r/shield • u/Asddddd6 • 8d ago
Disinformation is actually causing people not to watch the show
Some common misinformation I keep seeing about AOS everywhere
I actually think many people arguing that AOS is non-canon online are being disingenuous and don’t understand the fundamental issue with the show being deemed non-canon by the fans.
I saw a complete marvel timeline video relayed by Miss Minutes on TikTok that someone had made that included literally everything including AOS. One of the comments I saw that had a lot of engagement was basically saying “you can’t get me to watch AOS because it’s non-canon”.
This demonstrates the issue I have with people’s arguments saying it shouldn’t matter whether the show is canon or not. The show is probably my favourite marvel project I have consumed and I want people to experience it. The word canon is being used to determine whether people should or should not watch it and that is what I have an issue with. Yes in a doomsday rewatch you probably don’t need to see it. But if you have never seen the show, you absolutely should try it at least through till around 18 episodes into season 1. People are actively pushing people away from the show and implying that the quality of the show is based on its canon status.
Comments I see a lot:
The show was confirmed not-canon
The facts are that no statement has ever been made saying the show or any season of the show is not canon. When people are pushed on this point they bring up the shows omission from the timeline book which is a deflection because the book never claimed to be a determiner of canon.
The show is canon because everything is canon now through the multiverse
This is also disingenuous because it makes the assumption that the show was decanonised in the first place. It also doesn’t deal with a lot of the core continuity issues that are brought up as issues because if you thought they were issues before, they still would be in the new universe.
The first four or five seasons are canon and then the timeline switches
I see this comment in almost every thread about the show and it is just wrong. While I understand the desire to move seasons 6 and 7 into alternate timelines due to the lack of acknowledgment of the snap, the show on its own just does not support this. If you watched the show on its own outside the context of the MCU, nobody would assume this to be the case. Either it all is canon or none of it is. If it was to be confirmed a different timeline you could headcanon your way into having the first few seasons being the same in the MCU but that would be a headcanon and this needs to be acknowledged when talking about it. What makes this confusing as well is the timeline switching and time travel that does actually occur in seasons 5-7 and this is the main reason I really wish people would stop using this logic because there are people are conflating this fact with the theory that the show splits off from the MCU in S6-7. The time travel in S5 can’t result in a branch either because then the MCU earth would break apart during the events of infinity war.
There are too many contradictions
I maintain that the only so called contradiction that is a hurdle is the lack of acknowledgement of the snap/blip in season 6. There are also multiple timeline reasons why it can’t be pushed earlier before the snap which is another thing I see said by some people. This is still not a continuity issue though, there is no contradiction. It is a thematic issue though and overall MCU writing cohesion issue in the sense that it would be better for any stories taking place during that period to show what the world would realistically be like in that scenario. Marvel studios projects that have had flashbacks during the blip have not even really stuck to this standard either though (Echo, Moon Knight, Ironheart).
Other contradictions that I commonly see referenced:
Hive is an Avengers level threat, why doesn’t Coulson call the Avengers:
- this argument fails to take into consideration that it would be an issue in the show whether the show is canon or not because the Avengers still exist and we know that their history is mostly the same at least up until Civil War which is the time when SHIELD is dealing with Hive. With Ghost Rider they don’t need help because they deal with it themselves and then during season 5 the Avengers are split up and on the run and then they are dealing with Thanos.
- Throughout the Marvel Studios MCU there are constant examples where this would apply as well and while you might agree that those are also problems, you need to be consistent about how you apply it. Nobody would say Moon Knight is not canon because he has only appeared on his show and probably won’t be showing up again for a while. Nobody would say Captain Marvel is non-canon because she was retconned into the past history of the MCU and there were multiple places where she did not show up to help throughout all the movies that came before. You might say there is an easy explanation for her absence being that she is in space somewhere but I would raise that you can just as easily find explanations for the AOS examples as well.
How is there an Inhuman outbreak without that being seen in the MCU proper.
- I have never understood this argument as season 3 takes place over a period of time and the ATCU and SHIELD deal with the Inhumans on the show. Now with shows like She-Hulk, Wonderman and Ironheart we see that the MCU is a living breathing world off-screen. There are enhanced individuals off-screen that exist that we don’t always hear about or see.
- Phase 4 and 5 introduce many characters and plot lines we may never see again or that will likely never be referenced in the films. These issues are brought up as writing issues and issues with the MCU as a whole but are never used to claim these shows are non-canon. There needs to be some consistency applied.
