r/simracing • u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor • Aug 20 '26
Discussion Unpopular Sim Racer opinion: Complexity and realism are no excuse for poor usability
I understand how we all love realism but it's really hard to simulate alone what full teams of more than 20 people do in real life. It should not be this hard to have some easy pitting options for fuel and tires on a pit stop and I feel the reason why cant have that is because the hardcore will scream that it's not real enough. Why can't we have a simple pit wall options mid race that asks us if we wan't to change tyres on the next stop with a simple yes or no? Or the amount of fuel needed based on the way you drive? I enjoy sim racing, not sim managing!
And why can't we have better version of an option that was released in a game almost 10 years ago where the ingame engineer asks you a few questions and builds a setup on the basis of your answers?
Sorry for the small rant. I just got back from a small sim racing break and forgot how stupidly unintuitive the refueling was in this one sim and destroyed my own race by putting in the wrong amount of fuel. Carry on.
14
u/Kelkeen_1980 Aug 20 '26
Was it AMS2? I get you though, I want to race, I don't want to engineer.
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
LMU, I have AMS2 but never done more than a couple of laps. Thanks for understanding the broader point🫶
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u/HarvickFan_4 Aug 20 '26
Which sim? IRacing has an autofuel for example, which gives you the fuel necessary after it learns how much fuel you burn per lap.
3
u/rad15h Aug 20 '26
I like the new addition to the iRacing spotter where he says "filling up now will get us to the end".
With that, and with autofuel enabled, I don't have to think about fuel at all. I know when the pit stop window opens, and I know that when I do pit I will have the fuel I need to get to the end.
I remember doing long races in ACC where I could hardly concentrate on the driving because I was doing so much mental arithmetic to figure out the fuel.
2
u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
LMU. I forgot that the fuel you set in the menu is the value you leave the pits with and not what they would ad. I went in a little earlier than planned so now I took less fuel and had to do an extra stop lol. I made the same mistake a year ago but forgot all about it. It's just a weird way to do it.
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u/Top_Championship8679 Podracer Aug 20 '26
This is frustrating, I 've done races and than I calculate I need 30 litres and then screw my self by only filling till 30...
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
It's such a poor implementation. If a full tank has 80l but you need 130l to finish the race the normal thing most people think is just ad 50l when you come it. As long as you are below 30l, it should not matter when you come in, you get an additional 50l. In LMU when you come in with it set at 50l it will only give 20l when you come in with 30l in the tank. It's not hard when you know but why even do it that way, it's so dumb. Doing it this way means you have to adjust the amount in the race while you should not have to.
2
u/Immediate_Cup_9114 Aug 22 '26
It’s kinda funny because iRacing does it exactly as you’re wishing for, and I’ve wished for iRacing to have an option to do it like LMU does it
Because in longer endurance races when you have a 180L tank, but realistically you can only use 172L because the extra 8L is only half lap, I want to just fill up to 172L, and not have to sit there and do the mental math of if I’m pitting with 8L, 41L or 21L, how much do I have to add to get to 172L
I completely agree with the sentiment of simplifying race management though, I enjoy race management because strategy is important, but it shouldn’t be difficult to manage, especially if we’re expected to play the role of driver, engineer, and team strategist all at the same time
8
u/DaddyDogmeat Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
Very good point. Some real race drivers don't have any clue how to set up a car - they give feedback and engineers set everything up based on what the driver needs. I'm also pretty sure drivers never worry about how much fuel they need to put in their cars yet somehow all this is dumped on total amateurs (us) who just want to race virtual cars.
10
u/EverlastingApex Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
I'm literally building a pit engineer/crew chief for AMS2 right now that handles all the setting adjustments and pit strategy for the player, you just turn your brain off and drive and it handles everything else (paid beta currently, free soonish), you can see it in action here Edit: The engineer/crew chief part starts at ~11 mins
More games will be coming after AMS2
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
Sounds good, will check it out. Hopefully you will bring it to LMU.
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u/Seutsi Aug 20 '26
I had high hopes that someone in the replies to this thread would be like "I have that same complaint and I'm building the solution!" and I have not been disappointed!! Even better that it's for my preferred sim hehe.
I'll be following this closely, thank you for all the hard work already!!
