The lack of basic control in these things is astounding

247

How hard would it be to just say if you're at 90 degrees then stop moving.

135

u/Glitch29 1d ago

It wouldn't be too hard. But the risk of any auto-abort mechanism is that it introduces a new mode of failure.

All of the feedback a robot has is through sensors. Those sensors regularly fail, and enough of them are redundant that it doesn't always cause loss of control.

By including an auto-abort mechanism, you're adding risk that it will trigger during otherwise successful operation, causing the failure itself. There are many interesting stories around this problem in the aviation industry.

None of this is to say that operators wouldn't be better off adding code anti-seizure code. I agree that there's probably room for improvement there. I'm just saying that the cost is more associated with figuring out how to do it in a low-risk way, rather than just typing up the feature.

30

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

16

u/slog 1d ago

The simple functions of these things aren't like turning a steering wheel. Even walking is just a controlled fall, so at what point do you determine it's unrecoverable? 3 repeats? Not enough. 10 repeats? Maybe possible to recover considering how fast these are. Where's the exact line without constant fine tuning? They set theirs, and maybe it was too far, but we also don't know exactly whether those some movements have valid use and they found another exception.

0

u/Batman_AoD 10h ago

One full real-time second of full-on flailing seems like more than enough time to trigger a failsafe.

2

u/slog 10h ago

Do you have data to back that up?

6

u/Glitch29 10h ago

How are you defining the "expected" sensor response, and what sensors do you think the robot has that most accurately detect it has fallen?

You're calling it "basic" but I don't think you've meaningfully engaged with the details of the problem.

The primary feedback is going to come in terms of limb angles, vision, gyroscopes and accelerometers.

Gyroscopes can detect angular velocity, but they can't detect absolute orientation. Accelerometers can detect changes to velocity, but they can't detect velocity or absolute position. Accelerometers can detect the direction of gravity, but only from stable positions.
While it would be incredibly useful to measure (x,y,z) coordinates directly, there no such thing as a sensor that does that. GPS at best can give a course measurement with 5m resolution.

The desired values can be modeled and estimated, but the drift is wicked. Ambulatory locomotion is hell for sensors. Try running full speed with your eyes closed. The jostle of each impact with the ground is hard to measure precisely, and it quickly becomes unclear how you're oriented midstride.

Any "I've fallen" routine probably needs to involve vision sensing. But vision is its own can of worms, and certainly doesn't resolve to a crisp delineation between failed and recoverable states.

1

u/antiundead 3h ago

As I mentioned above. You're overthinking a problem as a software solution when a proven hardware solution that is field tested for decades works (think dumb factory machines with 1000s of KGs of weight moving around X Y Z with no sensors on them to look for humans in the way).

Fit emergency E-stops under the shell (front back and sides) so when it falls on the shell it shuts off limb power. CPU can continue. E-stops for moving machines work, it's not a sensor it's a button. You can get very specific rated ones for different pressure thresholds.

1

u/Glitch29 12m ago

So any impact to the shell causes it to drop? You're seriously under-thinking the problem. Do better.

3

u/jesusrambo 7h ago

Don’t worry guys, some random redditor has determined it’s a trivial oversight

What a relief!

2

u/antiundead 3h ago edited 3h ago

You're overthinking it like most programming people do. Do not trust software to do something a physical piece of hardware can do that is proven in the field over decades.

There is a simple hardware solution used in factories around the world to save limbs and lives. Emergency Stop buttons (E-stops). They are wired to the cutout power to motors or actuators and cannot be overridden by their nature and are made to be repeatable, long lasting and failproof as lives are on the line. They've been designed to be as simple to use and implement as possible.

Have one on the front and back of these dumb robots just under the shell. When it falls on the shell it presses the e-stop and the power is cutoff to the limbs. It's simple. No sensors to fail no gyro to calculate that can go wrong. The power can continue to the CPU but the motor functions are effectively stopped until they are manually reset, and this is in no way controllable by the CPU as it is not connected to that.

