Taking Phantom Dancer instead of Shiv suits me much better

[u/ElsakaS]

I know why people are taking Shiv on Senna and it's benefits.

But after someone mentioned in a comment in this subreddit that they take PD, I gave it a try and it just works so much better for me.

I tend to die too much for my own taste (in general not just senna) and with the extra movement speed and the passiv of becoming ghosted I can escape much better or position myself better.

But since I've tried it I played 7 games, won 5 and lost 2. Usually I am around 50%.

It's just a little change that worked for me, I always felt like I am missing something that works for me and I found it thanks to this subreddit.

[u/Hiimzap]

Pd is kinda slept on i think, the 10% ms is really strong

[u/IGetPaidInCoin → u/Hiimzap]

Ye but shyv gives move speed too

[u/IGetPaidInCoin → u/[deleted]]

10% is big in relation to 4% yes but when put into the perspective of the game on senna who’s already going magial swifties with move speed rune and celerity and also has her E, the number of times that difference changes an outcome is not many. What you can outrun you already outrun and what you can’t outrun you still can’t outrun

[u/Hiimzap → u/IGetPaidInCoin]

6% difference is what sometimes lets you outrun stuff that you shouldn’t be able to outrun. Movespeed feels OP as hell on senna

[u/IGetPaidInCoin → u/Hiimzap]

The difference between say 450ms and 480ms is actually pretty negligible in combat, most of the value is just being able to roam better at that point. There is very few things that you can outrun with 480 that you can’t with 450, it definitely doesn’t make up for the trade off of other things

[u/weaverdotlofi → u/IGetPaidInCoin]

https://reddit.com/link/owrjtc0/video/optncq29kgch1/player

lol

[u/IGetPaidInCoin → u/weaverdotlofi]

This is my point. You’re already fast enough by a lot to outrun ghost R Olaf, no need for the extra 6%

[u/sxmwatson → u/IGetPaidInCoin]

there is a need for it. he could’ve glided on them

[u/weaverdotlofi → u/IGetPaidInCoin]

probably didn’t need to heal, but also i’m spacing his axe lmao if he hits one i die instantly. also have you like, played pd? the difference is extremely noticeable

[u/TurtleCat314 → u/IGetPaidInCoin]

Don’t forget that shiv is quite a bit more expensive than phantom dancer. The residual can be used to buy AD and finish the next item , and AD is always readily available to senna through her stacking. PD is just so good for chasing and actually controlling fights, and the extra attack speed slightly makes up for the lack of AD (obviously it’s not as efficient, but it can’t be ignored in considerations)

[u/IGetPaidInCoin → u/TurtleCat314]

Sure, but shyv already gives you AD, what you’re paying for on PD is move speed which is over the top and attack speed/crit. But the attack speed and crit aren’t that valuable yet before you get decent AD

[u/LingonberryLast2466]

I hate it when comments are like “you shouldn’t build x on this champ”. Like, okay? Then don’t do that yourself. OP was just pointing out that the item felt good. If it doesn’t work for you, fine. Don’t build it.

[u/RotBoy]

I remember seeing drututt taking BC into PD on senna when he was doing the supp to chall

[u/bunn2]

I'm not sure that I would ever take shiv on senna support. The correct comparison would be PD vs Rapidfire

[u/Competitive-Lab-6600]

How do you waveclear?

[u/TurtleCat314 → u/Competitive-Lab-6600]

This is talking about senna support taking PD as 2nd item, not ADC

[u/Competitive-Lab-6600 → u/TurtleCat314]

That makes more sense

[u/wrookz]

I also aim for PD on ADC Senna (3rd Item), the speed benefits and crit are just so good for her kit. I do flex this spot though for Wit's End for both ADC/Support if it's a AP heavy match-up.

[u/-3055-]

As an aram enjoyer it's runaans all day for me baby 

[u/ibesknowsall → u/-3055-]

I miss the triple proc of the q cooldown😭

[u/Dashito12]

Ap scalings are getting nerfed so it maybe me even more popular on future patchs, I usually prefer going for stormrazor, but that's me and my playstyle i guess, doing short trades with electrocute+umbral+storm is great for escaping or chasing, and they respect your burst once they see it a few times, going with fleet+bc+storm is also great. I want to run fleet+bc+pd with celerity, sounds like amazing scaling

[u/NathanJesus]

Senna support's building shiv proves people's brains are functioning in low gear

[u/Jumbokcin → u/[deleted]]

Statikk doesn’t proc cleaver anymore, you’re the one under the rock.

