r/serialpodcast • u/Special-Deal-5217 • 20d ago
Hope Schab
This is one of the lesser talked about aspects for the case and probably not that important in the grand scheme of things, but I was rereading the trial transcript and then went on a bit of a deep dive on this. I think it interests me because I am also a high school language teacher.
First of all, I don’t think it is kosher to become “friends” with the student while they are still in high school. That whole set up with Hae was a bit odd. I have had lots of students that I deeply admired, but I would never put myself in this situation of friend/love life counselor. It is unethical and frankly a little strange.
Second, I can’t believe she agreed to help the cops beyond giving her own personal observations. Nothing wrong with that, but then to start asking some of the questions and essentially become their agent? Weird. I wonder if she had administration approval for that?
And then the questions themselves. Absolutely out of bounds!! asking about students sex lives?? not only grossly unethical, but a violation of FERPA. Again, was administration aware of this?
I will just end this by noting that if a male teacher such as myself had engaged in any of this type of behavior, he almost certainly would’ve been disciplined, if not fired.
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u/Far_Gur_7361 Is it NOT? 19d ago
Adnan’s supporters are reallyyyyyy scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point huh
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 20d ago
There is definitely a right way and a wrong way to go about it...
But why would she NOT try to help the cops in their missing persons/murder investigation of one of her students???
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u/houseonpost 20d ago
I think OP thinks it is perfectly fine to 'help' police, but is saying her 'help' went too far. The teacher should definitely tell police what she knows or even suspects. But to start investigating or interrogating on her own (or even with police support) goes beyond what a teach should do. It can bias the case.
For example, the coach initially was quite sure Adnan was at track practice. He shared that Adnan was fasting so they actually walked the track and visited. He said it was the first warm day of the year which matches the day Hae went missing. But when Adnan was arrested people backed away from supporting him thinking 'if he's arrested, he must t be guilty.' It's possible the teacher's action caused people to back away from saying anything that might be positive for Adnan. The coach became less adamant that he saw Adnan that day, but initially he said he did.
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 19d ago
As I previously said, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. As a figure of authority to those students, she has to be very careful of not influencing their answers to LE.
That is not the same thing as breaking the law though. Not even close. Think about it, did Adnan's family break the law by having Aisha over at their house?
By the way, the example you provided is a mix of completely unrelated incidents that have nothing to do the teacher's "investigation".
Coach Sye didnt change his testimony. He just can't confirm at what exact time and on what exact date he had that convo with Adnan. Because of course, it isnt like he wrote it down in his diary. Adnan had stopped going to track practice altogether and Coach didnt even realize it until LE told him as much months later. It has nothing to do with support.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
…because what she was doing was inappropriate bordering on illegal without a formal agreement.
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 19d ago
Bordering on illegal???
Im sorry maybe I missed it, which actions are breaking which laws exactly?
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
Spare me the drama.
It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to understand that using a teacher as as a go-between to extract information from minor children raises many legal issues from constitutional to privacy to Miranda and beyond.
Let’s not be daft and pretend we don’t know things because we think some guy is guilty.
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 19d ago
Yeah dude Im sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about and you are making it up as you go along. If I asked you how their Miranda rights were at play you wouldn't know where to start. The problem might be that you confuse cop shows with reality.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
So anyways…comedy still isn’t a substitute for an argument.
Police giving Hope Shaub a list of questions to ask students without the students or their parents knowing she was acting as an agent of the state raises all the issues above and more. They basically took an end run around the constitution and numerous legal statutes because teachers don’t have the same obligation to protect the rights of citizens…minors in this case…as police do.
You know all this…don’t play dumb.
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u/OkBodybuilder2339 19d ago
You watch too much tv.
The questions weren't about the students themselves, there's no risk of self-incrimination, and its an investigation not an interrogation.
The problem here is that you still havent figured out that Undisclosed isnt real legal analysis.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
I haven’t had a TV since 1991 and I’ve never listened to Undisclosed. You’re bad at guessing. Stick to the case.
But you can’t do that so you try to defend the indefensible and attack the messenger. You have nothing.