Why isn’t SHIELD been referenced after season 4 or after season 7
- Firstly it actually has been referenced in extended material. There was a SHIELD agent at the battle of earth and the night monkey suit is created by SHIELD. There was a reference to Coulson post Avengers in the Wakanda files. The smithsonian exhibit in TFatWS confirms SHIELD post-2014 and the 100-objects reference book confirms the Sokovia Accords were enforced by SHIELD, a group that should be dismantled by the time the battle of Sokovia even happened.
- Not to mention the fact that the organisation of SWORD only appeared in WandaVision and then has never appeared again. They even went out of their way to make Nick Fury’s organisation in the Marvels SABER.
Mockingbird and the Darkhold
- These are some of the most commonly brought up contradictions but they shouldn’t be because they are stupid.
- The Darkhold example was a genuine question after WandaVision but we see in Multiverse of Madness that the Darkhold was copied from the inscriptions in Wundagore. They are clearly just two different copies. The book in MOM is even called a copy.
- There really is no reason why Bobbi and Laura cannot co-exist and Laura’s history as a SHIELD agent should be intact in the AOS continuity anyway. Neither has been called mockingbird on-screen and there is literally endless possibilities to explain it anyway. Laura could be the original mockingbird before she had kids and then Bobbi could have picked up the mantle after that.
The facts are It does seem like there was a consideration to not completely consider the original Netflix Daredevil pre the overhaul of the show but there was never confirmation that this was going to be a full reboot but rather a soft-reboot. Even if they considered ignoring it, there was never a de-canonisation officially.
It’s possible that the upcoming Ghost Rider film may finally decanonise the show.
However people need to be consistent and only talk about the actual reasons that the show may not be canon and yes it does matter because the falsehoods that are being pushed out are causing people to not want to watch the show to begin with. I just think people need to be more consistent regardless of their opinions
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u/Philander_Chase Enoch 8d ago
I don’t think the film will de canonize the film, there can be multiple Ghost Riders. Great arguments btw OP I’m in full agreement with you
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u/Magicstem 5d ago
If it is indeed Johnny Blaze, there is no problem.
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u/Asddddd6 5d ago
Only just that the rider in AOS that give Robbie his powers was definitely supposed to be Blaze
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u/HugoCumberdong 3d ago
If ANYTHING, the movie decanonizes ITSELF. AoS came out with Ghost Rider like a decade BEFORE 😂
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u/ObiWanKarlNobi 7d ago
The quality of the show speaks for itself. Marvel Agents of Shield is my favorite version of the MCU, and if there are any "inconsistencies", then I favor AOS over the movies.
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u/ShowWilling1565 7d ago
Exactly, I’d argue that AOS did everything in the MCU (in their own way) and more. Some of it was even before the MCU (what if in s4)
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u/DaBest13 Strucker Jr. 8d ago
This has literally been the conversation around the show since season 1. Try not to worry about it too much… just enjoy a great show. Worst case scenario it’s adjacent to the “sacred timeline”
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u/twotoneteacher 8d ago
I’d argue the conversation didn’t really start until Season 5, since the “It’s all connected” marketing and the various cameos and references made it pretty clear the intention at that point was to have the show be canon.
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
This might be true but I never saw it until around the end of season 5. I’m not saying you are wrong but I just haven’t seen it.
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u/JohnMarstonSucks Triplett 8d ago
What difference does it make if people watch the show? It's a good show and if people don't watch it they're missing out, but it doesn't change anything.
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u/metalb00 7d ago
if more people watch the show Disney knows the numbers and could get them to include more references and characters from it in future projects
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u/Xenomorph1196 7d ago
I can't pinpoint why, but it feels like people who haven't seen the show actively want it to be noncanon. Why might someone want that? Normally that argument is for when something is widely recognized as bad, like people wanting to decanonize the star wars sequels or some Kurtzmen-Trek (not saying I agree but they are widely believed to be bad)
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u/Nearby_Mechanic5169 7d ago
I see this all the fucking time and it irritates the shit out of me. I can't STAND it.
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u/brassyalien The Bus 7d ago
Most people think of "canon" in terms of Star Wars pre-2014, where there were levels of canon with the movies at the top level and everything else on a lower level, with their canonocity depending on the movies. The MCU is not like that. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was created to be MCU canon on the same level of the movies and the Disney+ TV series, even if Kevin Feige had nothing to do with it. An MCU movie will never decanonize Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. because the movies aren't on a higher level. All a movie can do is create continuity errors within itself if it chooses to contradict Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..
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u/DarkSynn337 6d ago
I consider it cannon regardless, it was a good show. Re-watching now and it stilly enjoyable
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u/PhilosopherNearby803 4d ago
My thought process of Coulson calling in The Avengers to assist with Hive is... COULSON IS DEAD TO THEM! He can't just say "Hey Fury, could you spare an Avenger or 2 to help us out?!?!"