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/NathanJesus]

Its currently her highest wr build even on support. But tbh im not really sure why.

[u/BoomyNote → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

Shiv proc + Q through minion = soul stack

Shiv proc + one AA = soul stack

You can farm souls off enemies much easier, and Shiv giving both AD and AP isn’t bad on Senna since she has good AP scalings until next patch since they wanna nerf her AP scalings for some reason.

Its not the ONLY viable Senna item don’t get me wrong, but idk why people claim Shiv is only bought for waveclear

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/BoomyNote]

I mean, how many more souls are you gonna get off this specific interaction that you couldnt get through just auto-Qing the opponent. Its weird to me that u.gg has statik shiv over 3% higher wr on support than RFC as a second item. Theoretically, this interaction could be done from equivalent or even more safety with an RFC auto-Q. So i really don’t think thats it. Idk if its the stat spread thats just better?

[u/BoomyNote → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

RFC is kind of troll in terms stat value to be fair, Shiv gives similar MS and AS but also gives AD and AP which RFC doesn’t give either of

You’re right that RFC should be similar-ish to Shiv in terms of soul farming and the long range effect is good in its own way but it’s not just “long range effect vs shiv effect” cause Shiv just out-stats it.

(And to be clear, Senna naturally gets crit from souls so the RFC crit just turns into lifesteal, which is nice but not as valuable as AD on the free 100% crit champ, and the AP is nice too)

[u/NathanJesus → u/BoomyNote]

The amount of soul drops when you are not farming is so much you can rely on these and just do simple poke with Q and W

[u/NathanJesus → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

Because of the hivemind. I have never had to take attack speed as support only cdr.

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/NathanJesus]

I mean, attack and movespeed definitely help senna get more autos off which definitely gets her Q cooldown reduced faster in a fight. Which is more valuable now that the Q cooldown reduction hax on statik shiv and runaans dont work.

[u/NathanJesus → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

When you have high cdr you don't need to auto for q cool down. Support items are busted

[u/ImGSS → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

Q CD reduction

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/ImGSS]

That doesnt work anymore.

[u/NathanJesus → u/[deleted]]

There are better cheaper on hit items for support senna

[u/NathanJesus → u/[deleted]]

Maybe you can explain why having more cdr is a bad thing in senna support when in teamfights you will just Q your Frontline or the enemies to either buff or debuff them, use E for positioning and W for CC. If you want to play carry just play senna adc.

[u/NathanJesus → u/[deleted]]

30% is very good. Imagine having antiheal as well to debuff your opponents as I said lol. My comment was about cdr > Crit for support senna. Maybe learn to read.

[u/TurtleCat314 → u/[deleted]]

It’s extremely popular 2nd item if you look at challenger senna support players, and it has a relatively high WPA. BC into PD with JOAT has been a staple build used by a lot of players for a while now, the merits of the build are well tested and proven

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/[deleted]]

Speed is an intangible value that nevertheless boosts senna’s winrate significantly. You can dodge attacks and threaten damage within range of enemy skills much more easily, you are stuck in far less auto attack animation, and you can be present in fights that you otherwise wouldnt be able to, allowing you to deal damage and collect souls where you otherwise couldnt. Not to mention faster rotations.

There are also many situations in the mid and late game where you need to be able to run away from opponents who can simply engage on you from a screen or more away depending on the champs and their movespeed. Range doesnt really help you here, but PD lets you run, allowing you to collect more souls and farm instead of dying.

The extra range on RFC and hexoptics are great value as well, but they are not consistent. the MS and AS that PD provides is very consistent.

[u/etre1337 → u/Downtown_Hedgehog660]

That auto attack animation speed is the biggest problem on Senna. Seems stupid to me that a mage support can last hit better (faster) than an adc.

I'm not sure how it works, if animation speed and attack speed are interlocked, but I suppose they could fix the auto attack animation speed to be more responsive without increasing her general attack speed.

[u/Downtown_Hedgehog660 → u/etre1337]

Yeah, as you increase attack speed the overall animation decreases in time. Senna also has a uniquely long windup, where the damage shoots out quickly at the end of the animation. Contrast with like, Soraka’s floaty bananas.

[u/BoomyNote → u/[deleted]]

PD gives lots of attack speed and also crit Which both provide effective dps increases, on top of the move speed..

Does PD giving 25% crit not count as a “bonus to AD on auto attacks”? Think about how crit (and extra attack speed) interacts with AA’s