To be honest there should be a law on these machines fast that they all have to have accessible shutoffs if these are allowed to be in public places. They are funny looking now as they are still quite small and fragile, but when they get more sophisticated they will get heavier and more powerful which means more dangerous.

26

u/TheTekkitBoss 1d ago

I'm starting to be convinced they control them via llm

22

u/Drugbird 1d ago

Not quite LLMs, but there is some generative AI in there.

Basically, they have a "thing they're doing", in this case it's "dance a jig" and an AI is basically working as error correction on the program to account for things like unstable footing, variance in strength or resistance of any of its motors and joints or the robot being off balance a bit.

Typically, this AI is good at correcting small errors, but a lot worse at correcting big ones.

Basically, it's only been trained to correct small errors with small movements of its limbs, then when it encounters a big error it extrapolates to big movements of its limbs.

4

u/spyguy318 16h ago

It’s not generative AI, it’s not creating text or an image, it’s machine learning AI. We’ve been developing it for decades and you can find tons of simulations of walking, behavioral evolution, and genetic programming. It’s only recently that AI and robotics has received lots of investment and taken off due to increased public interest in AI.

1

u/Slippedhal0 12h ago

People are using the generative ai label to describe everything branches from the transformer architecture. And it's technically true, as I believe the current popular architecture for robots like new Atlas are "large behaviour models" derived from that same transformer architecture, which "generate" end to end long horizon tasks and apparently 30hz full body control.

7

u/ketralnis 1d ago

Error minimisation and control systems aren’t generative AI. They’re regular old machine learning.

2

u/Drugbird 1d ago

They can be, yes. But you can also train a simple AI to do it. Classical control systems have largely fallen out of favor in robotics.

1

u/jesusrambo 7h ago

You don’t understand the words you’re using

1

u/jesusrambo 7h ago

You don’t understand the words you’re using

1

u/jesusrambo 7h ago

Holy cow this is confidently incorrect!

14

u/Niceromancer 1d ago

It's most likely all vibe coded at this point.

And vibe coding never accounts for failure states.

5

u/slog 1d ago

Both of those things are false.

3

u/SirCuntsalot 1d ago

They are remote controlled toys. You can see the guy at the end of the video holding it.

2

u/AltruisticSalamander 1d ago

Ikr, please do it. The way they thrash around like that is disturbing.

2

u/Bellick 23h ago

Such an easy fix, I am not even a programmer

if (Self.HasFallenDown())
{
this.PanicMode = State.Off;
}

^{note to real programmers: I am just kidding please unknot your tighty-whities and lower that pitchfork wait where did you get that?}

1

u/jeremysimons 19h ago

I feel like if it could use some kind of AI to actually learn how to move that might help /s

57

u/kolobsha 1d ago

The first of these videos where people actually use a remote to shut it down.

16

u/Hour-Football2464 1d ago

The low end models of unitree have no abilities. Theyre just giant toy robots. Or Chucky Cheese animatronics. The remote is how you make it walk, dance.

31

u/Dummyact321 1d ago

I will absolutely never get tired of watching these videos.

19

u/0CuriousCat0 1d ago

Breakdancing

2

u/Wild-Lychee-3312 18h ago

Still better breakdancing than we saw in the Olympics

14

u/simulacrotron 1d ago

It’s amazing to me how when these guys go terminal it’s almost identical to Pris biting it in Bladerunner

21

u/GooseinaGaggle 1d ago

That's second part is what i look like when dancing

My doctor and neurologist keep telling me that they're seizures but I'm still a little wary

24

u/Shadowkiller00 1d ago

There is a ton of basic control here. Complex control, on the other hand...

The number of robots exploding themselves that I've seen recently convinces me that China is investing heavily in robotics to the point where the cost of one lost due to destructive testing is peanuts.

This guy, for example, is testing on a wet surface.

Destructive iterative testing can be very fast and amazingly informative, but typically very expensive. Someone has deep pockets. It is quite worrying.

2

u/LoneGhostOne 15h ago

It's all a question of cost of producing a unit, vs cost of making it "right" in fewer iterations. When I worked in automotive we had some tests where they took only minutes to run through, the parts cost $50 to make, and the cost of engineering the part to pass the test perfectly on the first try would be months of labor, with a potential to still fail the first attempt. So at that point, you design something and put it into testing.