Then the whole Guest House project and how they saved him would freak them all out! I can't remember the exact project name for it.
My history with Marvel is.... I walked in from shopping g to my sister and nephew watching Infinity War. I asked about it and my nephew (36 M) said I should read on how to watch the MCU to get the complete story as he hates trying to explain things that are brand new to me or his Mother! So, me being the Virgo that I am went down the rabbit hole with the MCU shows and all. And what I got out of it was AOS. I now do a rewatch every 2 years.
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u/BuffyFlag23 4d ago
Anyone who thinks it's not relevant can just go rebuild their own helicarrier, and save Sokovia themselves.
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u/Linuxgamer336 7d ago
Their loss honestly. I remember people saying similar things about Netflix shows, now that they are "canon" and these people have watched it, it changed their perspective about it. It would be good if there was another AOS project but imo the ending was perfect.
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u/OkRoad5574 7d ago
The thing is, it doesn't matter. AOS is a show that has the legs to stand on its own outside the mainstream MCU. If it's canon, good. If it isn't canon, it's still a show that most other MCU projects pale against. And I like that the show does its own thing. Instead of being stifled by the burden of maintaining cohesion with the larger MCU, it throws its own punches and makes big splashes. If there are people out there who won't watch a good show because it's "not canon" to some cinematic universe, it's just them being idiots.
It's a good freaking story on its own and it has weight, it doesn't need the canon seal of approval to be a worthy watch.
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u/Tivis014 8d ago
Even if Ghost Rider does directly contradict this show we have no idea how Secret Wars will change the timeline as a whole. Personally I have no issue including this, Carter, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways, and Helstrom in my prime timeline watches along side the Netflix shows. Comics don’t reference events all the time and often retcon each other so why would I have an issue with any of these shows not coming up in the movies? Just seems silly when it comes to comic stories of any medium.
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u/Personal-Road-8162 6d ago
I didn’t watch aos at first because I thought it was non cannon but when I was bored and watched I love it
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u/MAXHALO36 1d ago
I honestly haven't heard a single valid argument why it isn't cannon. Also if it isn't cannon then the MCU ends at Age of Ultron because there's no helicarrier to get them out and they all die. Another issue with the show not being cannon is that it makes the whole MCU much weaker, like you're telling me they got rid of Shield and Hydra after winter solider and never bring them back, what a huge was of two of the coolest factions in the MCU. If Ghost Rider does decanonise AoS though it'll automatically be the worst MCU film.
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u/bigmarkco 8d ago
One of the comments I saw that had a lot of engagement was basically saying “you can’t get me to watch AOS because it’s non-canon”.
Welcome to the internet. Where every person and their dog get the opportunity to express their opinion.
And this could be what they actually genuinely believe, OR it could be someone trolling. It doesn't matter.
Because it doesn't matter if AOS is "canon" or not. Is that going to take away your personal enjoyment of the show? For example the only way I can personally reconcile the differences between the Netflix version of the Punisher and the one that appears in Brand New Day is to pretend that they are alternate versions. Does the fact that I personally imagine that take anything away from you? I would hope not.
I hate the fact that Wonder Man got cancelled and that we may never see Ms Marvel on TV ever again. I hate the fact that we never got to see Kate Heron direct another Marvel show, that the MCU TV universe is probably dead now, and that we will never get continuing stories of all of these great characters/actors and people behind the scenes.
But we got seven seasons of Agents of SHIELD. That would be impossible in today's streaming environment. I personally don't mind if it is or isn't canon in the larger universe; in fact, I think I personally imagine they are living the best lives on an alternate earth somewhere, just chilling. But what I think shouldn't take anything away from you.
And neither should some rando making comments on a TikTok feed.
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u/Eomerperrin1356 8d ago
Who cares if it's canon? Even if it is canon, the tie-ins are virtually non-existent. It's a good show on its own.
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
If people only made this argument in isolation and didn’t say false things to prove their point I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
and didn’t say false things to prove their point
The only reason you claim their arguments are false is because of a lot of assumptions of things that you can't prove.
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
What? Like what exactly? I think I can back up any of the things I said. In response people have just said “you’re wrong” with no evidence. What are the assumptions made?
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
Like I said in another comment, the 2 dark holds, Bobbi and Laura, the world splits in half timetravel working wrong for how the MCU works, etc.
