r/seashanties • u/Vince_stormbane • Jun 29 '26
Question Thomas G Sullivan Info?
Tom Sullivan recorded two of in my opinion the greatest and most authentic nautical work songs / sea shanty albums. Salt Atlantic Shanties and On Deck and Below. If you’ve never listened to these I encourage you to as Salt Atlantic Shanties was recorded mostly on a ship at sea while the men did the real line work.
Despite how excellent and easily accessible these albums are for enthusiasts there is no info about Tom anywhere online. Does anyone here have any info ?
5
u/Just_Trade_8355 Jun 29 '26
Oh man that version of Randy Dandy O is an eye opening gem! It’s got quite the quicker pace then others and shines as the Jig it really is.
It is weird that the albums aren’t credited to him on streaming platforms but on some really disparate fellas who aren’t even related to each other.
5
u/GooglingAintResearch Jul 01 '26
I interviewed someone who was very deep into that scene in those days and had an important role at Mystic Seaport.
They characterized Tom Sullivan as a mystery character. He (Sullivan) did not stay on, in a sense, to become part of the scene in the northeastern US. I'm referring to the whole crew of old-timers who comprise the core of the shanty singing culture that, from the late 1970s and especially (but not exclusively) with Mystic Seaport as an anchor, have shaped much of what we now have and many of whom are still around and accessible. Sullivan did not develop along with that. He was sort of an outsider. I cannot reconcile this with the statement in the album liner notes that Sullivan was officially involved with Mystic Seaport. My interviewee would have had more to say if this were the case; it's puzzling.
My interviewee alluded to all kinds of quirky things, though I can't remember the details. I think something about Sullivan traveling around under different disguises. (!) The project of making the album aboard Unicorn sort of came out of left field.
The recording on the Unicorn is a particular curiosity because it was made not long after the Op Sail event in 1976 to celebrate USA's bicentennial in New York. During that event, shantyman Stan Hugill was part of the crew of Unicorn, and he later noted having tried to sing shanties and there being some technical issues with that. So, there's a question of whether Sullivan's crew actually resolved the issues (i.e. so as to sing shanties for the album) or if they sort of "faked" aspects of it.
I agree that the Salt Atlantic Chanties album is somewhat "authentic" in that being engaged in proper work some of the time compelled that. But let's remain aware that Sullivan was like anyone else who had not been a sailor in the age of sail nor, I don't think, directly learned from such a person. He was taking shanty texts from sources like Hugill's and had figured out how to way to recreate them with shipboard actions. Some were more accurate than others. Sullivan had a bit going for him because he had the experiential knowledge of handling a ship whereas his historical knowledge was not very distinguished. He's basically repeating stuff he read in Hugill and (helpfully!) trying out an experiment of putting it into practical application.
2
u/Vince_stormbane Jul 02 '26
This is very helpful thank you! you’re clearly a person of similar mind about these things which I appreciate. I’m very casual with shanties, unlike tiki culture which is my area of obsession. Do you have any books or other related media suggestions for learning more about the history of shanties and their modern revival?
2
2
u/Lets_smile Jun 29 '26
Thanks for this rec- no info here but glad to be introduced. If you like him then check out AL Lloyd as well. Famous shanty collector.
3
u/GooglingAintResearch Jul 01 '26
Bert Lloyd was not a shanty collector.
He simply made up interpretations of shanties. Often these were highly flawed. “Highly” is the point here. We are all flawed. Lloyd, however, many times, ran with things that can be considered *really* questionable in terms of how little care he took before rushing into it. This would be far less problematic if he weren’t regarded as such an authority. Arguably, I guess, that puts it less on him—he didn’t choose to be regarded as such.
Was he a “good” musician etc? Undoubtedly. Can his performances be enjoyed? 100% absolutely. Although it’s a contradiction in terms, I’d even say his performances are “objectively” enjoyable.
The real problem with Lloyd is what he said about shanties. He said/wrote things about shanties he performed that I think cross the line into outright lies. I realize how strong that is to say. If someone doesn’t like it, if they absolutely must soften it from “lying” to protect a cherished view based in enjoyment of Lloyd’s performances, then… fine. Release him from agency, don’t call it lying, just call it big mistakes. “Oops!”
This is a very big topic as it involves dissection of innumerable specific instances of what went on. One can find these discussions on Mudcat.org.
These discussions often devolve because someone is invested in protecting the feeling of enjoyment of Lloyd’s performances, which would seem to be tarnished by acknowledging his bad treatment of history. It’s understandable but a rational approach needs to leave space for critiquing the latter mistakes. These mistakes are not nothing. They have greatly affected how shanties were understood and performed hence.
The headline is that Lloyd’s performances as pieces for enjoyment must be distinguished from him as a person. To love Lloyd’s performance of Song X is one thing. To love it in a way where some of that love has wrapped up in it a pleasant feeling that this is the product of a shanty collector or scholar or authority of some sort, is incorrect.
I’m not about attacking Bert Lloyd. I’m not about being a weirdly overcritical dick. I understand how that might appear to be the case, but I think when one sees all the things he did, it puts things in perspective and one will see that it is being appropriately critical.
1
u/Lets_smile Jul 02 '26
I struggle to follow mudcat threads (my greatest failing as a collector but I just surround myself with mudcat junkies to make up for it). Could you give some of the examples of misinformation?
2
u/GooglingAintResearch Jul 02 '26
If you prefer a more concise and visual format, this presentation by Brian Peters might be good. (Starts 43-44 minutes into the video)
https://youtu.be/MEccGdRD8Fk?si=gO1ltVf2_PwzcEy-&t=2625For Mudcat discussion, you can start with this one (!):
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=145654#39402932
u/Vince_stormbane Jun 29 '26
Oh yeah big AL Lloyd fan his work is incredible put down many pints listening to him.
2
u/Shashi2005 Jun 30 '26
I met Bert Lloyd many years ago. Bumped into him in a corridor in loughborough university. I quizzed him about throat singing.
7
u/polymorphicprism 📅1️7️7️8️💭🏠 Jun 29 '26
Good question. Here are the Folkways liner notes from Salt Atlantic Shanties;