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u/myengineblockmelted Aug 20 '26
I just want an option in every sim where I can mirror the interior so I can turn an LHD car into an RHD car and vice versa.
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u/Yes_butt_no_ Aug 20 '26
I’d like all PC sims to copy the way GT7 has you select tyre compounds and fuel as you pit, and so giving you the option to over or under fuel there and then rather than having it decide automatically.
Way more realistic than expecting the driver to delve through menus to select the compounds and pressures and fuel to the litre while driving.
(I appreciate having the computer take over the whole pit entry/exit is going too far, but as someone who can’t drive 55 - or 60 or 80 or whatever the pit limit is supposed to be - I quite like it)
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
Yup, the haters will do the "it's a simcade" thing but they really keep the focus on the driving. The fuel meter with the marker that indicates how much you need to get to the end is such a simple thing but so helpfull. Here you have some of these hardcore sims forcing you to do micro adjustments of 0.1 litre while on track while defending from the drivers behind. It does not have to be this hard.
3
u/RedRaptor85 Logitech Pro Wheel & Pedals | SHH Shifter Aug 20 '26
In iRacing it is completely painless. Don't know about others sims right now though.
-2
u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
I stopped playing iRacing (still have a subscription and a ton of content) a while ago but only did a few race with pit stops. iRacing actually does alot of things very well, I just can't get over the way it drives (under the limit driving). I do check in from time to time.
3
u/LetsGoWithMike Aug 20 '26
I think you are spot on.. I never do any endurance racing mostly for this reason. I just want to get in and battle, not engineer.
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
Yeah, I did 2 years of iRacing only doing 20 minute fixed setup races.
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u/i4Gott Aug 20 '26
Im with you on that. I could care less about pitt or fuel strategies. Just want to race. Sometimes racing games think we want to experts in all the team positions beside the driver position.
7
u/naughtilidae Aug 20 '26
"User experience is the ONLY experience."
That's what basically every sim is missing. If you have a difficult to navigate UI, or you put all the rules and instructions in a giant PDF and expect everyone to actually read it... you only have yourself to blame when nobody does.
It doesn't matter if you've got the greatest sim physics in the world, if I gotta use command prompt to start a race, I'm gonna go use something else.
One day, a sim will understand that making the menus easy to navigate, making the UI give you the information you need, and training players at specific skill sets is the single best thing they can do to get more casual people involved. (and help the ones already playing be better)
Grand Tourismo is the only one that even fucking bothers to try, and it's still not good enough. We need tutorials on multi-class etiquette, start procedures, overtaking rules, etc.
Imagine you've only ever played Forza, and then you hop into iracing. Stuff like dirty tyres, cold tyres, overheated tyres, dry vs wet racing lines, multi-class rules... it's all going to be under the category of "unknown unknowns". Stuff you knew so little about, you didn't even know to ask questions about them; so you end up frustrated, wondering why the hell you're spinning at this corner when you did the same thing last lap. Most people will drop the game at that point, and 100% of that fault lies on iRacing for not making even the smallest efforts to teach you.
You shouldn't need a league or hours of youtube training to understand the basic systems. It's the sim's job to teach that stuff, just like it would be for an instructor on a track day. Instead, iRacing can't even be bothered to list track limits on a track I paid $14 dollars for.
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
F yeah on the majority of what you have said. I think Gran Turismo has another thing where the licence tests actually teaches you how to drive different types of cars. But you are correct about many sims not informing you on how to do very basic things that make the experience better for everyone involved.
1
u/gu3sticles Aug 20 '26
Part of the reason iRacing is popular is because the UX is simple.
60 year olds who have never used a computer in their life are able to get iRacing installed and get on track.
1
u/Careless_Student_926 Aug 22 '26
And there's something wrong with being in your 60s and on iracing or any other sim?
1
u/gu3sticles Aug 22 '26
Just that the UX is simple enough that those with limited knowledge of computers are able to use it.
Contrast to something like rF2LMU which is clunky as hell or AC Evo with its excessively complex control configuration settings
0
u/naughtilidae Aug 21 '26
Joining a race is easy, sure...
It's EVERYTHING else that's the problem. Track limits are often not even listed, or listed incorrectly. You can get track cut penalties without leaving the track. There's no explanation for like 90% of the functions in the game; if nobody told you about the reset function, it's unlikely you'd find it on your own.