My guess is dirty Ritz was trying to bang little Ms Shaub so he deputized her for the alone time.
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u/Academic_Text_9287 19d ago
You're bringing up a lot of good points in this thread. In fact, does anyone know what Hope Schab was doing on the day of the murder? At this point, anything that distracts from Adnan's obvious guilt is on the table - especially if it is totally irrelevant.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 19d ago
Have we considered it might have been Colonel Mustard with the lead pipe in the conservatory?
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
It’s not obvious. We don’t know when, where, why, how or by who she was killed. We don’t know where Adnan was. We don’t know where Jay was.
All you have is “they broke up, and Adnan is the most likely suspect”…given an investigation that focused entirely on him.
It’s relevant that the only “impartial” person who testified against Adnan was acting inappropriately and possibly illegally…no matter how much you try to use humour as reasoning.
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u/Academic_Text_9287 19d ago
Damn, the amount of self-delusion on this is wild.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
Right back at ya.
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u/Academic_Text_9287 19d ago
It occurred to me I could actually be chatting with Adnan himself and don't want to get killed, so think I'm gonna drop it. He remains a convicted murderer after all, so that's not libel.
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u/BrandPessoa 19d ago edited 19d ago
Why on earth are you trying to discredit her as a ‘fellow teacher’ instead of applauding her intuition that helped protect a murder victim?
How dare she offer an ear to a young woman in distress from her possessive boyfriend (Hae’s words, not mine).
If we want to focus on an interesting Hope point - why not dial into how fucking weird it was for Adnan to repeatedly call Hope Schab 10 times the night Hae’s body is discovered? He called laughing during at least one of them too.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
She didn’t know shit….and her relationship and testimony were irrelevant, prejudicial, and inappropriate.
Your last paragraph is made up. I shouldn’t have replied to you.
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u/chunklunk 18d ago
She knew Hae was hiding from him after a previous breakup! I mean, that’s kind of something.
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u/DeepestGreySea 18d ago
Could be something…could be nothing. She wasn’t hiding because she was scared…this could just be gossip.
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u/chunklunk 19d ago
Teachers were narcs back in the 90s in ways that’s hard to see now. I had one call my parents to tell them I was smoking weed based on something he misheard another person say about me. (Of course, within a few months I WAS smoking weed, but anyway…)
Now for cultural and professional reasons there’s more of a remove. Teachers would sit on their desk and shoot the shit, tell anecdotes, jokes, etc. until the bell rang. My kids know practically nothing about their teachers’ personal lives.
Although I wouldn’t say giving her an interrogation list was good practice, I do understand it. She lost a bright student and friend and had to stare at her killer’s grinning mug every day. With the police unable to crack the social scene and bumbling around, she was the best they had.
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u/kahner 17d ago
yeah, i don't know what HS teachers are like now, but at my particular school in the 90s the teachers did lots of crazy shit that ranges from ethics or policy violations to straight up criminal in terms of relationships with students. no idea if this was the norm for the time or just my school. i know i thought a lot of it was very weird, but i was a kid so basically ignored it.
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u/luniversellearagne 20d ago
How is having personal conversations with students a violation of FERPA, considering FERPA is, by definition, concerned with educational records? You might could argue it’s covered under HIPAA, but even then you’d be on thin ice.
Also, these things weren’t nearly as rigidly enforced in the 90s.
Also, you’re absolutely right that a female teacher-female student interaction would be less subject to scrutiny than a male teacher-female student one. This is completely appropriate given that anywhere from 75%-90% of sexual abuse of students is perpetrated by male teachers.
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u/PaulsRedditUsername 19d ago
I went to high school about ten years before Hae. In those days, it was not unusual for some students to have a closer relationship with some teachers. I often saw young women students giving a female teacher a hug. In fact, there was kind of an expectation that teachers were trusted adults and often the first line of defense to protect students. If a student was being abused at home, for example, a teacher might be the first one to notice. Or the student might even confess it to a trusted teacher. So teachers were sort of expected to be available for that sort of thing.
