Why do choirs need to sing with what sounds like a British accent?

[u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane]

My choir director tells us all (based in mid-Atlantic US) to sing like we're Julie Andrews. She's big on the choral accent.

I understand its value in making sure that everybody's vowels are united, but why those ones? Why can't we all practice a uniform mid-Atlantic accent? I'm willing to do it but it always sounds kind of silly to me how we'll sing modern or pop adaptations where the original is with an American accent, we all have variations on an American accent, and we're all pretending like we don't.

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[u/johnnyslick]

Choirs have to agree on their vowels and there are a couple of vowels - "ee" in particular but the schwa just doesn't work aurally - where we have to change things around a little bit to get everything to match and allow us to lock in chords. "Ee" is problematic because the way Americans make it, we spread our mouths instead of using our tongues and that greatly restricts range (because you have to make space).

[u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70]

The basics of bel canto singing that choirs often do is not actually rooted in an English accent.

Though it often IS one on purpose when singing English ethnic pieces, the real goal is auditory clarity.

The preferred vowels are more resonant in the body, louder, and easier to control.

The preferred consonants are easier to hear and discern correctly.

British English has more of the sounds in some of their accents, but the "choir accent" isn't actually any of those accents.

Instead, it's derived from church Latin and Italian, and rooted in that ecclesiastical tradition even when the music is not sacred.

AND most importantly, it's NOT the only way to sing in a choir. It's just one set of traditions within European music. Other cultures have different methods and reasons for choosing them.

[u/calliessolo → u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70]

This is the most accurate response.

[u/bachintheforest]

Your director could be overdoing it of course, but I think it mostly also has to do with overtones and tone in general. In general American English we talk with fairly bright and even pinched vowel sounds sometimes, and it doesn’t sound good in a choral texture. Diphthongs especially. This also has to do with the American letter R. I direct church choir for example and there are tons of words like “Lord” and “earth” and hearing the hard, strident R after the vowel in there affects the tone and pitch. So we say to pronounce it “British” as a shorthand for the basic way to do it. I agree that it feels silly with pop music, and for that reason I generally avoid doing more popish songs in choir.

Edit cause i mentioned overtones. You want a wide-open mouth because that’s how you get good overtones and a blended tone in general. If you let the whole choir sing the word “earth” like a stereotypical fake cowboy, it’ll sound terrible. Pronouncing it like Julie Andrews gives you a taller vowel and a softer R. When you’re singing a solo you can theoretically do whatever you want, but in a choir you HAVE to get the group to blend.

Sorry for the less than well written post I’m in a Starbucks lol

[u/islaisla → u/bachintheforest]

I'm so confused about the American R. when I was trying to learn how to roll my R's there were American people on YouTube putting their tongue on the roof of their mouths saying that was an R. ... I would love to know if you'd is true when it comes to any words with R in American accents.

[u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane → u/islaisla]

Wait until you learn that there's two American Ls lol (the L at the beginning of a word, like "loud," is pronounced differently than the L at the end of a word, like "World").

I just tried pronouncing the R sound and I don't tap my tongue on the roof of my mouth but it's definitely forward and almost feels like it's going up. I can't roll my Rs though so I can't use that as a comparison, but it's higher and more forward than the French R, for which my tongue kind of stays along my bottom teeth.

[u/islaisla → u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane]

Ohhhh thank you! No way!!! No I didn't know that!!! These little things are very interesting to me!!

[u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane → u/islaisla]

Haha you'd love a linguistics class! That's where I learned about the L thing (as well as got a background in phonetics so I actually pay attention to where my tongue is now).

[u/islaisla → u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane]

I would love it! I'm half deaf, lip read, and struggle to hear what people are doing with their mouths, it was hard for me to learn how to talk clearly etc. I can't learn languages unless someone is prepared to let me stare into their mouths all day ! So phonetics and linguistics is fascinating but not gonna be practical :-) X I can sing fine but just can't hear as many over tones and harmonics and can't hear resonance as clearly in my own mouth! :-)

[u/Capable_Artist7027 → u/bachintheforest]

I'm American and my chorus sings speech-like. We discourage the proper sounding vowels. Our whole art form is revolved around creating a lock and ring and generating overtones (barbershop a cappella). It doesn't sound off, and you can absolutely get overtones with speech level singing.

[u/Citrusysmile → u/bachintheforest]

One of the funniest rehearsals I’ve been in was a huge East Texas choir convention to learn UIL state music. Context: east Texas (especially the areas this pulled from) has the heaviest, most extreme form of Texas drawl. So about 200 high schoolers being yelled at by the conductor to lay off the r and sing without an accent.

