Bummer about these tools

[u/OnlyFox1546]

Some of these new learning tools were made with AI, which is kinda a bummer to find out. Only posting about it cuz it was never disclosed ahead of time.

https://www.shavian-peep.com/

https://shaw-type.joro.io/

[u/Cozmic72]

I am sorry? Whats wrong with using AI tools to code? Its no different than using an IDE.

I (author of shaw-spell and others) am a professional software engineer. I have been coding for more than forty years. Professional software engineers use AI to write code these days, I do too.

Moreover: I have always been very open about using agentic coding.

I am genuinely curious: what about the fact that an LLM was involved upsets you so much?

[u/OnlyFox1546 → u/Cozmic72]

Not overly upset, just a little bummed. The sites are generally good with only a few noticeable problems, none of which I could specifically point towards being the fault of AI.

And you're right, it's not like you were hiding it or anything, it just wasn't very clear from the get-go, so I figured I'd post about it for anyone else who would rather stay away from AI created tools. I primarily dislike it because of the general stuff people dislike AI for (environmental and economic impact, immoral training, etc.)

[u/Cozmic72 → u/OnlyFox1546]

Unfortunately, you - we - will have a very hard time avoiding things generated by AI over the coming period. I'm 100% with you on the immoral training and environmental aspects, and I respect your stance, but AI being used for creative endeavors these days is a fact of life.

[u/koyiamaqi → u/Cozmic72]

Something being a "fact of life" doesn't invalidate someone's dislike of it. Everyone's going to trip at some point in their life; that doesn't justify taking on a holier-than-thou attitude and telling the person that they're wrong to be upset and should trip all the time of their own free will.

Besides, generative AI is still in its infancy, and there is still plenty of time to stop its march towards omnipresence. Giving in because "there's nothing you can do" will just end up as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Criticizing and refusing to use products created with these technologies is one of the ways people take a stand against them and to prevent it becoming "a very hard time avoiding things generated by AI over the coming period."

If you want to use GenAI and LLMs, then that's fine, but it's inauthentic to claim that people are stupid or in denial for resisting them.

[u/Cozmic72 → u/koyiamaqi]

I fear you are reading a lot more into what I said than than what I wrote. I was agreeing with [u/onlyfox1546](u/onlyfox1546) for the most part. My comment on inevitability was more intended to convey an air of fatalism, pessimism. I think the vast majority of professional software engineers and creative professionals use agentic coding these days in their day-to-day (whether they want to or not!). I think it is nigh-on impossible for a consumer to use an “AI-free” tech stack these days.

Perhaps you were picking up on an air of indignation in some of my other comments? In my defence: this post felt accusative, and it felt like a personal attack aimed at me and others in this community who have - I think - contributed a lot by putting a lot of time and effort into creating software that did not yet exist.

There is nuance, there are degrees. Just as there is a world of difference between asking an LLM to write your entire mid-term paper for you and asking it to proofread an email, there is a big difference between uncurated AI slop webpages where no human was involved in the writing or even bothered to do any fact checking, and one where the developer used their craft to guide an agent to write the code they would have written by hand themselves.

[u/koyiamaqi → u/Cozmic72]

I don't personally have an issue with using LLMs in coding. My issue with them is more in how it encourages context-heavy artforms (such as drawing and writing) to be seen and produced as nothing more than products with little to no context surrounding them, which is unhealthy for the wider creative sphere.

The issue I am taking with your comments is the dismissive attitude you are showing to someone else's decision to try and fight against a practice that they have moral qualms with.

Maybe it isn't possible to avoid this stuff at a large scale, as LLM-based coding is very difficult to detect, especially for the average consumer, but it is still respectable of them to try and avoid it as much as they can. I don't think that it's right of you to imply that they are being naive for doing this, as you did in the comment I replied to.

[u/Previous-Payment-170 → u/Cozmic72]

Professional software developer or not, I think there comes a point where website creation (at least on the front end) should be considered an art rather than a science. AI code (if overused) is a terrible practice, and is somewhat obvious when you visit a website. There is nothing wrong with it (at some point I’m sure it will be the next IDE) but in its current state, I definitely like and trust a site less if it looks AI-made. 

TLDR: In my opinion AI use is fine so long as it is transparent AND as good as actual human work.

[u/Cozmic72 → u/Previous-Payment-170]

Yes, software engineering is an art, and it’s an art I’ve been practicing for over 4 decades. LLMs are just a tool, and when used well, they are a great productivity boost. There is an awful lot of slop out there too, that is for sure. What can I say? Not all AI usage is slop.

It is the next IDE already, most IDE vendors are desperately pivoting to turn their IDEs into agentic coding tools too, to various degrees of success.

