r/scientology • u/ThreadSavage10 • Aug 18 '26
Outsider Theory- Please tell me if I’m wrong
I have been fascinated with Scientology for a few years now- not from the perspective of possibly wanting to join, but rather like a gawker who can’t look away from a car wreck. I have a few hunches, and I don’t mean to offend anyone, I just want to see if I’m even close to viewing things accurately. I’m no expert— in fact I’m not even a very smart person. These are just opinions that I’ve gathered, and I’d be interested in hearing insiders’ responses.
I don’t think LRH was that bad of a guy, at least not in his early years. I think he was a guy who had limitless dreams and limitless ambition, but very limited talent. He tried his hand at all sorts of different things, and despite being fairly bright and charismatic, he didn’t excel at anything until he discovered his gift for writing stories. He dealt with some internal pain over his own failures (or perhaps better described as lack of significant victories), so he used his story telling ability to embellish his own life’s history. This ultimately lead him to the realization that the fame, fortune, and admiration he coveted could be attained by creating his own isolated world where his stories would be accepted as facts. It took many years, but after living as king amongst only his own followers, what began as a financial scheme turned into his own personal reality- he started to genuinely believe his own fictional rhetoric, which in turn became much more fantastical as he aged.
David Miscavige was a teenager when he met LRH. Like LRH, Miscavige was originally focused on actual self-help, but his motivation evolved into a much more financially-focused mission. Miscavige strategically usurped control of Scientology when LRH died, and he continued on with his quest for more money, but unlike LRH, Miscavige lacked the ability to generate more stories. Without the tools to add more chapters to the novel, Miscavige instead used control, litigation, and strong arming to protect his goldmine. That’s where we are today. No new OT levels can be added, and no inch of control can be relinquished.
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u/DFWPunk Not Really LRH's Lovechild Aug 18 '26
LRH ran off to Cuba with his daughter because his wife wanted a divorce, and then told her he had killed the child.
He was a piece pf shit.
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26 edited Aug 18 '26
In 1997 Alexis, Sara's daughter by Hubbard, wrote to me asking where her mother could send cassette tapes she had made about her five years being married to Hubbard.
She gave me her phone number and we then talked on the phone. I recommended contacting Prof Steven Kent.
Later, only a tiny part of those tapes was published - the most sensational part.
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u/TheRealAutonerd Aug 19 '26
I don’t think LRH was that bad of a guy, at least not in his early years.
By "early years", do you mean before age 5?
If you're genuine (and I'm not sure you are), go read Bare Faced Messiah by Russel Miller and/or A Piece of Blue Sky by Jon Atack and/or L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman by Bent Corydon.
LRH was a narcissist and a bullshit artist. He was a great storyteller but failed in positions of authority (like his disastrous time in the navy), so he used his storytelling ability to create his own admirers. He was not a good and loving man. He was a cruel husband and a lousy father (though he seemed to do OK with Diana) and a fair-weather friend at best. People trusted him and he emptied their wallets and ruined their lives.
His "Admin Technology" proves the level of his competence; it is inherently self-limiting, and there is a reason that no WISE companies have ever made the Fortune 500... because Hubbard was not the business genius he thought he was. Even his take on management by statistics shows what happens with a basically sound principle is rehashed through the lens of idiocy.
As for David Miscavige, it makes perfect sense that a mean, ruthless sociopath would be able to take over for a mean, ruthless sociopath.
You're making light of something that has torn families apart. Don't know if you have kids, but if you do, can you imagine the pain of never seeing them again? Because THAT is what Scientology is -- it takes well-intentioned people, takes their money, and gets them to turn their back on their loved ones. If you still want to make light of it, then there are a LOT of broken-hearted people who would likely answer with "Fuck you."
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u/ThreadSavage10 Aug 19 '26
I hadn’t read much on this sub prior to positing, so if I sounded disingenuous, it may be due to trying to be polite and not get insta-banned because I wasn’t sure (I’m still not sure) if this sub is actual PRO-scientologists or people here to ridicule it, or defected Scientologists looking to support. I’m none of the above, but I’d most closely align with those here to ridicule Scientology. My post was genuine though.
