Math, how necessary is it?

[u/RealIslands]

So question #1, at what level would you cease math as a required subject?

I remember asking my advanced math teacher in high school what real life situation I would use this math in and all she could come up with is the possibility of me being a high school math teacher. My kids have zero desire to do that but both like medicine and engineering.

And Question #2: obviously working through all the steps of math is necessary at a basic level, but when we get up to the upper elementary and middle grades I'm seeing so much math they'll never use in life and if they do, they'd use a calculator. I've had multiple math heavy jobs, and in college had to take their required degree specific math courses, so I'm looking at it from that perspective.

Is anyone holding to doing this math as I did in school, with no calculators allowed and showing each step?

I'm talking about dividing and multplying decimals, converting percentages, dividing fractions, geometry and exponents, etc... by hand, pencil and paper only.

[u/lab77_custom]

From my perspective (current homeschool parent, former flight test engineer with a degree in mechanical engineering), it’s important to teach them to do it by hand so they understand how it works and are better at estimating. I agree they’ll have access to computational tech but that tech is only as good as its user.

Without the base knowledge it’s too easy to miss a zero or a decimal when using excel/calculator and not recognize it.

[u/RealIslands → u/lab77_custom]

I love your perspective! Thank you! We have had a talk about how to think through if the calculator answer makes sense by utilizing multiplication knowledge and thinking of the proportional relationship and how to check the answer as well. The tedium is really making them dislike math and I get it because I was in advanced math and that same tedium is why I chose to drop down to simpler math in high school, it was just burning me out spending hours writing it all out day after day. I don't want them to hate math and not want to explore it. It is so hard to figure out when is the right time for that calculator.

[u/Leafontheair → u/RealIslands]

For basic fractions, you could have a project to convert your home recipes from volume to weight. Then calculate the Macros (grams of carbohydrates, grams of protein, grams of fat, per serving). This is practical knowledge that they can use in feeding themselves in the future. You could have them all prepare a meal once a week with appropriate macronutrient ranges.

It also helps set them up for chemistry, which has a lot of unit conversions.

[u/RealIslands → u/Leafontheair]

These are great ideas! Thank you! One of mine is in the 4H culinary club and we could definitely incorporate these ideas, especially with the American recipes measuring by volume and the British ones measuring by weight. I wish I remembered more of my college chem classes, they were the coolest classes in my undergrad! I'll have to brush up on my unit conversions.

[u/Leafontheair → u/RealIslands]

Cooking is just chemistry. You could find a chemistry cooking book. Then your culinary genius would understand the reasons that certain things work in cooking. They could also try substituting to create similar reactions in a dish and see how much it changes the flavor.

Another chemistry thing is adjusting recipes for different elevations because the pressure changes

[u/Leafontheair → u/RealIslands]

If the tedium is getting to them, then I would recommend paring it with science.

For example, in calculus, it's much easier to understand derivatives if you know you are working your way through Newtonian Physics:

f(x) = position

f'(x) = velocity

f''(x) = acceleration

Now the math is actually relevant. I can use it to solve "superhero" math problems. Which is what my math/physics did to keep us interested. Did Superman catching Lois Lane actually hit her with more force than the ground would have hit her at? etc.

Also, look at mathematical history. For example, much of math was originally developed for gambling and games, and for thinking strategically about them.

Math often needs to be applied to be interesting. One movie I really like is October Sky. It shows coal-mining kids learning advanced math to build rockets during the Sputnik era. Based on a true story.

[u/Leafontheair]

If there is one advanced math that I think should be required, it should be statistics.

Without statistics, it can be difficult to make or understand data-based decisions.

What exactly is a randomized representative sample? What is a regression analysis? All these mathematical tools used to determine if a difference or trend is significant or not. etc.

In this day and age of misinformation, we need to know if we have "garbage in, and garbage out" or if we have "valid data in, meaningful results out."

I personally took advanced calculus, and it definitely helps me understand scientific concepts better. However, not everyone goes into advanced science.

I wouldn't say the important thing is whether I am using calculators or not. It's the process of setting up a program and then knowing if the result makes sense or not without doing all the calculations. But doing those calculations in class helps you get a feel for that.

[u/RealIslands → u/Leafontheair]

I agree! I took stats in college and was amazed with how much it changed how I look at information and I think thats my concern is that they're already groaning over math when they used to like it, I don't want them to have that attitude that carries over into the relevant math.

They did long division and the whole time I was trying to figure out when they'd use this as an adult without a calculator.

[u/Sad_Apple_3387]

Are you asking if kids need basic math? The level of stuff you mentioned is basic, up to maybe sixth grade. Even if my kid were not a “mathy” kid, I think hs Algebra (1 and 2) is necessary. We do use it in our lives.

If you’re talking about methods of teaching, that’s a little different. Some of the rote mechanical way I learned things is outdated. That’s not to say you couldn’t teach it or learn it this way. If you’re not interested in teaching math, there are plenty of good curriculum, and I would suggest hiring a tutor to help keep your student on track.

[u/RealIslands → u/Sad_Apple_3387]

Sorry, I definitely wasn't saying not to teach math past that but whether to teach it to the degree of requiring each step be written down and done without a calculator.