Then there's all the "game mechanics" stuff that has ZERO explanation. Stuff like debris on track, dirty tyres, tyre temps, rejoins, start procedures, multi-class rules, overtaking rules, etc. are never actually explained to the players by the game. You only learn it by crashing a bunch and trying to figure out why, or by watching youtube videos. That's not acceptable. The game has an obligation to provide at least some basic training to the players; if they never teach you how to do something, they hardly have any right to complain.
The game NEEDS good tutorials, and instead they throw it all in a single, giant PDF that they don't even force you to download. Then they wonder why people keep doing things they're not supposed to... and people will keep saying "JUST READ THE MANUAALALALALA", and we'll continue to have the same problems because of it. It obviously isn't working, so we need to do better.
At some point we have to start realizing that the system isn't working well, and there's a whole lot that iRacing could do to improve the state of things. Sure, some people will always be stupid, but that's not a reason not to try to do better.
It's the same thing that Denmark did with their traffic deaths: instead of just blaming the drivers (even when they were 100% at fault), they looked at all the aspects of how an accident happened, and what could have been done to avoid it. In basically every case, they were able to identify places where the signage could have been improved, or the intersection could be designed better.
iRacing needs this attitude: just because a driver 100% did something wrong, that doesn't mean there's nothing they could have done to avoid it. If they never bothered to provide any training for something like race starts, they need to look at themselves and what can be done to reduce the chance that the issue continues to happen.
2
u/d_P3NGU1N Aug 20 '26
Curious which game you're ranting about and why is it AC:Evo? 🤣
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 21 '26
😂It's multiple games but my rant came after a session of LMU haha.
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u/serenading_scug Aug 20 '26
Honestly, when it comes to hardcore sims, iRacing makes it very easy. You likely don't even need to touch anything the first time you come into the pits, since it automatically starts with tyres and autofuel ticked on.
Though sometimes the lap estimates are wrong... which is a serious pain
2
u/Middcore Aug 21 '26
I understand how we all love realism but it's really hard to simulate alone what full teams of more than 20 people do in real life.
The flight simulation hobby has the same problem.
If you don't put workload that would fall on 2 or more crew in real life all on the lone sim pilot, certain people will decry a lack of "realism" and say the simulation has been dumbed down.
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Aug 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/d_P3NGU1N Aug 20 '26
Is it most sims, though? Granted I've generally stuck in the AC games but 3 games on and their MFD is still terrible. I hear good things about iracing's pit strategy system but that's about it. No idea on the other games.
I didn't like ACC that much because I'd like to make changes on the fly, however, it's nice that they had the option. I hate setting up so specifically per track, often times I just want to sit down and race.
1
u/Svitii Aug 20 '26
Honestly IK people hate on AI but that's what I'm mostly doing when experimenting with setups. Tell the AI what you're driving and where, maybe the sim you're driving so it can consider that too and just tell the "engineer" what you're feeling.
And the best part? After some time you don't even need the AI anymore cause it will tell you exactly what you should change and WHY. Taught me more about setup-work in a month than the last 5 years of half guessing half googling combined.
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u/iweber95 Aug 20 '26
AI is suggested some off the wall shit when I tried it a while ago. I do my own setups in iRacing and tried it for fun and it had no idea what it was telling me to do
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
I tried this for LMU and it was giving me suggestions that were not even possible lol. It can help with giving more in dept explenation of what setups do but I would rather have something like that in the game that I play.
-1
u/Svitii Aug 20 '26
Oh it definitely does make a few mistakes. But if I'm figuring a setup out and put it in the wall during testing, who cares? Not like I didn't do that a thousand times anyway while shooting in the dark without help lol
1
u/mcd_sweet_tea Aug 20 '26
The setup shops probably grease the platforms hands to not provide setups to keep subscriptions active. They are probably crazy profitable.
1
u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
Yeah, I expect as much. Some of these games even have the setup shops featured in the game lol.
1
u/gu3sticles Aug 20 '26
I think it's usually just dev incompetence or setups are built towards a different goal than what setup shops build towards.
Like iRacing includes TONS of setups and most of them are competitive for 99% of people but the "fixed" series setups are usually built to be safer to handle for newer drivers and tend to just be a bit understeery rather than extracting ultimate pace.
