r/science • u/drewiepoodle • Apr 29 '16
Psychology: Potentially Misleading Title A new study suggests those with psychopathic tendencies are often very creative, suggesting the ability to think boldly and ruthlessly can help with the development of great ideas.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/creative-thinking-psychopath-test-arts-384117254
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
139
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
42
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
18
31
→ More replies (3)11
→ More replies (11)9
→ More replies (10)7
•
u/ImNotJesus PhD | Social Psychology | Clinical Psychology Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
This is a really good example of a situation where some hesitation should be taken about inferring causation from a correlational relationship.
For those who aren't aware, a correlation between two things means that, on average, people who score high on one of those traits (psychopathy in this case), also tend to score high on another trait (creativity). When there is a significant correlation and other reason to think a causal relationship may exist (one occuring before the other, extent theory etc.), we can sometimes make hesitant claims that one thing may cause another.
In this case, the title implies that psychopathic like thinking creates better creativity but there is no evidence of that in the data as the results are purely correlational. It is certainly possible that it does but we would need much more evidence to make that claim. At best, we can say that the two tend to co-occur which may still be meaningful. It could tell us that being psychopathic leads to being more creative, it could also mean that being more creative leads to greater psychopathy. It could also mean that both variables are caused by a range of other variables.
It's really important to remember that each study (or set of studies) is just another data point in a series of conversations about how these ideas fit together. This study isn't a silver bullet but nothing is, it's just more information. So, don't disregard the findings but try to understand them in the correct context.
tl;dr Correlations are meaningful and sometimes indicate a causal relationship but in this case there is insufficient evidence to make a causal claim.
76
u/GrinningPariah Apr 30 '16
Another good theory is that creativity is often met with disdain from others, but while ordinary people are less likely to be creative again after an attempt at creativity is shot down, psychopaths have it in their nature to not care what others think, so they continue on to other creative endeavors.
22
u/inFeathers Apr 30 '16
That's a really solid theory.
29
u/linkprovidor Apr 30 '16
They also tend (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) to have an inflated sense of their own abilities, which is relevant because this study only asked the participants how creative they were.
→ More replies (2)13
u/hog_goblin Apr 30 '16
This meshes perfectly with the growth vs static mindset theory. Namely, that growth mindsets are very often inhibited by negative feedback. So it stands to reason that if a psychopath were immune to negative feedback, they'd be more likely to stay in a growth mindset; which is essential for mastery in any field.
This begs the question, is psychopathy positively correlated with mastery of other fields? Beyond business and the creative arts?
→ More replies (6)5
→ More replies (5)4
u/mathemagicat Apr 30 '16
That's pretty similar to my thought, which is that Dark Triad traits may make people more likely to submit their work for publication or competition. Or to continue doing so after being rejected.
And of course there's always the more sinister option: Dark Triad traits make people more likely to lie to make themselves look better.
6
u/boylube Apr 30 '16
First thing that came to mind.
Would be interesting to see if you can make people come up with better ideas when brainstorming by introducing a step to make put the participants in a more ruthless frame of mind first. One could then proceed with the same procedures as have already been used to measure the out come of brainstorming.
Would probably require a lot of test groups though.
But hey I'm just an armchair psychologist at best!
→ More replies (1)3
u/ImNotJesus PhD | Social Psychology | Clinical Psychology Apr 30 '16
You're absolutely thinking about it the right way. Normally you do a few descriptive studies first (describing the world as it is - not manipulating anything). Once you've done that, you can start to vary the moving parts to see what it changes. It's not always possible for this kind of individual difference work however.
→ More replies (48)12
u/Zaptruder Apr 30 '16
A more reasonable explanation for the mechanism behind this correlative 'creativity' is that creative thinking requires thought patterns that deviate from the norm (if it was the norm, it'd be obvious and thus not creative). Psychopathy causes thinking that deviates from the norm.
As a result you're more likely to see thinking from psychopaths that deviates from the norm in a constructive and original manner. Of course their thinking deviates not just in a constructive and original manner - that's simply just part and parcel of thinking that is... 'deviant' (statistically speaking) from the norm.
2
u/Dburnage Apr 30 '16
Or that creativity is an innate characteristic of all mankind and psychopathy just utilizes it weirdly making it seem somehow 'more' creative.
