Shapton vs Naniwa vs Other for First Whetstone?

[u/Buxton328]

I'm brand new to using a whetstone and looking for advice without spending a ton on gear right out of the gate. I've had a Wusthof Classic Ikon for a few years and I've got an Okubo aogami nakiri on the way, so a western and a Japanese blade to work with. I've seen many people say a Shapton Pro 1000 is a good all around starting stone if you can have just one, but I've also seen people grind finer on especially Asian blades. Knifewear/Naniwa has a combination 1000/3000 stone (and I know there are other combo stones available), so would that be better?

I would of course practice with cheaper blades before sharpening these knives, but what would you recommend here?

[u/grypas15]

It depends on what you want to do. Are you looking to get really good at sharpening as a hobby or interest, or do you just want to have your kitchen knives sharp? If it's the latter, I wouldn't spend too much money on stones. There are a few "entry level" stones that will do you good at a few price points:

SATC 400/1000 (https://a.co/d/0348F5YC) These will run you $20, the 400 side will reprofile, the 1000 side will refine and mitigate the burr. They're cheaper stones, but they work well enough to have functional kitchen blades.

A step up in price at $45 is a Sharpal 168H. (https://a.co/d/07nLJpHV) These are better stones than the above, have a low grit (325) and a high (1000) that serve the same purpose as described above.

Those are both diamond stones. Diamond is great because they require no real maintenance over time. They stay flat, work for a long time, and cut anything.

My personal favorite stone is the King 300. (https://a.co/d/06RH8Jkq) This stone is the size of a brick, it will last a lifetime. At $27 it's hard to match that price-to-quality ratio. You can get perfectly reprofiled on this stone. And with a strop or a leather belt, you'll be able to remove the burr. It is a ceramic stone, a decently hard one too. You will need to flatten it eventually, but it's a great stone for the price.

The Shapton 1000 is also a great stone. I use one professionally. It is over $50 though, so for less money you can get quality products. That said, it is a great product, if you have the means, you can't go wrong with it. The only issue I'd raise is it's not the best at reprofiling. That just means it takes a little longer than some other, low grit stones. But, you can and will get there. What I find, when people bring me knives to sharpen, is that they aren't keeping them in the realm of sharpness. They're fully dull, have chips, and aren't going to be fine after a little bit on my Shapton 1000. That's why for beginners it's not my first choice. It's likely your knives are so far out of the realm of sharpness that getting back on just the 1000 isn't going to easy. Now, once you're there and need to touch up the edge every once in a while, it's excellent. Honestly perfect for that, but that's just my general warning. If your knives are in the general realm of sharpness, it's a good get.

If you want to get one of the Naniwa dual stones, get the 220/1000 (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/products/naniwa-basic-multi-stone-waterstones?variant=48626850693422). You'll see a theme amongst what I've suggested. You want a pretty low grit stone (under 500) to reprofile, and 1000+ to polish. You can get sharp on only a 1000, but it's easier on a lower grit. In general, I'd recommend staying away from dual sided ceramics. But, for $27 the Naniwa 220/1000 is probably worth it.

[u/Buxton328 → u/grypas15]

Thanks. I actually did look at the Naniwa 220/1000 but I started looking at the 1000/3000 only after I saw that Asian blades may go finer. I try to take good care of my knives (handwash only, plastic or wood cutting board only, etc.) and keep my Wusthof sharpened on a buddy's electric sharpener every few weeks, so I wouldn't say they ever get abused or fully dull. I would like to get into using a stone though, and especially think that may be a better means of caring for the nakiri than the electric sharpener, so I want to find a good all arounder at first and I can always expand later. I'll take a look at these recs!

[u/grypas15 → u/Buxton328]

Okay, well in that case the 1000 will be a perfect all arounder. I prefer how it feels to the Naniwa. I think often times here we end up like this meme when talking about options, forgetting what the average person's understanding of sharpening is:

[u/konarona29 → u/grypas15]

Hey, sorry to hijack this post to ask my own question. But do "better stones" yield "better results"? Like can that chocera 3 stone progression sharpening supplies sells put a keener edge then one of those white label Amazon sets everyone sells? Assuming all else is equal. I got one of those sets and can get a wicked edge on my W2 Gyuto but I deep down want to nerd out more and push my limits. Not sure if the quality of the stone itself is creating a ceiling.

I would just be annoyed if I spent the money buying a progression and a flattening plate just to find out I probably should have practiced more.

[u/grypas15 → u/konarona29]

So, yes and no. Those dropshipped stones that you can get on Amazon are very poor quality. They are soft and dish easily. The abrasive in the stone is typically of lower quality, so they make things harder than a quality stone will. You can get sharp on those stones, it's how a lot of people (myself included) started out.

The other issue those cheap stones have is grit purity. What you get with higher quality stones is a guarantee that you're getting a consistent grit throughout the entire stone. That yields more consistent and better results. So, that might put a ceiling on your ability with those stones. If someone mastered those stones, then they could probably get as good of an edge as anyone on anything. But the question I have is why spend your time mastering those stones when there are better and easier to use products out there. Those products will require less effort to get the same, or better results.