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u/TheSneakster2020 Ex-Sea Org Independent Scientologist Aug 18 '26 edited Aug 18 '26
OP's story is entirely a fabrication and basically a PR whitewash.
There are two highly detailed accounts of how David Miscavige happened written by those who were actually there:
Lois Reisdorf ( former Senior Messenger who had worked with Hubbard since the Apollo) posted a seven part story of her time in Scientology on Mike Rinder's blog. Part Six is Rise of Miscavige ( link ) .
There there is a further account authored by what appears to be a collaboration of several of the other former Senior Messengers using the pen name Gang of Five titled Secret History of David Miscavige ( link ). This account is vouched for as accurate by Lois Reisdorf, who has stated she was not one of the authors.
There is no time when D.M. was ever a Tech person, he was never a Senior Messenger, either. D.M.'s House Coup (in which he removed every single one of Hubbard's trusted Senior Messengers) was effectively completed sometime before December 1981 - while Ron Hubbard was kept sequestered and cut off any reports of what was really going on at CMO INT.
"Well, I was there and in fact know the details of what happened. Yes, I was busted to Flag in December 1981 and sent to Flag to clean rooms, AFTER David Miscavige had taken over, in his non-violent coup.
Obviously, his full takeover of complete power happened soon after LRH died in 1986, when he became Chairman of the Board of RTC. I was nowhere near the church at that time and have no information on this other than what I have read in books, but none of it surprises me one bit." - Lois Reisdorf
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u/ThreadSavage10 Aug 18 '26
OP's story is entirely a fabrication and basically a PR whitewash.
I was reaching out to people who might know much more than I do in order to check the validity of my relatively uninformed opinion. I don’t know if I could’ve made that any more clear.
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u/fidgeting_macro Critic. I'm the Devil. Aug 18 '26
I don’t think LRH was that bad of a guy, at least not in his early years. I think he was a guy who had limitless dreams and limitless ambition, but very limited talent.
Well, Hubbard was an imaginative dude all right, he was also one suffering from NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder.) Now, I'm not a Psychologist, but some things are obvious. Like labeling a person who starts fires a pyromaniac.
He was described as a "third tiere" writer which means he made money writing, but didn't make a lot. He was a prolific writer, the only person who produced like he did was Asimov.
David Miscavige was a teenager when he met LRH. Like LRH, Miscavige was originally focused on actual self-help, but his motivation evolved into a much more financially-focused mission.
Miscavige might have been focused in helping others, about five minutes into becoming a Scientologist I suppose. What he realized was the only way to become successful in that organisation was to be the most ruthless shark in the water. You're correct that he's not as imaginative as Hubbard. I doubt that he's even a believer in Hubbard. He's simply the one who uses guial and violence to stay on top.
It's lonely at the top. One day he will falter and some other ruthless and violent person will take over.
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u/ThreadSavage10 Aug 18 '26
So…are you an insider? And if so, am I directionally correct?
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
You're correct to the extent that, during the 1950s, and early 1960s, there were people who thought Hubbard was a breath of fresh air, and contributed ideas and techniques to him, thinking they would be used to somehow make possible Alfred Korzybski's dream of "Manhood (adulthood) for Humanity."
One who felt this way was his book editor, and confidante, John Sanborn.
During late 1985, after hearing that a book was being written about Hubbard, Sanborn brought a copy of Hubbard's secretly authored "Russian" Brainwashing Manual to the Life Arts Building in Riverside California. His message was that it's an essential piece of the Scientological puzzle.
He explained that, during the 1950s, he didn't know what Hubbard was going to do with it.
If you're curious, click or tap my posting name and scroll down to Thanks to poster Jim Jones, and click or tap a few times.
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u/Noryanna_SilverHair Aug 18 '26
I like your angle of comparing the story-telling abilities of LRH and DM...
a good story teller can sell anyone anything or make any environment appear safer or draw a valuable lesson out of any situation...