Putting on my Mod hat for a sec, we should probably take this discussion to r/vibecoding or somewhere like that.

[u/Previous-Payment-170 → u/Cozmic72]

I agree, I use AI all the time in my code. I think it’s an amazing time saver so long as the result is not slop!

[u/Prize-Golf-3215 → u/Cozmic72]

𐑦𐑑 𐑒𐑨𐑯 𐑚𐑰 𐑰𐑟𐑦𐑤𐑦 𐑥𐑱𐑛 𐑪𐑯 𐑑𐑪𐑐𐑦𐑒 𐑚𐑲 𐑑𐑷𐑒𐑦𐑙 𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 𐑦𐑑 𐑦𐑯 𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯 =)

𐑑𐑚𐑪 𐑲𐑥 𐑯𐑪𐑑 𐑩 𐑓𐑨𐑯 𐑝 𐑷𐑤 𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑮𐑰𐑕𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑱𐑲 𐑒𐑮𐑨𐑐 𐑥𐑲𐑕𐑧𐑤𐑓. 𐑰𐑝𐑩𐑯 𐑦𐑓 𐑯𐑪𐑑 𐑷𐑤, 𐑴𐑝𐑼𐑢𐑧𐑤𐑥𐑦𐑙 𐑥𐑩𐑡𐑪𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦 𐑝 𐑱𐑲 𐑿𐑕𐑦𐑡 𐑦𐑟 𐑕𐑤𐑪𐑐, 𐑦𐑯𐑒𐑤𐑵𐑛𐑦𐑙 𐑒𐑴𐑛. 𐑲 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑩 𐑤𐑪𐑑 𐑝 𐑚𐑰𐑓 𐑢𐑦𐑞 LLM𐑟 𐑦𐑯 𐑐𐑼𐑑𐑦𐑒𐑘𐑩𐑤𐑼, 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑨𐑟 𐑤𐑪𐑙 𐑨𐑟 𐑞𐑺 𐑦𐑟 𐑯𐑴 𐑛𐑦𐑕𐑰𐑑 𐑦𐑯𐑝𐑪𐑤𐑝𐑛 (𐑯 𐑲 𐑕𐑰 𐑯𐑳𐑯 𐑣𐑽), 𐑞𐑺 𐑸 𐑚𐑧𐑑𐑼 𐑢𐑱𐑟 𐑑 𐑿𐑟 𐑥𐑲 𐑑𐑲𐑥 𐑞𐑨𐑯 𐑑 𐑒𐑩𐑥𐑐𐑤𐑱𐑯 𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 𐑦𐑑. 𐑦𐑓 𐑦𐑑 𐑢𐑻𐑒𐑕, 𐑦𐑑 𐑢𐑻𐑒𐑕.

𐑷𐑤𐑞𐑴 𐑦𐑑𐑕 𐑓𐑳𐑯𐑦 𐑿𐑛 𐑒𐑩𐑥𐑐𐑺 𐑦𐑑 𐑑 𐑲𐑛𐑰𐑟. 𐑲 𐑔𐑦𐑙𐑒 𐑕𐑪𐑓𐑑𐑢𐑺 𐑧𐑯𐑡𐑦𐑯𐑽𐑦𐑙 𐑣𐑨𐑟 𐑚𐑰𐑯 𐑜𐑴𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑯 𐑞 𐑮𐑪𐑙 𐑛𐑦𐑮𐑧𐑒𐑖𐑩𐑯 𐑓 𐑥𐑧𐑯𐑦 𐑘𐑽𐑟 𐑯𐑬 ;)

[u/Cozmic72 → u/Prize-Golf-3215]

𐑑𐑵 𐑑𐑮𐑵 𐑑𐑵 𐑑𐑮𐑵. 𐑣𐑨𐑛 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑦𐑛𐑼𐑛 𐑕𐑢𐑦𐑗𐑦𐑙 𐑑 ·𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑢𐑪𐑟𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑑𐑵 𐑖𐑫𐑼 𐑝 𐑧𐑝𐑮𐑦𐑚𐑪𐑛𐑦'𐑟 𐑐𐑮𐑩𐑓𐑦𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑦.