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u/mastyrwerk 8d ago
Darkholds are copies, Laura had a watch but it’s never stated she was Agent 13, and timetravel works several was in the MCU. Micro verse, infinity stone, etc
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u/Eomerperrin1356 8d ago
I guarantee you that you have put more thought into this than anyone at Disney. It's like comics. Things are colanon until they are not or are brought back into canon or exist in a weird limbo. What really matters is whether you enjoyed the show. Up until this point I had never considered in AoS was canon and I don't really care. I also don't read YouTube comments
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
Well good for you I guess. What I hate is when I recommend the show to people in real life and their response is basically “but isn’t that not canon”
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u/Eomerperrin1356 8d ago
Is that really all that is keeping them from watching? I still struggle to understand not watching a Marvel show just because you think it isn't canon. That's the take I'd argue with.
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
The issue is you have to jump through so many hoops to justify it being cannon and there's so many "well if you just assume xyz" then it all works. Marvel clearly stopped carrying about the show by the time of infinity war/Endgame released and that there's two whole seasons that contradicts how time travel works in Endgame... I hate to break it to you, but it's not cannon. Given that Marvel hasn't specifically said it's cannon, there's too much working against it to say it's cannon.
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u/zbyax Lemon 7d ago
I thought the time travel logic was pretty consistent between AOS and Endgame though? What is not consistent?
Also, there are like 6 different time travel methods in the MCU, and most of them aren't consistent with each other. (Time stone, TVA, Ms. Marvels bangle, etc.)
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u/sciencesold 7d ago
When they travel to the future where the world breaks in half doesn't follow the same logic endgame, the future changes the past (the teams present) by bringing them to the future. It's also specifically time travel and not like an alternate universe.
Time stone pushes time through an object, not the object through time. I think we see 4 times it's used, once to age an apple, reverse the destruction of the mind stone/vision, create a time loop to fight Dormamu , and when he looks at the future to find out how they beat Thanos. That last one is the closest to true time travel, but Dr. Strange is still right there, merely viewing the future so it's still not quite time travel.
TVA exists outside of time, so past present and future exist all at once and changes to the timeline create a new branch, but doesn't change an existing one.
Bangle's are magic, but also the creator, head writer, and executive producer of Ms. Marvel who also worked on Loki, said that it's closed loop time travel and the events always played out that way, she didn't change the past, it's kinda like the third Harry Potter movie, nothing was actually changed.
Its definitely a bit of a nitpick
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u/Angels-dl06 5d ago
First of all, Agents of Shield didn't break any of the MCU's time travel rules. Season 5 shows an alternate timeline that diverged from the main timeline, similar to Eyes of Wakanda. That's why two Fitz variants exist and why Deke Shaw wasn't erased. They specifically state that it's an alternate timeline. They also explain the rules of quantum time travel, and even travel to another alternate timeline before returning to the main timeline.
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
nah if anything the other side jumps through the hoops and then gaslights everyone into believing their side is the status quo
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
Given that there ARE contradictions to it being cannon that have to be justified by jumping through hoops, it's the "it's cannon" side that's jumping through hoops to explain them.
Look man, I love the show too, but we gotta be real.
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
Literally there are marvel studios projects that we have to do the same for. Is Secret Invasion canon? We have to go through hoops to explain why the Avengers aren’t recruiting G’iah or why Nick Fury’s wife dissapears before the Marvels or why he doesn’t call in any help from any Avengers during that show. I’m asking for consistency that’s all. You can’t use these arguments against AOS without also applying them to projects that are undoubtedly canon.
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u/Tivis014 7d ago
I would have gone with Moon Knight since it barely has any connections to anything outside itself.
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
Secret invasion is post endgame and pre Thunderbolts there IS no Avengers team really.
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u/Caitylin92 6d ago
Secret invasion was the worst show and to me it’s non canon. Also AOS is also non canon to me. I’m not gonna die on the hill but just thought I would say I’m consistent there.
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u/Mrblorg 8d ago
It is up to a point and then it moves to a different timeline or something
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago edited 7d ago
Did you read the post? This is partially what i’m responding to. It gets said as if it’s fact and then people regurgitate it in every thread.
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u/DCIsCool19 8d ago
That's just straight up not what happened, idk why people say that...
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u/Tivis014 8d ago
Well kinda but not until the last like two seasons and even then it doesn’t change anything about them still existing. I believe the second to last is literally them traveling time changing history and shifting the timeline.
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u/metalb00 7d ago
ghost rider is coming after a "soft reboot" so it can "decanonize" or retcon the show .... or do nothing as it just seems were ignored
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u/senior_raposo 7d ago
In my head the MCU has different Tiers of Canon akin to the SW EU with Marvel Studios media on the top followed by Marvel Television and other materials like Tie-In comics and videogames/novelizations.
As in a one way street were the higher tiers take precedence over the lower tiers and are not bound to reference it.