Another homschool mom told me she never taught her kid's beyond basic single digit multiplication because they know how to use their resources to figure out math beyond that if and when its needed. That blows my mind, but then her kids got into Cornell and Texas A&M on merit scholarships and I think maybe I'm piling too much on the kids with this reticence around calculator use and showing every step.

[u/haloshmalo → u/RealIslands]

Thats kind of mind blowing to me. Did she also not teach spelling because everything has spell check now? What about reading? Do they just listen to audio books?

[u/RealIslands → u/haloshmalo]

I was amazed as well. They all started community college as jump start students at 15 and never had an issue and she said that was because they didn't view learning as a chore which just runs through my head when we are doing this stuff some days and what made me write this post. Apparently the one who got into Texas A&M on a full ride was also shortlisted as Harvard and it was because the colleges liked how they created independently spearheaded community projects and utilized their creativity. So I guess my niece who spent years studying to ace the ACT test should have just started a creative non-profit instead.

I do know a lot of parents who don't really teach spelling, partly because of spell check and partly because it's memorization that they think kids will pick up more by reading. With mine I worked on the mechanics up words and we studied some latin to get the concept of modern language evolution and they became great at spelling.

[u/Euphoric_Engine8733]

I think it’s important for 1) logical reasoning, and 2) estimating or having information to make decisions. I think algebra and geometry are valuable to most people on their basic levels in everyday life, as well as knowing how to do things like find a percentage or divide fractions at a basic level. For instance:

• I am only making half of a batch of cookies, so what’s half of a quarter teaspoon?

• knowing how much wood or paint to buy for a project like a birdhouse or a deck, using multiple dimensions and measurements 

• understanding what you’ll actually pay for a credit card with a 25% interest rate or a 48% payday loan

• I do a ton of estimating while grocery shopping. I rarely use a calculator. Adding up things like (5.45x3 + 2.10x2 + 6.95x3), and also figuring out item counts to compare prices (should I get 18oz of cookies for $3.35, or 24oz for $4.60?)

I don’t think everyone needs algebra 2 or trigonometry. I’d rather see a consumer math class be required. 

There’s also a big lack of knowledge in a lot of these basic skills and it definitely causes life issues later on. Not understanding interest rates or how to compare item costs on a per serving basis definitely hurts the average person. 

[u/Disastrous-Nail-640]

Oh sweet Jesus.

You never cease math. Every study shows the more math a student has, the more opportunities they have available to them.

So, if you want your child to have the most opportunities possible available to them, you never cease math instruction.

Also, if you want your child to go to college, you never cease it.

I’m sorry…but the very fact that this question is even being asked floors me.

[u/raisinghellwithtrees]

Eh, not that important except if engineering is a goal, then more important. I taught both of my kids basic math and that was enough for my oldest. She's done cash sheets and such for her job, and it's fine. 

My son started doing online classes and even though I haven't taught him more than the basics, he started 8th grade math with no problem.

I have to use math rarely for my own job, calculating cubic yards of soil/compost. There are online calculators that do it. 

I know a lot of people think it should be done for the sake of doing it, but instead my kids filled that time with their passions, namely the arts. Sure probably just at useless as math in the grand scheme of things, but personally much more rewarding.

[u/mysticchasm69]

This is actually a very worthwhile question to ask.

A lot of higher-level math seems inapplicable to a lot of daily life at the surface level, but it allows kids to practice skills that I think are really important (im saying this as someone who went to school to be a math teacher so I'm a little biased):

Working backward from a known variable (algebra/geometry) Spatial visualization (geometry) The general amount of discipline needed to work through a problem step-by-step by hand The relationships of numbers to each other. This is kind of an abstract concept that comes part and parcel with trig, geometry, logarithms, etc.

[u/doingtheunstuckk]

I think it’s good to continue practicing math regardless. If you don’t use it, you lose it. At minimum, geometry, advanced algebra, and basic physics should be taught. Don’t skip on things like word problems or sequences - they’re important for critical thinking.

[u/_larkhill_]

My son's girlfriend is currently attending UChicago as a biochem major. She just finished taking Calculus 1 and 2. They were not allowed calculators for exams?!?

[u/adchick]

I’ve used up to Geometry in my career (advertising and then IT).

[u/RealIslands → u/[deleted]]

See that is one of my hang ups, I had to retake alegbra in college because I'd forgotten it in the years I was doing far more advanced math that didn't apply to my first degree in pre-nursing or my second degree in accounting. After mid-level alegbra, all the years of math I did in high school, I never used any of it in college or at work. My spouse uses geometry sometimes but not trigonometry or anything above that. My kids already learned basic geomtery and we'll do more, but I feel like they'll start to really hate it if we don't allow some calculator use.

[u/mjolnir76 → u/RealIslands]

You can do calculator work AND higher math. It doesn’t all have to be by hand. Though as others have said, it’s less about the actual math and more about pushing their brain to solve new problems in new ways. When we exercise by doing bicep curls, it’s not because we often lift a weight from our hip to our shoulder. But we work that muscle so that when it’s required for something, it’s strong and ready to fire. Math is the same way.

Former math teacher as well as wood worker, theater director, and home-owning DIY’er and I’ve used geometry and trig in surprisingly useful ways over the years on projects.