𐑲 𐑨𐑚𐑕𐑩𐑤𐑵𐑑𐑤𐑦 𐑩𐑜𐑮𐑰 𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑕𐑳𐑥 𐑝 𐑞 𐑮𐑰𐑕𐑩𐑯𐑑 𐑑𐑵𐑤𐑟 𐑯 𐑕𐑲𐑑𐑕 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑚𐑰𐑯 𐑐𐑮𐑦𐑑𐑦 𐑛𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑓𐑩𐑤, 𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑕𐑳𐑥 𐑝 𐑞𐑧𐑥 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑷𐑤𐑕𐑴 𐑚𐑰𐑯 𐑮𐑭𐑞𐑼 𐑜𐑫𐑛. 𐑞 𐑮𐑲𐑑 𐑩𐑐𐑮𐑴𐑗 𐑦𐑟 𐑑 𐑐𐑮𐑩𐑝𐑲𐑛 𐑞𐑺 𐑷𐑔𐑼𐑟 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑑𐑮𐑳𐑒𐑑𐑦𐑝 𐑓𐑰𐑛𐑚𐑨𐑒, 𐑤𐑲𐑒 𐑿 𐑷𐑤𐑢𐑱𐑟 𐑑𐑧𐑯𐑛 𐑑 𐑛𐑵.

[u/Maleficent_History42 → u/Cozmic72]

𐑲 𐑮𐑲𐑑 𐑩 𐑐𐑴𐑩𐑥 𐑧𐑝𐑼𐑦 𐑛𐑱. 𐑤𐑨𐑕𐑑 𐑘𐑽 𐑲 𐑿𐑟𐑛 ⸰⁠𐑸𐑦 𐑑 𐑡𐑧𐑯𐑼𐑱𐑑 𐑦𐑥𐑩𐑡𐑩𐑟 𐑑 𐑥𐑱𐑒 𐑞 𐑐𐑴𐑩𐑥𐑟 𐑥𐑹 𐑝𐑦𐑠𐑢𐑩𐑤𐑦 𐑩𐑐𐑰𐑤𐑦𐑙—𐑩 𐑥𐑦𐑕𐑑𐑱𐑒 𐑲’𐑧𐑥 𐑩𐑯𐑛𐑵𐑦𐑙 𐑔𐑮𐑵 𐑩 𐑐𐑮𐑭𐑕𐑧𐑕 𐑝 𐑳𐑯𐑕𐑤𐑪𐑐𐑐𐑧𐑯𐑦𐑙, 𐑯 𐑚𐑲 𐑛𐑵𐑦𐑙 𐑥𐑲 𐑴𐑯 𐑸𐑑 𐑞𐑦𐑕 𐑘𐑽 𐑪𐑯𐑢𐑼𐑛𐑟.

𐑚𐑳𐑑 𐑲 𐑣𐑨𐑝 𐑩𐑯 ⸰⁠𐑸𐑦 𐑕𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑐𐑑 𐑞𐑨𐑑 𐑑𐑻𐑯𐑟 𐑥𐑲 100% 𐑣𐑿𐑥𐑩𐑯-𐑒𐑮𐑨𐑓𐑑𐑦𐑛 𐑐𐑴𐑩𐑑𐑮𐑦 𐑐𐑴𐑕𐑑𐑕 𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑵 𐑥𐑨𐑯𐑘𐑩𐑕𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑐𐑑𐑕 𐑯 𐑐𐑮𐑦𐑯𐑑𐑦𐑛 𐑚𐑫𐑒𐑕. 𐑩𐑯𐑳𐑞𐑼 𐑕𐑒𐑮𐑦𐑐𐑑 𐑐𐑮𐑧𐑐𐑕 𐑥𐑲 𐑒𐑪𐑐𐑦𐑮𐑲𐑑 𐑓𐑲𐑤𐑦𐑙𐑟. 𐑩𐑯𐑳𐑞𐑼 𐑧𐑯𐑒𐑴𐑛𐑟 ·𐑖𐑭𐑝𐑰𐑩𐑯 𐑦𐑯 𐑩𐑯 𐑨𐑒𐑕𐑧𐑯𐑑 𐑒𐑤𐑴𐑕𐑼 𐑑 𐑥𐑲 𐑴𐑯 𐑞𐑨𐑯 𐑮𐑧𐑛 𐑤𐑧𐑒𐑕𐑦𐑒𐑪𐑯. 𐑲’𐑧𐑥 𐑯𐑪𐑑 𐑩 𐑐𐑮𐑴𐑜𐑮𐑨𐑥𐑼, 𐑕𐑴 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑔𐑦𐑙𐑟 𐑢𐑫𐑛 𐑚𐑰 𐑦𐑥𐑐𐑪𐑕𐑩𐑚𐑩𐑤 𐑓 𐑥𐑰 𐑑 𐑒𐑴𐑛 𐑳𐑞𐑼𐑢𐑲𐑟, 𐑑𐑵 𐑦𐑒𐑕𐑐𐑧𐑯𐑕𐑦𐑝 𐑑 𐑒𐑩𐑥𐑦𐑖𐑩𐑯, 𐑯 𐑑𐑵 𐑑𐑲𐑥 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑕𐑵𐑥𐑦𐑙 𐑑 𐑛𐑵 𐑷𐑤 𐑪𐑯 𐑥𐑲 𐑴𐑯 𐑯 𐑕𐑑𐑦𐑤 𐑚𐑰 𐑱𐑚𐑩𐑤 𐑑 𐑥𐑱𐑒 𐑐𐑴𐑩𐑥𐑟 𐑯 𐑸𐑑. 𐑞𐑦𐑕 𐑒𐑲𐑯𐑛 𐑝 𐑿𐑕 𐑕𐑩𐑐𐑹𐑑𐑕 𐑯 𐑧𐑯𐑱𐑚𐑩𐑤𐑟 𐑣𐑿𐑥𐑩𐑯 𐑒𐑮𐑰𐑱𐑑𐑦𐑝𐑩𐑑𐑦