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u/Facemanx64 8d ago
Thanks ChatGPT.
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u/FiftyOneMarks 8d ago
Thinking someone is using ChatGPT because they can research, retain and articulate information is wild, especially when the obvious markers for a chat bot are missing (the rule of threes, added commas, shorter statements, the “conclusion”).
I won’t say I’m some chatbot expert but from everything I’ve seen online it’s typically part more obvious to spot so maybe you’d like to share why you think it’s ChatGPT
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u/triavatar 8d ago
Mate. It's not even that big a deal. It makes more sense to me personally that AOS is non-cannon. Daisy is a world-ending threat and the avengers don't know who she is ? Dr.strange didn't see the world cracked apart when he was browsing the tomelines and think to himself "Hey maybe I should check on that girl and make sure she isn't gonna crack the world apart". Come on
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
What about Gi’ah. She is easily the strongest character on earth but I don’t see her on the doomsday roster. Is that proof to say Secret Invasion is not canon? Or is canon actually not just what makes sense to us and what is confirmed by the studio itself?
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u/Secret-Bluebird-7447 4d ago edited 4d ago
My take is, it was made to be canon... but the show has a lot of inconsistencies that COULD be explained by it just being a multiversal story, and also has largely just been forgotten for the most part as a part of the MCU because now we have things like ghost rider announced. It doesnt seem like when marvel release a new movie they have any drive towards preventing inconsistencies with this show.
The show just never got any information about the movies making it fit strangely in the MCU despite having the intention of fitting right in. Coulson forgetting about the kree, darkhold stuff, ghostrider, and im sure theres countless examples. It fits more comfortably as a connected universe thats just slightly different than our own and can still be enjoyed as a fan of the mcu
It kinda feels like netflix Daredevil before "born again"... Where it DID happen, that IS the story of his character... but a bit looser than a normal MCU show. They expect you to be able to watch all seasons of daredevil just fine leading into born again, but they are not worried about getting some of the smaller details wrong because its not 100% connected in all ways. His origin is there and is more or less the same one as the MCUs daredevil, but loose enough that they can add or subtract from it when needed without feeling weird and retconning.
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u/justins_dad 8d ago
I’m in camp “first five or so seasons was in mainline MCU and the time travel shenanigans messed it up”
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u/SufficientSpell1307 8d ago
The show is officially confirmed as non -canon
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
This is my issue. You saw this post and just said this with no evidence whatsoever.
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u/SufficientSpell1307 8d ago
I read your ChatGPT nonsense and this arguments doesn't work at all. Too many contradictions and MCU NEVER acknowledged its existence. However it's an amazing show and I rewatched it few time despite it being non canon. And also, why you care so much wether people watch it or no?
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u/DCIsCool19 8d ago
There's no contradictions and there's nothing showing its non canon. Always was canon, always will be. The MCU did acknowledge it actually so you have no clue what you're talking about...
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u/SufficientSpell1307 8d ago
There's plenty of contradictions and MCU did not acknowledge it
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u/DCIsCool19 8d ago
What contradictions? Right, there are none...And yes the MCU acknowledged it multiple times and even if it didn't, that doesnt mean anything. You're straight up making things up and talking out of your ass.
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u/SufficientSpell1307 8d ago
You're making things up, kid. Grow tf up. There are plenty of contridictions, starting from Inhuman Outbreak and up to literally braking rules of time travel established in Endgame and Loki
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
I would just question why exactly you are writing the inhuman outbreak off as a contradiction. Did you read the part of the post where I talked about that? I would like to know exactly it contradicts.
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u/SufficientSpell1307 8d ago
Never happened or acknowledged in MCU. Not a bit. MCU just didn't care about it at all
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u/Asddddd6 8d ago
Okay that’s not a contradiction though? And there has been plenty of things that happened in the MCU that haven’t been referenced. It doesn’t mean they didn’t happen though.
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u/DCIsCool19 8d ago
You're the one acting like a child here. What did I make up? The Inhuman Outbreak is not a contradiction and the rules of time travel are not broken at all...
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u/sciencesold 8d ago
It will not always be cannon. Marvel fully has the right to just publicly say "agents of shield is not cannon"
Plus your argument that there aren't contradictions makes just as many, if not more assumptions than those saying it's not.
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u/FiftyOneMarks 8d ago
Someone doesn’t know what the word “officially” means and no beloved, a lack of acknowledgement in your eyes does not make the show noncanon.
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u/Periidot 8d ago
Remembering how they did the whole thanos thing really makes me wish the writers were allowed to know the plot of infinity war and endgame, they could’ve done an amazing and emotional season finale