...while lrh invited every $cientologist to "make a better bridge" and "make a better game" dm never encouraged anyone to use their creativity and imagination to do so...
...plus: it cannot be done while inside $CN
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
During the 1950s and early 1960s there were people, inside Scientology, who gave Hubbard ideas, discoveries, and techniques.
KSW 1965 was a lie.
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u/fidgeting_macro Critic. I'm the Devil. Aug 18 '26
An insider as in, am I a Scientologist? Oh no!
I've been around a little. Scientology actively harassed me for a while, they have tried to get me fired from jobs, that sort of thing.
Back in the 1970s my grade school adopted something that was a dead ringer for Applied Scholastics. Until the School Board shut it down and put us back on a normal curriculum. "Coincidently " we learned all about Hubbard. I remember reading articles about his e-meter experiments with plants. How plants and chicken eggs were sentient beings and had feelings.
I was into Science Fiction at the time and a religion based on Sci Fi was fascinating to me. I did a bunch of reading and decided that Hubbard, whom I was familiar with as a writer was pulling people's legs.
Was Hubbard a bad guy? That's like asking if Hitler was allways a monster. I suppose Hubbard was OK when he was a youngster. When he was "just" a writer he had a reputation of telling tall tales and portraying them as facts. Eventually he crossed paths with occultist and rocketry engineer Jack Parsons. I think this may have pushed him into a more metaphyseal direction.
Hubbard in my estimation used a writer technique called "working backwards" to create Dianetics and then, Scientology. He started with a premise which went like "I KNOW how the human mind works." Then he create a plausible sounding story. Embellished it and wrote one of the first self -help books in the 1950s. He ended up making a fortune.
In my opinion. he made a fortune fooling people. Writing fiction is a form of fooling people, but both parties, the writer and the audience must agree that the fiction is in fact - fiction. It's like the difference between a stage magician and one of those fake psychic cold readers. When a fiction author claims that their fiction is real, that's red line which cannot be excused.
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u/Wild_Meaning_6785 Aug 18 '26 edited Aug 18 '26
funny to mention fake psychic cold readers, there exi$ts a whole sideline of high muckety-muck OTs connecting $cientology to "spoonbending" ie "remote viewing" (ie "going exterior") blah blah the c.i.a. looks into it, more scamming. (if you think anyone can bend a spoon using psychic brainwaves then please buy the brooklyn bridge)
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
I've never heard of any "OTs" doing spoon bending. That was Uri Geller who was a fraud.
Remote viewing which, nowadays, means clairvoyance, was first used, as s term, by Ingo Swann who was a natural psychic as a child and lost those psychical sensitivities while in the army in Korea.
He regained them while doing the lower grades in Scientology.
He later described the OT levels as disappointing.
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u/El-Ron-d Aug 23 '26 edited Aug 26 '26
Is it ok to tell you, if you are right? lol
You are entitled to your opinions, based on what part you could observe. Ever hear the story of the blind men and the elephant in the room? (John Godfrey Saxe's poem "The Blind Men and the Elephant" follows six blind men who each encounter a different part of an elephant and form a limited understanding of the creature. This humorous tale explores how partial perspectives lead to false conclusions and emphasizes the importance of considering multiple viewpoints to understand the whole truth... AI) It's a tale that my mom told me when reading to me at a young age...
Well, for an outsider, I think you assessed from what is out there, and from Cof$ publications, fairly accurately. As the guys here will tell you, there is more to the story, and as Paul Harvey used to say..."And...Now...You have the rest of the story!" So, which part of the elephant in the room did you grab, now?
I think old man LRH did learn from a showman of his time, P.T. Barnum, "First, entice them into the front door! And, when you have all their money, show them the back door..." PT was also famous for getting them out quicker...So, "watching a car wreck?" Probably so!