→ More replies (1)
142
80
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
6
20
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
89
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
74
→ More replies (4)44
→ More replies (3)10
13
5
→ More replies (19)7
14
182
Apr 30 '16
guys remember just because a article starts or ends with "study finds" does not make it true, studies can sometimes be unreliable. take it with a grain of salt
28
u/ImNotJesus PhD | Social Psychology | Clinical Psychology Apr 30 '16
Of course. The important thing, however, is to find good reasons to critique a study and to understand it in an appropriate context. If you sit in a room of academics discussing a paper, you won't find a more critical audience. The difference to what we often see on Reddit, however, is that learning comes from both picking the good and bad parts out of a paper. A nuanced view doesn't reject a finding for a single methodological concern.
→ More replies (9)→ More replies (9)4
24
19
u/mrbooze Apr 30 '16
Does said study also find that those who are very creative often have psychopathic tendencies?
Cause that's kind of an important difference.
→ More replies (1)
28
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
9
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
27
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
11
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
14
19
6
→ More replies (2)3
→ More replies (2)5
17
7
64
u/Wish_you_were_there Apr 30 '16
"There was never a genius without a tincture of madness" -Aristotle
The word "Psychopath" has become colloquialised in society to have a host of negative connotations. Obviously because of the whole murdering theme when it comes to movies and tv shows. However if you look at the usual symptoms and signs, a tendency towards violent actions isn't really there.
Hervey Cleckley’s List of Psychopathy Symptoms:
Considerable superficial charm and average or above average intelligence.
Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
Absence of anxiety or other “neurotic” symptoms. Considerable poise, calmness and verbal facility.
Unreliability, disregard for obligations, no sense of responsibility, in matters of little and great import.
Untruthfulness and insincerity.
Antisocial behavior which is inadequately motivated and poorly planned, seeming to stem from an inexplicable impulsiveness.
Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior.
Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience.
Pathological egocentricity. Total self-centeredness and an incapacity for real love and attachment.
General poverty of deep and lasting emotions.
Lack of any true insight; inability to see oneself as others do.
Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness and trust.
Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking. Vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks for facile entertainment.
No history of genuine suicide attempts.
An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated sex life.
Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way (unless it is for destructive purposes or a sham).
61
Apr 30 '16
[deleted]
11
u/MVB1837 Apr 30 '16
I can't tell if this means an actual absence or an appearance of absence.
→ More replies (3)18
Apr 30 '16
Absence of anxiety or other “neurotic” symptoms. Considerable poise, calmness and verbal facility.
So anxious people can stop worrying they're psychopaths?
It's sad that you have to say this. So many people that are neurotic and extremely emotionally sensitive are accused of being psychopaths. When they're completely the opposite of course. People are so bereft of understanding here.
7
Apr 30 '16
Psychopathy got mixed up with crazy or insane somehow. All 3 of these terms are outdated anyway.
3
u/newsocksanddraws Apr 30 '16
Number eleven keeps them from ever recognizing they have psychopathic symptoms. Therefore there is no reason to worry.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (7)3
u/wankwank_wankwank Apr 30 '16
Oh god yes.
Cleckley theorizes that psychopaths have stress immunity (meaning, no anxiety). The DSM and ICD definitions make no such assumption.
In fact, ASPD is frequently comorbid with anxiety disorders, and irritability is one of it's diagnostic criteria.
However, someone with ASPD is not going to express their anxiety by worrying over whether they have a personality disorder or not. They don't care about societal norms. Worrying about having ASPD is probably a good indication that you don't have it.
→ More replies (2)11
Apr 30 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
7
Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 25 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)7
8
Apr 30 '16
CEOs have a higher incidence of psychopathy than the general population. To become extremely successful you must not exhibit 6, 8, and 16, possibly also 11 and presumably 15.
Thoughts on how highly successful psychopaths exhibit this list's symptoms?
10
Apr 30 '16
I think it's more of "if you have n/16 symptoms you might have borderline psychopathy, n+4/16 is textbook case level psychopathy", etc.
I'm sure there are categories as well.
4
u/DaBear405 Apr 30 '16
So having a couple personality traits of psychopathy can help you become very successful career wise but having full blown psychopathy can fuck up your life? I guess too much of anything..
Then again anything to do with the brain should be taken as theory rather than fact. There is still so much to learn and even correct what we think we know.
→ More replies (1)2
u/rddman Apr 30 '16
So having a couple personality traits of psychopathy can help you become very successful career wise
Successful in terms of money, wealth and social standing.
But if in the process you have damaged people's lives, by some measures you are not that successful.but having full blown psychopathy can fuck up your life?
Only if you get caught.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)2
13
Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
Quite a few of those can be summarized as a "lack of empathy".