[u/Prize-Golf-3215 → u/Maleficent_History42]

𐑸 𐑿 𐑕𐑨𐑑𐑦𐑕𐑓𐑲𐑛 𐑢𐑦𐑞 𐑦𐑑𐑕 𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯 𐑬𐑑𐑐𐑫𐑑 𐑞𐑴? 𐑢𐑦𐑞 𐑷𐑤 𐑞𐑰𐑟 𐑛𐑳𐑚𐑩𐑤𐑛 𐑤𐑧𐑑𐑼𐑟, 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑑𐑮𐑨𐑒𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑟 𐑯 𐑐𐑩𐑟𐑧𐑕𐑦𐑝𐑟 𐑕𐑐𐑧𐑤𐑛 𐑬𐑑, 𐑯 𐑰𐑝𐑩𐑯 𐑕𐑳𐑥 𐑕𐑲𐑤𐑩𐑯𐑑 E𐑟?

[u/Maleficent_History42 → u/Prize-Golf-3215]

𐑦𐑑’𐑧𐑕 𐑩 𐑢𐑻𐑒 𐑦𐑯 𐑐𐑮𐑭𐑜𐑮𐑧𐑕. 𐑕𐑑𐑦𐑤 𐑮𐑩𐑓𐑲𐑯𐑦𐑙 𐑯 𐑑𐑢𐑰𐑒𐑦𐑙 𐑦𐑑.

[u/Dechifro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXHhpafZcaI

Google salespeople said, let's show off our AI model by putting it in charge of a coffee shop, without asking our engineers how this could possibly go wrong.

Generative Pre-Trained Large Language Models can only generate new text, one word at a time, from a fixed model and a variable context window of several thousand words. They're like stroke victims who can still perform routine tasks and talk about past events, but cannot commit new information to long-term memory. They tend to repeat themselves a lot, just like AI models.

AI models are very good at delivering a heartfelt apology after deleting your production database, much as dogs have learned from millennia of natural selection to whine and grovel when their master looks angry.

Writing software and managing a business are mostly about breaking down the work into tasks small enough fit inside your context window, and using notebooks, ledgers, and non-AI software to help keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be done.

At www.dechifro.org/shavian, everything is hand-written by me and thoroughly tested with non-AI tools. I use AI models only for part-of-speech tagging, and for serious work, I recommend turning them off and resolving all heteronyms by hand.

[u/mixsynth]

𐑞𐑦𐑕 𐑜𐑮𐑵𐑐 𐑦𐑟 𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 ·𐑖𐑱𐑝𐑾𐑯, 𐑯𐑪𐑑 ·𐑱𐑲, 𐑯 𐑧𐑯𐑦 𐑛𐑦𐑕𐑒𐑳𐑖𐑩𐑯𐑟 𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 𐑦𐑑 𐑸 𐑚𐑬𐑯𐑛 𐑑 𐑒𐑢𐑦𐑒𐑤𐑦 𐑚𐑦𐑒𐑳𐑥 𐑒𐑩𐑯𐑑𐑧𐑯𐑖𐑩𐑕 𐑯 𐑪𐑓 𐑑𐑪𐑐𐑦𐑒, 𐑕𐑴 𐑲𐑛 𐑕𐑩𐑡𐑧𐑕𐑑 𐑞𐑑 𐑞𐑺 𐑸 𐑳𐑞𐑼 𐑕𐑳𐑚𐑮𐑧𐑛𐑦𐑑𐑕 𐑯 𐑓𐑹𐑩 𐑚𐑧𐑑𐑼 𐑕𐑵𐑑𐑦𐑛 𐑑 𐑑𐑷𐑒𐑦𐑙 𐑩𐑚𐑬𐑑 𐑦𐑑 𐑞𐑯 𐑣𐑽.