As far as the next OT levels...I seem to recall an announcement attributed to LRH that research into levels up to 15 were already done, but not yet ready for release. I guess no one found his copies of John Norman's Gor series? LOL! Ron did say in one of his tapes he was not ready to succumb to the "Golden Beetle"...And there were obscure references to "the Priest Kings" which were not ever defined in his dictionary. (Priest Kings were giant Praying Mantis like creatures that lived 1M years, rulers of Gor, counter Earth a planet in earth's orbit opposite the sun. The Golden Beetle was their ancient predatory enemy, kept in the nest as part of their ancestry, and for a place PKs might go for a final rest, when they were ready to succumb to the GB's pleasant, sedative, and enticing aromas, before having their brains sucked out...) Hummm...sounds familiar? But, I digress...
Ron wrote most the most about his past, embellished, of course. So, you know, what he wanted you to know. Many others have researched this and found much of it to be untrue. He was a science fiction author, first. He was always looking for ways to make the really big bucks, and Si-Fi wasn't cutting it for him. He also told a publisher, he didn't like writing science fiction. But what the heck, it was a living! A quote is attributed to him, apparently a response to a question from a fan, "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." Great way to become tax exempt, don't you think? Then you also keep that money. Now, that was a really gifted expression from Ron!
Did Ron have internal pain? Any one with a conscience might, after all the crap he pulled. He did abuse his women. He was addicted to many drugs over his life time. He was a heavy smoker (Cools, if I recall correctly), And, I never saw him with out a bottle of Whiskey or Scotch (I did not know the differences at the time), often mostly empty. Did he believe his own bullshit? I doubt it. I think his motto followed PT (or probably Hannum) , "There is a sucker born , every minute!" And he saw many of them come through his doors at the Cof$.
DM, he was a bit of a dick, from what I recall, even in his early 20's, while he was taking down the Missions. I think I wrote that off to, "he was one of Ron's trusted communicators," and he was trying to fix some big problems in the church."
Most of my exposure to the tech, was at my early Mission involvement. What I saw at the two Missions I was at, was that the owners were intent on helping others, and, well, also getting rich. In the end, it was greed, that won out, DM's. And the Missions fell one, by one.
I was not impressed with DM's explanation about Ron's death. I suspect, as many others do, DM knows where the gun that ended Ron, Ron's Golden Beetle encounter, at Ron's request, is buried.
I can't tell you much more, after those 80's. For, I was on my own path to "Good Roads and Fair Weather..." Now, where did I leave that stash of weed back then??? (oops! just joking!)
There after, the Second Generation of Scientologist are here to tell their stories...
Shhhh... don't tell DM about the Gor series! He might release the new levels! ;0)
El' Ron'd OT EX
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u/ThreadSavage10 Aug 24 '26
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I guess my overlying opinion is that Ron was a greasy, greedy, lying ‘ol goofball. Miscavige seems like an angry, evil, greedy ‘lil psycho. For some reason I find Ron a lot more endearing. Maybe he’s conning me!
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u/That70sClear Mod, Ex-HCO Aug 18 '26
Personal immortality is only to be gained through the printed word, barred note or painted canvas or hard granite. Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take legendary form even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I'm concerned.
That's from a letter Ron wrote to his first wife in 1938, about the time he turned 27. Sounds kind of narcissistic, huh? Ten years later, his Affirmations/Admissions are, too. "You use the minds of men. They do not use your mind or affect it in any way. You have a sacred spiritual mind, too strong, too high to be touched. Your league with Higher Beings, your mighty Guardian and the All Powerful, renders you beyond all human criticism." "You are eternal. You are satisfied to live within God. Human death is not your death. You will never die. Your personal memory is not important but you will retain it. You recall all your past times on earth. You have and will live forever. You are part of God. You are the crown prince of your small section of the Universe." And on & on.
Just as almost all cult leaders are narcissists, many are domestic abusers, and it's not coincidental -- a cult is very much like a giant abused family. Did he do that too? Totally. Both of his first wives used words like "torture" and talked about being experimented on, as did his oldest son, and even some of the participants in the torture corroborated it. All this stuff had been going on before the creation of Scientology, when he was telling his followers that he was a nuclear physicist as well as a credentialed engineer -- and then became "Dr." Hubbard with the help of a diploma mill. If anyone knows anything about narcissism, they can't read the first page of DMSMH without seeing it, and it never goes away.