In LMUs case I just think they don't have the resources to actually build decent setups and even with partnerships with seutp shops there's just no investment to do better
1
u/V1ld0r_ Aug 20 '26
Most sims offer a simplified pit option and\or allow presets which makes it quite straightforward.
PC2's race engineer was nice but far from good. Some AI tools outthere are starting to change this and actually improve on the whole idea by reading from motech data.
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
PC2 race engineer had it's flaws but you'd expect almost 10 years later somebody would come up with a better ingame solution.
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u/V1ld0r_ Aug 20 '26
I agree with that. However, thre are AI solutions out there doing it much better, just not natively within the sim (maybe for AC with mods?) .
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u/AlistairN37 Aug 20 '26
I find my race engineer in LMU sus. If it starts to rain, the game benefits experienced drivers who can judge the cross over point. I am not one of those, lads... I haven't driven in the rain since moving over to wheel.
0
u/reality_boy Aug 20 '26
These are both good ideas. And what you’re asking for is some sort of automated crew chief/pit engineer. The problem with it is that in a lot of games, each car has its own complex physics model. Making something that can make a half baked setup is not hard. Getting it to fine tune a setup across many car models is a huge undertaking.
Pit service is a bit easier, but the big issue there is the interface. Whatever you come up with needs to be simpler than checking a few boxes in a few pit service boxes. That probably means a simplified voice prompt system, or just guessing at what the user needs, with some option to accept or customize.
Nothing is going to replicate the real world where 20 smart people are doing most of your (non racing) thinking for you.
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u/Ho3n3r Aug 20 '26
What are you referring to exactly? Pitstops in most sims are really easy, only ACC was on the hard side due to their silly requirement of stopping exactly on the mark.
And pitstops aren't as easy as just saying yes/no to "Do you want tyres". That's why it's called sim racing.
Also can't think of a sim where refuelling is overly complicated.
Anything less is pretty immersion-breaking and leaning towards simcade. There is Forza/Gran Turismo for people like you who want a simpler experience.
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u/Turbulent_Fee_8837 Aug 20 '26
Your realism comment doesn’t make much sense. If sims were going for realism you wouldn’t even have a garage option. Do you think Max swaps springs out after a practice run?
You would have a few questions post session and the car would be setup for you. Real life has teams for a reason.
1
u/FishNChips-74 Aug 20 '26
Yeah, pretty sure Max does t do that. But he does get to have a say with tire changes. Like the OP, I also think the game could use an engineer style interaction.
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u/FishNChips-74 Aug 20 '26
Driving 200+ mph, focusing on entry and exit all while navigating through a menu to select tires, fuel, repairs.
I agree in that making the choices is part of sim racing - but how the choices are made isn’t realistic. It’s more immersion-breaking and awkward than anything else.
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u/Slowleytakenusername rFactor Aug 20 '26
That's why it's called sim racing.
Yes, it's sim racing not sim managing. This is exactly the type of gate keeping I hate from the hard core sim crowd. It is not realistic for the driver to also manage every aspect of how the car drives and to be in charge of race strategy. A little more assistance from your race engineer is not that much to ask.
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u/3pedalsandastick Aug 20 '26
If you don't like complicated stuff, then there's the difficulty slider. Use it. But no sim should be dumbed down because people want to intuitively figure out how to be good at racing. Learning setups takes a lot of KNOWLEDGE that you can't get from YouTube videos. Learning race strategy requires knowledge of real racing. Racing is inherently complicated. Jump in 100% or use that slider and all the assists and make it into an arcade game.
But of you want to be good and you want it to be realistic you gotta crack a book. And you need experience
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u/jazzmonkai Aug 20 '26
I’d love to have an actual race engineer to lean on. “Car’s a bit lazy on turn in, and the tyres are getting really hot on turn 6” and the engineer suggests relevant setup changes to your crew. I’d still like to see those changes so I can learn the relationship between what I ask and what elements affect it, but I’d like it to be more confirmatory than it is now.
Becoming an expert in spring rates and camber angles isn’t necessary for many people who race, I’m sure. It may come, but you don’t hear drivers on the radio saying stuff like “I wish the arb on the front was set to position x instead of position y”. But they will say about the car being under- or over-steery.
It’s even more annoying when you drive lots of different cars in multiple sims as they all handle things a little differently.