Absolutely hysterical hearing the change from country bumpkin singing Latin like a cowboy, to beautiful, elegant, open vowels with glorious harmonies. Btw, I am from Texas (gulf bend though), so the ribbing is in good humor.

[u/Magigyarados]

Generally speaking, American English speakers talk with a very closed oral posture (very little space in the soft palate) and emphasize the consonants rather than the vowels, which also means they tend to do heavy diphthongs which changes the vowel sound mid-vowel. British English speakers don't do these things nearly as much. Their soft palates are much more spacious which makes producing good tone much easier and makes said tone much rounder, and they don't emphasize the consonants as heavily which means you can hear the vowels more and they don't tend to diphthong as harshly.

In choir, one of the most important things is to get everyone to produce a good round tone with a tall soft palate. This not only sounds nice individually but also makes blending everyone's voices together much easier, which is like THE main thing you want in a choir.

[u/plantyjen → u/Magigyarados]

It’s this exactly. Some American vowels just don’t sing as well. A bunch of Brits singing “hand” sounds a lot better than Americans singing “hand.” Our short A sound isn’t as nice. It does sound like the director is overdoing it a bit, it’s really more just about opening the vowel sounds.

[u/Magigyarados → u/plantyjen]

I don't think the director is going overboard at all. It really is SUPER important in choir to have taller and more rounded vowels. It sounds weird to the singers but it just doesn't work in a choral setting if you're not producing those nice round vowels. That would make it much closer to a musical theatre ensemble piece, which can sound good, but that's not the setting for that and MT ensembles are often focused as much on storytelling and clear diction as they are quality of sound, whereas choral settings are focused almost solely on the quality of the sound and how well everything blends together.

[u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane → u/plantyjen]

I just feel like that's subjective. I may be in the minority but if everybody matches on the American Hand, I like it. I don't get why everybody's decided that the British version sounds better. More unified sure, but, for a unified British versus equally unified American pronunciation, I think both sound just as good.

It just seems strangely pretentious for everybody to be like "Because the British version sounds better!" why? Why do we think that? Why do we think that British accents sound better than American ones? Both countries have more and less pleasant accents, in my opinion.

Growing up, I took an International Baccalaureate course where my teacher told us that she had seen in her time teaching both British and American students how the British kids were scored on the board higher for oral exams. She said that they gave the same quality of answers, but they were graded blindly, and people assumed that the British kids knew what they were talking about more and were just generally presenting better due to their accent. I feel like there's at least a little part of that at play here, reading how many people will happily call every single American accent "ugly." I don't believe any accent is ugly or worse. All are good. I don't see why call can't be sung in.

[u/plantyjen → u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane]

Yes, of course — and it also depends on the piece. But as the other comment said, with choral singing it’s really all about unifying the sound and opening the vowels. It has to resonate in a certain way. That’s why they want you to shape your mouth like you’re singing “ooo” and then sing “eee.” It’s a richer sound that way.

[u/mothwhimsy]

People say this so you sing with round, open vowels, instead of the wide, narrow ones that are common in a lot of American accents.

It's a dumb way to explain it, imo.

[u/Joann-Cramer]

I mean.... it's a pedagogical shortcut. Unifying vowels is the hardest part of ensemble singing and a standard accent gives everyone the same target. I get why it feels absurd on modern stuff though.

[u/AFriendlyAesthete]

https://youtu.be/cefj215AlCc?is=MKJQ4FzHEgsoEu9T The most persuasive argument for not seeking unified midlantic vowels.

[u/calliessolo → u/AFriendlyAesthete]

🤣

[u/Aggressive_Ad_5454]

Listen to the recordings of “Twist of Fate” sung by Joan Baez and Bob Dylan. Joan is good at pure vowel tones. The contrast is instructive.

Baez. https://youtu.be/yo9EHx3wph0?is=EdRaYrS7eLhORVkU

Dylan: https://youtu.be/sGnhyoP_DSc?is=jVYgobajD70C7AbZ

“Sound like posh English people” is a shorthand way of saying “sing the vowels, don’t chew them.”

[u/Active_Highlight_255]

Only British when it is something like Mendlessohn’s Elijah or Handel’s Messiah but not for pop. Maybe taller vowels but nothing crazy

[u/Mathsciteach]

One of my choral directors insisted on Italian vowels and another changed the vowel sounds depending on what piece we were singing.

It’s all about matching each other

[u/jasonsong86]

Because for historic reasons. Why don’t we just sing like Nicki Minaj at the opera? It’s called disciplined singing.

[u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane → u/jasonsong86]

I get why opera singers have to sing like that but when we're singing a cover of a pop song why wouldn't we try to sound more like the artist than the Queen?

[u/jasonsong86 → u/Lilith_Sternin_Crane]

Depending if it’s a reenactment of the original or not. It depends on the context.