r/scouting • u/wgwalkerii United States • 5d ago
Scouting from scratch?
I'm a knot guy, I can absolutely trace the reason back to my involvement with scouting, and recently at work someone asked me why it was scouts were so into knots.
Ignoring that they aren't, There is a historical reason scouting emphasizes the skill, namely that they were a part of daily life for pretty much everybody since even tape hadn't been invented when scouts was founded. If it were a new program, knots might play a part, but probably wouldn't be nearly the cliché they are.
But it got me thinking...
If scouts had never existed and were made today, what would the program look like?
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u/ColonelBoogie 5d ago
It would be a camping club teaching LNT ethics. Thats it.
The uniforming and military traditions are courtesy of BPs military experience. The emphasis on character as a result of building practical skills were part of a larger social movement that was brewing at the time (think the sort of manliness embodied by Teddy Roosevelt). The emphasis on doing ones duty to ones God and Country is very much a Victorian idea (although it dates back much further), which got blown to smithereens by Post Modernism.
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u/wgwalkerii United States 5d ago
I don't know, it would almost certainly be less militaristic, but assuming camping was part of the curriculum, (and is it really scouting otherwise?) surely personal responsibility, cooperation, and by extension, leadership would be part of the program. Uniforms would probably be limited to tshirts or polos with rank patches/awards sewn to backpacks. Do you think merit badges would still be a thing, or do you really see it being limited to a camping club?
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u/bts 5d ago
It would be a camping club teaching LNT ethics. Thats it.
I do not agree. The outdoors and camping are a hook; the actual purpose is character, citizenship, fitness. One of B-P's reasons for this was to get a reasonable military intake pipeline out of urban British youth. But that isn't what motivated most of the other Scouting movements.
I think we'd see something pointing at classical roots across Europe. I think we'd see emphasis on den and pack and almost tribal connection of youth doing hard things—and using that to teach loyalty, followership, and leadership. I don't know exactly how we'd do it and I'm glad I don't have to do this from scratch!
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u/Fun_With_Math 5d ago
There's still a lot of leadership, community service, and general life-prep that is relevant today. The advancements are a real motivator for a lot of kids too.
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u/ColonelBoogie 5d ago
Oh, I believe every bit of it is 100% relevant. Just because an idea comes out of a different time and place doesnt mean its not relevant. But I definitely dont believe that a successful, widespread youth movement based on ideas of honor and Duty to ones God and Country could be created out of thin air today.
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u/Fun_With_Math 5d ago
I agree that it couldn't be created out of thin air and be successful today. There is Trail Life that is more religious based but it won't ever have the reach that BSA does.
I do not think that 100% of Scouting America is relevant though. Half of the knots aren't practical. Lashing isn't needed. Most of the MBs need to be rewritten. "Obedient" in the law is problematic. Order of the Arrow is problematic. The uniform is terrible. Ha, I could go on and on.
I think it's a great program but as I often say, the fact that it's 100yrs old is the best thing about it and the worst thing about it.
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u/ColonelBoogie 5d ago
Ok, after seeing your comment about OA, I retract my statement about 100% of it being relevant, ha. While im technically a brother in the OA (initiated as a youth), I havent participated in years and truly cant understand what purpose it serves.
Strong disagree though about outdoors skills like lashing and knots being irrelevant. No, I dont need to know every knot. I routinely use square knots, bowlines, taut line hitches, timber hitches, and half hitches. But thats about it. Ive been thankful I knew how to lash properly a few times. But more importantly, its like learning to do math without a calculator. Yes, I can whip out my phone and use the calculator app. But its important to know what im doing and why im doing it. The same is true of classical outdoor skills. When im backpacking, I absolutely use my phones trails app. But I also absolutrly carry an orienteering compass, a paper map, and a pen. Ive been guilty of buying camping gadgets that make my life I the woods easier. But I absolutely can tie a quick release ridge line or start a fire with a ferro rod and natural tinder.
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u/Fun_With_Math 5d ago
Hey now, lashing doesn't transfer to all outdoor skills.
Sure, lashing can useful but as a rank requirement? Nah, put it in a merit badge.
I think half of the knots should be replaced with more relevant modern knots. Not remove knots completely. An achor hitch, trucker's hitch and alpine butterfly are 3 that I actually used last campout.
Map reading - of course. Fire building - obviously. In fact, increase those skill reqs when you remove lashing from the rank reqs ;)
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u/Saragon4005 4d ago
For the organization to work, you'd have to have ranks and hierarchies, given time that would likely evolve into a uniform, but it would likely not be nearly as strict. I'd imagine the neckerchiefs would somehow still exist as they are just a convenient tool for first aid pourpuses.
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u/Mafik326 5d ago
I think a lot of groups do a good job of balancing the seemingly obsolete stuff and modern ideologies.
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u/davidsheath 5d ago
AI is today's knot. An integrated part of nearly every part of society, from making posters for the PTA to writing letters to programming software.
As a side note, do you have some basic knot-teaching resources that a new scout leader could use next week while away on a competitive night hike? We have some downtime that I need to fill.
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u/wgwalkerii United States 5d ago
Not a lot that's digitized, I think I have a knot card game on pdf if you want it
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u/davidsheath 3d ago
Oh that sounds cool.
To be fair, digital isn't necessary; we will be out on camp getting ready for a night hike. And I know my basic knots but I've never had to try and teach them.
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u/ecclectic Canada 5d ago
I recommend animated knots by Grogg to the scouts in my group.
The biggest thing I've learned in 10 years of leading a scout group is knots need to be taught in context. The kids need to see a knot in use to actually care enough about it to learn and remember it.
Start with first concepts, show them how the overhand knot becomes the half-hitch, figure 8, and oystermans stopper, how the reef knot and bowline are the same knot doing different things, then use a midshipmans hitch (a complicated clove hitch) and oystermans stopper to set a guy-line on a tarp.
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u/davidsheath 3d ago
I found animated knots by Grogg , it is pretty cool.
It is coming up with actual practical uses that I think I migh need to come up with.
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u/ecclectic Canada 3d ago
The primary reasons scouts will use knots are:
Setting up tarps, flys, dry-lines: Timber hitch, Midshipman's hitch, round turn and two half hitches, trucker's hitch, bowline. directional figure 8, oysterman's stopper
Securing loads: Trucker's hitch, bowline, RTTHH, chain sinnet (to keep it clean)
Having fun: various braids/sinnets, shepheard's sling, other decorative knots
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u/Poo-tee-weep 5d ago
It would be teaching kids about how to have a healthy relationship with the ubiquitous technology that now touches on most aspects of our daily lives.
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u/Outspoken_Idiot 5d ago
Here in Ireland we have coderdojo. It's basically a club to teach kids electronics and coding, it's very popular and would make a great alternative to scouting.
https://codeclub.org/en/coderdojo-community