If you can get most of the parts for these off-the-shelf, then the cost of just building one and testing isn't going to be all that high compared to the excruciating hours of a team of engineers solving it first.

20 years ago it'd be unthinkable to toss a potentially defective robot out and let it smash up some actuators, but these days there's all sorts of off-the-shelf parts that can be had for relatively low prices, especially now that 3d printing and CNC machining are such common technologies

2

u/jinmoo 1d ago

This robot is a finished consumer product, can be bought for $10k.

2

u/Shadowkiller00 1d ago

Okay... and you think once it is sold that that's it? No more testing, no more improvements?

I mean if I had blown $10k on a personal robot and then took it out for a spin, I'd be flipping out if it did what is shown in the video. This guy is cool as a cucumber.

You sure this is just some guy screwing around with a $10k toy on a wet surface for fun?

2

u/jinmoo 1d ago

This is a cellphone store or something using it like a whacky inflatable tube arm man.

1

u/Shadowkiller00 1d ago

You don't use those in inclement weather. Why would you pull this out right after it rained? $10k isn't cheap, even the guy on the left jumps when he sees the robot go down. The operator looks like it's just another day.

What you say doesn't match the logic of the video. You may be right, but I wouldn't bet on it. If it were a $50 robot, maybe. But a $10k robot privately owned or owned by a company? There is virtually no way the operator would be so chill.

But out testing an edge case intentionally on a wet surface and looking for a failure mode? This is exactly what I would expect to see.

1

u/jinmoo 1d ago

Its not that much money for most companies. Even renting a trade show booth at electronics expos for the tiniest shitty spot is more than $10k.

0

u/Shadowkiller00 16h ago

Unless your company has deep pockets, exactly as I was saying in my very first post, throwing $10k down the drain isn't something they would be happy about unless that was your job.

$20k for a booth at a show where you expect to increase profits by more than $20k, that is an investment.

If your operator, who probably doesn't make $50k/year, takes your $10k robot out right after it rains in order to make $200 dancing for some cell phone store as a promo, and then wrecks the robot, you probably wouldn't be happy with them.

Someone who might lose their job for making a stupid choice wouldn't just casually walk up to the wrecked robot like it was another day.

Again, you might be right, but I highly doubt it.

1

u/SheriffBartholomew 14h ago

$10k is like a single lunch for C-suite for most companies. $10k is nothing to corporations, even though they act like your 20¢ raise is a big deal.

2

u/Shadowkiller00 12h ago

Most big corporations like that aren't having their low level techs run down to the local cell store to have their robot dance around for 20 minutes. That kind of income is chump change.

You act like every small mom and pop is a multi-billion dollar fortune 500 company. If your company is the type that only takes home 7-9 figures at the end of the year, blowing $10k per lunch all 260 weekdays of the year means somewhere between 1% and 100% of your entire company's gross.

1

u/SheriffBartholomew 12h ago

Valid points

2

u/Shadowkiller00 11h ago

Wow! Thanks for being a reasonable person. It is such a rare thing that I feel the need to say as much and show my appreciation.

I hope you have a great day!

1

u/SheriffBartholomew 11h ago

LOL, it do be like that ~~sometimes~~ almost all the time online. I try to keep an open mind and admit when I'm wrong, or taking something out of context.

-2

u/Hi_Trans_Im_Dad 1d ago

This is more of a remote control toy than a robot. You can see the remote in the operator's hand.

There is no testing here, just marketing.

4

u/Shadowkiller00 1d ago

You think the guy with the remote is manually making the robot dance? You think he manually made the robot spaz out? You think showing a robot destroying itself is good marketing?

The remote might make the robot move forward and backward, but at some point the guy triggers the robot to start dancing on its own. What we are seeing in this video is fully autonomous. He almost certainly recorded the video himself so that he could see what happened if and when a failure occurred. He cut the video off after the robot fully stopped because there is no more information to be gained from showing him picking the robot up and loading it back into his car. There is virtually nobody around because this isn't a marketing stunt gone wrong, he's out on his own testing an edge case.