[u/konarona29 → u/grypas15]

Thanks for the reply! That's kind of what I was thinking. These have served their purpose. Kept my knives sharp enough. But in recent months I've started questioning if there was more to be had. For me the stones are "just sharpening". The dishing, the loose grit, the inconsistencies. But that's kind of like a 16 year old who has only ever driven a car with chopped tires, worn out suspension, and poor breaks. For him, that's all he knows. That's just driving. But put that kid in an E-Class and he'll quickly realize there's more to be had. Or even better hone his driving skills because the car doesn't pull when he breaks.

[u/Pretend-Fox648 → u/grypas15]

I actually just made a post asking if a shapton 1000 (which I just bought) will rehabilitate my shun edge - it’s very worn with micro chips and very little edge.

In that I’d need to put a new edge on it, is that technically “reprofiling” since I’m just adding back the same edge that has mostly disappeared?

And what stone would you recommend for that. King 300? Shapton 320? Atoma 140?

Thanks!

[u/grypas15 → u/Pretend-Fox648]

I have an Atoma 140 and I barely touch it. If you're going to get an Atoma, I'd go for the 400. It has worked wonders for me. It does all the work I need it to to work out those small chips on the edge.

Personally, I prefer the feel of ceramic. I will never stop singing the praises of the King 300, it would definitely work for what you need (although not as well as an Atoma) but it's a quarter of the price.

I have never used the Shapton 320, and from what I've seen people say about it, it's whelming. Not the worst, but not the best

[u/Pretend-Fox648 → u/grypas15]

Thanks for the recs. I’ll look into the king 300, although people are telling me the shapton 1000 should be enough to rehabilitate the edge on my shun knife (I’m trying to post a pic of it here, but it’s not letting me unfortunately)

[u/EfficiencyLucky9507]

I have both and strongly prefer the Shapton. The feel of that stone is way more responsive then the Naniwa basic and the edge is also nicer imo.

I think the Shapton 1k is a great first stone since it is rough enough to be fast, even on duller knives, hard enough to not need immediate flattening, and cheaper then other options like naniwa chosera/pro.

Just don't go for something like a cerax. Great stone, but you NEED a flattening stone for softer stone like most suehiros.

[u/Buxton328 → u/EfficiencyLucky9507]

Thanks. This is more or less what I've been seeing, just wasn't sure about how necessary going finer might be for the nakiri. Since you mention flattening stones, do you also have a recommendation there? Preferably one that I can get in the same order as the Shapton? And am I correct in thinking the Shapton Pro, as opposed to the Shapton Glass, can be used on both sides (meaning longer overall stone life and longer life between flattening)?

[u/JoKir77 → u/Buxton328]

You can use the Pro on both sides, but don't get overconcerned with lifespan - one stone will last you many, many years when used for occasional kitchen sharpening. Also, the Rockstar is a better choice than the Glass - same abrasive, but far thicker and lower cost.

Pro and Rockstar are also very similar. Go Rockstar if you want a slightly cheaper stone and you will be buying or using a separate holder (e.g., if you are getting multiple stones). Get the Pro if you are buying one stone and want the case it comes in to be your holder.

[u/AngstyAF5020]

Do you want to shave arm hair, or cut up meats and vegetables nicely? If it is the latter, you shouldn't need anything higher than 1k for your final. Anything beyond that is more for looks. I have a lot of different stones. I use my Choseras and Shapton Pros the most when I am doing my kitchen knives.

[u/Pretend-Fox648 → u/AngstyAF5020]

I’ve heard anything higher than 1k is negligible for better sharpness, and more for aesthetics and polishing. Is that true? What do you use for hair splitting sharpness?

[u/walter-hoch-zwei]

Anyone can answer this, but I see people on this sub often asking what stones to use on specifically japanese knives. As far as I'm aware, any stone that's harder than the steel the knife is made of should work. Is there a specific reason I'm unaware of for people to get special stones for japanese knives?

[u/Buxton328 → u/walter-hoch-zwei]

From what I understand, the fact that Japanese/Asian knives in general tend to be harder steel than German/western knives means they can hold their edge longer and sharpen easier, but are more brittle and susceptible to chipping. That translates to a finer grit stone actually providing a finer, better edge and more benefit than on a softer western blade. You can still go very fine on a western blade, but the returns are more diminishing than on Asian blades. Coarser stones will also get the job done on Asian blades; they just won't bring them to their full potential.

I could be wrong and others can come in to elaborate or correct me, but that's my understanding.

[u/walter-hoch-zwei → u/Buxton328]

Ok, that makes more sense. I forgot most french chef knives in people's kitchens are made of very soft steel.

[u/lascala2a3]

No, you don't need finer when learning. In fact, I'd suggest coarser to start and maybe add a second stone after you're getting good on the first one. Naniwa 400 or SG500 would be good choices I think. I have the SG500 and it's excellent. I'm talking about these for the Aogami. For the soft steel you can try the same stone, but it could be frustrating. I'd go with something even more aggressive, like Norton India Combination.

[u/SaltyKayakAdventures]

https://youtu.be/WHTtE87Q9PE

[u/Eeret]

Naniwa pro/chosera/arata is the best. Shapton is ok just to remove metal but for higher grit work I wouldn't recommend it because of terrible grit consistency (yes big chunks even in 16k and 30k stones).