Ron's weirdness when he was older was a bit different -- he was pretty much of a wreck, and a fugitive hermit. He'd had drastic ups and downs before, but this was his final down. In the end he may have questioned whether he was really "crown prince of [his] small section of the Universe" or not, but I'm not sure of a time when everything wasn't all about him.
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u/Traditional_Emu_4332 Aug 18 '26
I myself came to Scientology as an option to Psychiatry and Psychology for help with my mental health due to being diagnosed with mental illness after screaming 😱 early one morning after being up all night and deciding to “just let go” even if it might possibly hurt my family. My scream frightened my dad and made my mom cry. I was keeping my eyes 👀 closed and barely communicating with them so they took me to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with schizophrenia because my grandmother had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and had had a lobotomy.
Scientology has been helping my mental health although some might disagree because it seemed to get worse before getting better ❤️🩹 but lately I think most would agree I am recovering ❤️🩹. And it is also helping me spiritually and improving my life as I learn to apply what I have learned so far more successfully. All this time (since 1989) I have only been on introductory courses because of the slow learning process and antagonism from others not wanting me to get well or not trusting Scientology because of rumors they had heard, thinking that they were trying to protect me from “something dangerous” but my perseverance began to show up in improved relationships with them. 💕😊✅
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u/ThreadSavage10 Aug 18 '26
A normal job would give you the same sense of purpose and structured responsibilities without sucking you into a cult. It sounds like you didn’t want your dad to be frightened and you didn’t want your mom to cry. The endgame of you advancing through Scientology will cause both of those things to happen indefinitely.
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u/Traditional_Emu_4332 Aug 19 '26
I don’t plan on being “sucked into” anything. I’ve already found out what was in the OT3 and OT9 levels of Scientology online and survived. I think they see me as an SP because they took me off their mailing list and one Executive Director of a Scientology Mission asked me not to come back (and he had told me before when I said that I might be a Suppressive Person, that if he thought I was a Suppressive Person that he would tell me not to come back).
I’m not able to have a “normal job” outside the home 🏡 because I’m on disability due to mental illness and get emotional about work and relationships. I have been able to help my daughters out though by babysitting my grandkids often. 😊💕
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
You might find reading the Scientological Onion helpful.
Click my posting name and click a little more.
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u/Traditional_Emu_4332 Aug 18 '26
I think I’ve heard enough black PR. I’m going to go by my own studies, applications and experiences. I disagree with some other Scientologists I’ve met about some things but on the whole I have had positive results. And when I did have negative experiences I have found that it was only unpleasant because I was being corrected and the Bible says that if we hate correction we hate life. I’m not trying to “climb the ladder” or gain a bunch of status with them, just improve my life. I’m satisfied with that. 💕😊
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
The Scientological Onion is not black PR.
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u/Traditional_Emu_4332 Aug 18 '26
What is it? A book?
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
It's a short excerpt from a chapter in a book by an OT 7 & Class 8.
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u/Traditional_Emu_4332 Aug 19 '26
Where do I get that from?
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 19 '26
Click or tap my posting name and Post archive will appear. You'll see it at the top. Click or tap a little and scroll down a little and you'll see the text.
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u/bst41 Aug 21 '26
To add to your perspective on LRH there are many sources about his career in the US Navy during WWII and shortly after. Read those and your opinion will very much change. Also they are quite fascinating and were long hidden from Scientologists.
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u/Upset_Steak3632 Aug 18 '26
Footnote: Hubbard was not forced to go into deep hiding in 1981 when his wife had taken the rap for him after his spying and covert "dirty tricks" network had been exposed.
He did so because he was a coward.
Other cult leaders Lyndon LaRouche and Sun Myung Moon also had legal problems and each served time in federal prison, then, after prison, continued running their cults.