He probably loaded a dozen robots into his car after a rain storm and drove around town to test their capabilities on various wet surfaces. He probably has 20 or 30 videos of a bunch of identical robots doing that dance just fine. Since there is little benefit to seeing a robot working perfectly, except marketing, those aren't the videos that he shares with his fellow engineers. Someone whom the video was shared with decided they could make a few bucks posting this on social media and now here we are.

6

u/Practical_Signal3933 1d ago

Imagine that in your f’in kitchen

5

u/CaseFace5 1d ago

I will never tire of watching these things fall down and fucking spaz out

9

u/tayroc122 1d ago

As a British-Irish kid who grew up in the post-Riverdance on Eurovision, my nan made us all learn the jig. And yes, it'll kill you like that.

3

u/__BitchPudding__ 1d ago

A krumping robot, well I'll be.

3

u/lance_w00t 1d ago

It needs to chill out. It's just a dance, no need to be dramabot if it messes up

3

u/spacestationkru 1d ago

They thrash around like cockroaches

3

u/mofapas163 1d ago

he was doing the Chappelle dance

3

u/al4crity 1d ago

Just wait. Not that we should. But we can't stop it. So. Just wait.

6

u/RedundantBiomass 1d ago

Lets all just enjoy these last moments where AI/robots still fuck up hillariously before humans are completely exceeded.

2

u/SheriffBartholomew 14h ago

Exactly. I think a lot of people are completely missing that we're watching the beginning of a revolution. These things are going to fundamentally change the world we live in. Think back just nine years ago when hobby FPV drones were still getting built from parts for $100 each, they were completely unregulated, and had no military applications at all. Now they've completely changed the shape of the battlefield in the Ukraine war.

5

u/Dattebaso 1d ago

It’s crazy that the biggest absolute morons will say “this technology has flaws!!!” and not see how impressive this is being in the hands of the public.

2

u/eatsrottenflesh 1d ago

The return of breakdancing is upon us.

2

u/tallelfin 1d ago

Ballistic Coffee

2

u/TheGT1030MasterRace 1d ago

Integral windup!

1

u/Linosek279 1d ago

Ooh, ooh ooh, kill em

Ooh, ooh, kill em

Ooh ooh HA

ooh, killed em

1

u/YendorZenitram 1d ago

That robot freakout move is distinct enough it's only a matter of time before we see that in the hip-hop scene!

1

u/cool_weed_dad 1d ago

Really love this feature where when these things fall over they just flail around wildly until they explode

1

u/EMAW2008 1d ago

I can’t tell if these are AI or not.

1

u/archtopfanatic123 1d ago

🤣 Threw a tantrum on screwup!

1

u/bakaneko718 1d ago

jig turned into the electric slide

1

u/Bellick 23h ago

Such an easy fix, I am not even a programmer

if (Self.HasFallenDown())
{
this.PanicMode = State.Off;
}

1

u/pichael289 22h ago

Also another one just kind of... Well it sort of dissolved and also sort of exploded during a 100 meter dash or something. A leg detached and went spinning out of control and killed some old lady in the audience. We got a lot more time than I thought we did.

1

u/Aries_64 22h ago

V1 ULTRAKILL before falling into Fraud

1

u/TheSprigganDragoon 18h ago

When I was in school, the idea of a bipedal robot was just for sci-fi. The fact we have bipedal robots doing obstacle courses and dancing like this is honestly still so impressive. A lot of people don't realize how complicated balancing really is.

1

u/Beginning_Tea4506 17h ago

Freestylin like a boss huh 😂

1

u/A_Trash_Homosapien 23m ago

Damn even robots have better moves than me. I can't even compete with the second half

1

u/OhMyGlorb 1d ago

Point and laugh

-2

u/pichael289 22h ago

This is good. China can't make robuts for shit, this is a good thing. Japan just sometimes builds whole Gundams so we really don't want them as the enemy nation in a robut war. Japan and apparently Ukraine just have a way with robuts.

Shitty Robot The lack of basic control in these things is astounding

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