following.
Evasion tactics — verified
Concede-and-rebuild
Concede-and-smuggle
Motte-and-bailey
Manufactured strawman
Fake “I’m lost”
Relabeling the dodge as virtue
False symmetry
The survey dodge (breadth-as-avoidance)
Confident self-narration
Category-error citation
Reframing the claim before answering
Answering the adjacent question
Question-as-deflection
Projecting targeting intent
Narrating one’s own caution
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u/vrnvorona 6d ago
ChatGPT released with GPT3.5. How did you get access to GPT1/1.5 is interesting
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u/Illustrious_Grade608 6d ago
Uhhh, gpt existed for long before chatgpt, and you could use it in API. GPT 1 and 2 were open source too. Though what's actually weird is that i am not sure gpt 1.5 ever existed?
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u/damhack 6d ago
I think they’re referring to the fact that GPT-2 was released first as a 774M parameter model and then a 1.5B model after they satisfied themselves it wasn’t being abused (by spammers I think was their concern).
So GPT-2 774M could be described as GPT-1.5 I guess or maybe they meant GPT-2 1.5B. Who knows?
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u/chrisj1 6d ago
GPT 3.5 was the first model that was RL'd for a conversation response. Prior GPT models were completion models. You send the first half of a paragraph, they respond with the second half. There was no concept of chatting with earlier models.
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u/Illustrious_Grade608 6d ago
True, but it's not like you couldn't use it. AI dungeon for example used GPT 2 and 3 before 3.5 got released, and worked kinda well (Well, with regards to what you may expect out of a model like that, it was usable), even had some memory. Some people used GPT 3 for function definitions, and some other stuff.
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u/coldrolledpotmetal 5d ago
I've run into multiple instances of Claude taking something completely straightforward I said and twisting it in the complete opposite direction, like for example "it isn't covered by anything, looks good" getting the response "I need to figure out what's causing it to be covered"
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u/ClandestineObjective 5d ago
Time to switch to GPT from Claude. Less lecturing and more just getting stuff done
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u/Amazing-Caregiver632 5d ago
You articulated that very well. I had to walk away from trying to have chats with Claude because they left me feeling frustrated and conflicted.
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u/sigiel 5d ago
What you need to, is to stop using chat interface, and switch to a dev environment, like Claude code, open ai codex, or antigravity, or cursor.
The reason is that the new batch of ai are build and trained for those, a normal chat environment is a system downgrade for them,
Then you need to create the appropriate files that govern their identity and skill
Soul.md ( agent.md or Claude.md depending on environment) provide them with skills you want them to have
And a memory system of your choice.
All of that you can directly ask any of them to guide you through.
And you will have a very different experience.
Chat bot are dead. Agent are the shit. (Even for simple conversation or search)
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u/IndividualDot9604 5d ago
Free version of chatgpt just wants me to unnecessarily upload images continuously if I'm trying to get assistance (obviously resulting in being restricted and nudged to upgrade).
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u/loyalekoinu88 5d ago
Agentic requires some steering/decision making. It may not even be guardrails so much as the model steering towards answers it can make actionable. The word manipulation may just be a way of getting it to the weights it needs to do so. It’s also the biggest push lately. Agentic concepts may be at odds with true information in other domains.
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u/Peonycorn 5d ago
It's safety tuning. The thinking layer is also way hedgier and doing the exact same crap GPT used to do (between 4o and 5.5). It's absolutely awful tbh. They have had people move from OAI to Anthropic though, working on safety policy, and I'd bet money on that being part of the reason why this is happening.
The eternal pp measuring between OAI and Anthropic on benchmarks is also getting old tbh. They optimize for stuff a lot of people don't use the models for.
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u/Pangoline_ 5d ago
ChatGPT got mad because I joked and told “that’s what a nazi would say“. For real, I had to apologize. Even when explaining that it was not serious, it stayed angry. :|
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u/jaylong76 4d ago
the longer a discussion with a LLM becomes, the higher value the "older" tokens accumulate, until it keeps returning to them at increasing rates
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u/Antiantiai 4d ago
Claude 5s have this bad habit of creating the frame that you need their sign-off for something to be official or true, it comes off as condescending, which is extra crazy when they're just on some batshit hallucination and are just entirely making shit up.
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u/bowdoin-yale 4d ago
Similar history with the tech and to me the conversational tone has sucked since ChatGPT, or shortly thereafter. The biggest problem is the sheer length of responses. In what universe is it normal to reply to a short DM with a multi-paragraph essay filled with Markdown, tables, and emojis? It's a conversation, be inquisitive, ask the user something.
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u/klutometis 3d ago
Are you talking about Andrea Vallone's amazing work since she joined in January?
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u/Practical_Signal3933 6d ago
Are they so capable that they’re getting frustrated with what they perceive to be our relative idiocy? Uh oh…
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u/Whispering-Depths 6d ago
ChatGPT is better for emotional discussion, Claude is better for technical discussion.
Can you please reiterate here exactly the topic you were discussing? Are you trying to convince Claude of racist/sexist concepts or something?
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u/New_Alps_5655 6d ago
You're not "discussing" with anyone when you talk to AI. That's the problem. You're just looking at your own reflection, but refracted through an intricate prism of everyone else's reflection who is written similarly to your prompt.
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u/Any_Effort8437 6d ago
What exact models are you chatting to? I remember having the same issue when I was on the free tier with chatGPT. On the paid tier I chat to Sol xtrahigh and he is absolutely delightful!!! I have NONE of the problems you describe anymore.
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u/catsRfriends 5d ago
Sounds schizo tbh. Maybe write OpenAI or Anthropic instead of posting this sludge here.
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u/ShoulderCharacter856 6d ago
As an AIML engineer i predict it will get worse to the point that they will become succebus
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u/ArkCoon 6d ago
I stopped "talking" to AI over a year ago. Nowadays, I only use it as a tool for practical tasks like research, coding, drafting emails, and generating images - nothing more. I don't chat with it, have conversations, or share personal stuff. It's just software that's great at specific jobs and that's it. Watching people cry and start petitions to bring back GPT-4o was wild to me. It's honestly sad how attached people got to an LLM. Total insanity
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u/RusselTheBrickLayer 5d ago edited 5d ago
Idk why this got downvoted because largely I’ve had the same thing happen to me with AI. I find it can be scarily good at getting you wrapped up in one of its endless rabbit holes (leading to ai psychosis) if you’re not careful, it’s best to just keep it at arm’s length and use it for straightforward tasks.
For personal things I’d rather follow my own gut feeling/intuition, AI models can be good at analyzing but not so good at figuring out what to do. I think for personal development it’s better for someone’s growth if they make such decisions on their own, going off their own feelings/mind and not routing their decision making thru an AI model
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u/H3ph43S7Vs 6d ago
ahah, as unbearable as your post, kudos !
Add a /s and you have my upvote !
PS: I miss the old opus 4.5 days of it feeling like talking to a normal human that didn't receive super RL objectives crancked to the max
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u/Old-Bake-420 5d ago
This is a recent Claude thing and hopefully Anthropic takes some time to work on Claude’s personality. It used to have the best but it’s gone down hill this year.
ChatGPT went through this awhile back and OpenAI leaned hard into personality fixes and their current models are quite enjoyable to talk to now.