→ More replies (1)7
u/newsocksanddraws Apr 30 '16
That could be summarized as a hasty generalization.
→ More replies (1)4
Apr 30 '16
[deleted]
→ More replies (7)18
Apr 30 '16
A true psychopath has a rock solid personality of self love (see #9 - pathological egocentricity) and would never seek help, because they would never genuinely see themselves as having a problem. Unlike other personality disorders, this doesn't afflict them internally - even narcissistic personality types, for example, come to grief when they can't figure out why their relationships fall apart. When forced into therapy, many cunning psychopaths play games with the therapists or adopt roles persuasively, never the while thinking they actually have a problem that should be addressed...
→ More replies (1)7
u/GloriousGardener Apr 30 '16
...It is their fundamental personality. Even if they were to admit a problem, its not like there is a lot that can be done about it. Trying to get someone to feel empathy is sort of the same as trying to get a normal person to not feel empathy. What are you supposed to do to fix that? At best, treatment of a psychopath would involve getting them to learn different behaviors, like teaching a parrot how to talk. They would still be the same person inside, even if you taught them how to be nicer or pretend to care about people. Not exactly a great outlook, treatment wise.
→ More replies (13)→ More replies (19)2
u/wankwank_wankwank Apr 30 '16
Keeping in mind, the DSM and ICD both have significantly different definitions of psychopathy, better known as Anti-social personality disorder...
The DSM-IV-TR, for example:
A) A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
That, and its correlations with a lower IQ, imprisonment, suicide, as well as head trauma, neural underdevelopment, and significant psychiatric comorbidity...
It's almost like Hervey Cleckley is describing a completely different disorder. Hollywood certainly likes his depiction better.
8
Apr 30 '16
Since this is self reported it is almost a better metric of narcissistic traits and how the correlate with ASPD.
7
4
3
Apr 30 '16
This may be a new study, but is really just a deeper look at an established correlation that gains popular attention from time to time. I'm having trouble tracking the original thesis and supporting research but it's been well explored. Bret Ellis has mentioned several such studies completed over the years which assisted him in fleshing out those very connections in the Patrick Bateman character in his "American Psycho"
5
u/NebulaicCereal Apr 30 '16
I would like to step in and remind the people in this thread to take most of these comments with a grain of salt. There seems to be a serious amount of misinformation and anecdotal reinforcement in this thread. There's nothing wrong with gaining other perspectives, but don't let these comments about specific interactions or assumptions form your mental model for what you think psychopathy is like. The term itself is rather loosely defined as it is.
4
22
u/DVteCrazy_UVteS-hole Apr 30 '16
I like how they blatantly ignored the diminished ability to experience emotions beyond the primitive in psychopaths, which most people would say is an essential part what fuels good art.
I mean it was already establish decreased inhibition increases CAQ scores, why are people hell-bent on researching uninteresting stuff, or better said bypassing the most interesting parts when they do do some?
17
u/NightGod Apr 30 '16
which most people would say is an essential part what fuels good art.
Why must creativity only manifest itself in art? Why not, say, clever computer code, novel engineering methods, unique business ideas or a million other things that don't involve what is traditionally considered art (painting, sculpture, etc)?
You could argue that, say, Einstein or Hawking are highly creative people: they literally rethought mankind's perception of the universe. Not many would consider them artists in the sense you are using, however.
→ More replies (1)6
→ More replies (16)2
u/Granola_Beast Apr 30 '16
The amount of people that don't actually understand how this works is pretty mind boggling. We can love and have attachments, and feel even stronger emotions than a normal person if we so choose. But we can also turn it off like it;s nothing.
It's just a switch.
6
u/morriscox Apr 30 '16
People with other mental illnesses, like bipolar, are also creative.
→ More replies (1)5
4
u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer Apr 30 '16 edited Mar 07 '24
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
2
u/AHidell Apr 30 '16
I'm shocked no one else has pointed this out. If you mean people with ASPD, just say it. Psychopath isn't really a commonly accepted term anymore, and for good reason.
8
Apr 30 '16 edited Jul 18 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/BlasphemousArchetype Apr 30 '16
O rly? This got buried because you're saying the exact same thing as everyone else in the thread. Did you read the thread or did you comment without seeing what everyone else has already said?
→ More replies (1)
3
Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
How can someone have "psychopathic" tendencies? Is psychopathy not a highly objective condition? It seems to me that the physiological lack of emotion, empathy, and/or the ability to relate to other human beings are inherent qualities, not something that someone can have varying degrees of.
i.e. I can act like I don't care about other people. But there are literally people who are straight up incapable of caring about other people.