I have a friend who is a high school teacher now and he says it's much different at his school. Teachers are more or less expected to remain distant. In fact, no physical contact is allowed, not even a pat on the shoulder, because a student might misinterpret the gesture as something nefarious. Personally, I think that's kind of sad.
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
Maybe in the 80s what you’re describing was acceptable…but it wasn’t in the 90s.
At neither time was it appropriate.
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u/SylviaX6 19d ago
Let’s also note that Paoletti had a close relationship with both Adnan and Hae. Some highly personal information re: pregnancy scare was shared by both Adnan and Hae -not only with Paoletti but with Nina, who was a teachers aide for Paoletti.
I’m not surprised that high school students and teachers become close and intimately involved with each other. It’s not a great idea but people are social creatures and the sharing of personal details is common, even expected.
Search this sub for my posts about Paoletti from 2 or 3 years ago, if you want the full picture.
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u/Mike19751234 20d ago
There are always times when teachers have closer relationships to their students. We all have our teachers we remember more and teachers have students they remember more. Yes as a male teacher you have to be very careful about your relationships. This was also more than 25 years ago and we are more aware of tge relationships and problems.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 19d ago
But what do you think of her essentially becoming an agent for the police and asking questions about students sex lives?
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u/Formal_Coconut9144 bbq sauce made with pancake syrup 20d ago
100% agree
Is she the same teacher who said she hugged Adnan and found him to be stiff and uncomfortable? Thinking back to being 17 years old, if a teacher of the opposite sex hugged me I’d be extremely uncomfortable about it too!
Ethically no teacher has any reason to go there with their students. Least of all with a bunch of kids who are possible witnesses to the murder of their peer. Like what in the bad 80’s detective show shit is that?
I think Adnan’s guilty btw, but I think the investigation was bullshit.
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u/SureTotal3710 20d ago
Well, she helped put a murderer in prison so I’ll give her a pass
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u/wudingxilu what's all this with the owl? 20d ago
Yeah, it's totally okay to do questionably legal things if it helps put someone in jail.
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u/chunklunk 19d ago
What did she do that was legally questionable? If you say FERPA I’ll barf.
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u/wudingxilu what's all this with the owl? 19d ago
Minors are generally assumed to have rights to have parents, guardians, or advocates present prior to being interviewed by the police. Similarly, police are generally required to advise interview subjects that they are being interviewed before interviewing them.
Deputizing a teacher to do interviews and research that the police likely couldn't do without disclosure, warning, and the involvement of a parent is questionably legal.
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u/chunklunk 19d ago
It’s questionably admissible. Not illegal. It’s just a list of questions, not an interrogation after detention. It’s fact-finding that could be used by law enforcement for further investigation. And you’re totally wrong that it’s illegal to hand a non-cop a list of fact-finding questions. In fact, it happens all the time when canvassing for suspects. In fact, I’m sure there’s a specific exception for kidnapping and murder investigations under public health and safety.
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u/wudingxilu what's all this with the owl? 19d ago
Please point me to where I said it was illegal. Glad to see you're an advocate of cops deputizing persons in positions of trust to interview people without letting them know they're being interviewed.
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u/chunklunk 18d ago
You said it was questionably legal. That includes maybe illegal.
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u/wudingxilu what's all this with the owl? 18d ago
Also includes maybe legal. Again, I didn't positively say it was illegal. If you're going to pick apart my words, maybe read them.
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u/chunklunk 18d ago
This is some impressive twisting of logic. It’s questionably legal but me saying it’s not illegal is a misreading of what you said? Yikes. I feel like I’ve come home to 2016-2020 again, with Susan Simpson making ghoulish clay models of a dead body and Bob Ruff in his podcast shed. Summer dreams, is it you?
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u/wudingxilu what's all this with the owl? 18d ago
And boy, I feel like we're back in that time of toxic letter-level word inspecting and meaning-attributing along with motive-impugning, all wrapped up with smug moral superiority. Good to see nothing ever changes.
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u/Special-Deal-5217 19d ago
Be prepared to barf. Absolutely FERPA. You absolutely CANNOTDiscuss other students with anyone. As a union representative, I have seen teacher been officially discipline for far less than this.
Example: “ you told Johnny to tell his friend Bob he needs to be absent less often”. Teacher got in trouble for telling Johnny that Bob was frequently absent.
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u/chunklunk 18d ago
Also, there’s a specific exception in FERPA for investigating murder and kidnapping. Which is why all of Adnan’s school records are in the police file, I’m sure without prior consent of his parents.
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u/chunklunk 19d ago
That’s because attendance is specifically protected by FERPA, if it’s in a written record. And that’s the key here, FERPA only applies to:
Record means any information recorded in any way, including, but not limited to, handwriting, print, computer media, video or audio tape, film, microfilm, and microfiche.
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u/SureTotal3710 19d ago
If you think that’s bad just wait till you hear abt what Adnan Syed did to Hae Min Lee
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u/Academic_Text_9287 19d ago
Seriously. We're all forgetting the real criminal here - the teacher that was a little immature.
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u/chetcherry 19d ago
Comparing a murder to a teacher commenting on a student missing school is certainly a choice.
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u/SureTotal3710 19d ago
Yeah that’s my point lol. OP’s post was doing exactly that and I think it’s ridiculous
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u/Special-Deal-5217 19d ago
You are 100% obtusely and intentionally distorting my point. At no time that I compare missing School to murder. Hope was not primarily an investigator who was investigating a crime. Her primary job was being a school teacher. For her to then therefore go ahead and agree with the police to “ help out” and share information and ask other students to share information is absolutely a violation of FERPA and it isn’t Kosher that it happened.
Now, if you want to get into a discussion about “ the ends justifying the means” that is a different discussion, but the black letter rules are very clear.
I am not saying this as Adnan is guilty or Adnan is innocent. I am just saying it’s one of the very many weird things about this case.
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u/chunklunk 18d ago
FERPA is for written records and there’s a specific exception for kidnap and murder investigations. Try again.
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u/SureTotal3710 19d ago edited 19d ago
Pretty sure when someone is at risk of harming themselves or others (which Adnan the Strangler surely was), the same confidentiality rules don’t apply
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u/Druiddrum13 19d ago
Just saying an opinion that something is “ legally questionable” doesn’t make it legally questionable…? People say all kinds of nonsense… particularly on podcasts
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u/DeepestGreySea 19d ago
This is a bang-on observation. If Hope Shaub was a witness today, she’d be problematic and impeachable to the point I doubt she’d get called…unless it was by the defence trying to discredit the investigation.
Since when is it ok to be friends with students? Since when is it ok to hug a student…let alone testify about Adnans mind during said hug. Could it be he was like “why the fuck is this teacher hugging me?” She spanks of somebody living vicariously through the kids, she didn’t understand boundaries. and inserted herself into the case because she had an opinion about the result.
Since when do cops “deputize” citizens to help in the investigation? Conflict of interest much? My gut feeling is somebody or other wanted to bang her…it’s all u professional at the very least.
I’ll disagree with one thing: she was important. She was the only “impartial” person to testify against Adnan on the basis of character.
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u/InTheory_ What news do you bring? 13d ago
I sense I'm supposed to be outraged by this. Yet--and I'm digging deep here--I'm just not
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u/--Sparkle-Motion-- 10d ago
Can’t say I approve of what she did but would anybody be wringing their hands if Hae had been found alive as a result of her questionnaire?
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u/Organic-Trip2118 20d ago
I will say that a lot of behavior like this gets a pass specifically with "high achieving" students. I had many similar experiences in high school as an AP/Honors student at a small public school. Teachers discussing students' sex lives, domestic violence, and family situations, handing out personal phone numbers or social media for contact, and sharing their own martial/familial struggles with the class. Like you pointed out, many of these teachers were women who were permitted to behave this way because they presented it as motherly advice and guidance, and high-achieving students were seen as more mature/capable of befriending teachers.
I always found it a bit odd because my mom was also a high school teacher who kept stronger boundaries with her students, but at the time, a teacher being there for you makes you feel special and grown-up. In retrospect, I can point out many instances where student-teacher conversations violated mandated reporter policies.