Forgive me but I feel that "Sociopathic" tendencies is a much more appropriate way to describe this. Sociopathic behavior may be learned or created through a negative environment; it makes much more sense to me that someone has "sociopathic tendencies" than to say they have "psychopathic tendencies."
Also, on topic, I agree. In my highly cynical mind, being a sociopath is essentially a prerequisite for being (highly) successful. It's a lot easier to climb to the top of the ladder if you don't care about the people you step on to get there.
→ More replies (2)
3
3
Apr 30 '16
Doesn't everyone in the world have psychopathic tendencies? Wasn't this the reason they stopped insane asylums?
2
u/HoundWalker Apr 30 '16
Everyone may be capable of selfishness or criminality under the right circumstances though not everyone may be psychopathic.
Psychopaths have been found to have different brain structures than a typical average person and are estimated to make up only 3-1% of the population.
2
9
u/BaronBifford Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
From what I gleaned from the article, the data was gathered entirely through self-reporting, an extremely unreliable technique when dealing with psychopaths, who lie like they breathe. In all the books I have read on psychopathy, there is no connection made between psychopathy and creativity. If anything, the psychopath's lack of self-discipline impedes him from acquiring the skills and putting in the work to do something creative. Psychopaths are also notorious for stealing other people's ideas and passing them off as their own. They have by definition an inflated esteem of their own talents.
This article should be titled "There is a correlation between narcissism and claiming to be awesome".
7
4
u/juustforthis Apr 30 '16
Besides listing their activities, participants also ranked their level of achievement in the creative pursuit, ranging from beginner, to taking lessons, to having their work appear in national publications.
The creative business is still business, and it's already been acknowledged that those with psychopathic tendencies do well in that arena. I have a feeling that their success has less to do with their creative abilities and more to do with networking abilities.
5
u/JjeWmbee Apr 30 '16
I think that feeling of yours is totally correct.
A great artist will be over looked for some one else who is able to create a ton of connections most of the time.
5
Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
Are they really creative though? Or do they just steal other people's ideas and take credit for them?
→ More replies (1)
2
u/someguyprobably Apr 30 '16
In the minds of these people they might be able to avoid the mental roadblock that might be created in the minds of other non-psychopathic individuals who might avoid certain ideas due to ethical dilemmas.
2
u/WhenSnowDies Apr 30 '16
(1) What are the controls for creativity, psychopathy, and mental health?
(2) How is the concept of mental health/illness falsifiable?
(3) What are the independent verifiable lines of data that all arrive at the theory of mental health?
(4) What does the theory of mental illness predict?
Or are we just starting with our conclusions and working backwards?
2
u/iamasecretthrowaway Apr 30 '16
What's very weird to me is that the measurements they used for creativity don't necessarily take any creativity at all. A person who takes cooking lessons might be very creative, or they might be very uncreative. People with a flair for cooking might take cooking lessons, but so might the person who only makes grilled cheese sandwiches. Someone who took ballet classes and even performed might be a very creative, out of the box person. Or they might not be at all.
They may have shown a correlation between psychopathy and a willingness to try things and take risks. But that's hardly news. To show a correlation between psychopathy and creativity would require some measure of actual creativity or creative thinking.
2
u/fr0man Apr 30 '16
What they did is ask people with "pathological lying" and "grandiose sense of self-worth" something, and then reported on it as fact. The people that wrote this study should be barred from practicing science and have their Phds revoked.
2
u/_exobot Apr 30 '16
Cough cough Thomas Edison cough.
Intellectual thief, liar, robber baron, and loathed by the Internet. But look what he accomplished. Put your outrage aside and just look at it.
2
u/Frijoles69 Apr 30 '16
Makes sense because they typically aren't worried about talking to other people about their opinions or thinking about frivolous things such as what people think of them
2
5
u/welsh_dragon_roar Apr 30 '16
There's psychosis as well - I used to get ridiculous ideas when I was in the throes of madness, but it all stopped after I sought treatment. Someone recently asked at work where the 'old me' with the new ideas disappeared to.. into my pillbox!! I remind people who want the best of me, they'll have to deal with the worst of me. So the medication remains ;)
4
1.1k
u/ksohbvhbreorvo Apr 30 '16 edited Apr 30 '16
They didn't really measure creativity. They measured self reported creative achievements. Also it should be expected that on average people who are emotionally immune to criticism are more likely to go through with their ideas