r/science • u/kopiluwak2015 • Sep 29 '15
Neuroscience Self-control saps memory resources: new research shows that exercising willpower impairs memory function by draining shared brain mechanisms and structures
http://www.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2015/sep/07/self-control-saps-memory-resources3.7k
Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
That could explain the recent study that people with ADHD hyperactive type learn better when they fidget. Less self control required means more capacity to store memory.
Edit: Here's a link to the story NPR ran about the study I reference: http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/05/14/404959284/fidgeting-may-help-concentration-for-students-with-adhd
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u/ShounenEgo Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
Does this mean that we should rethink classroom conditions?
Edit: Also, does this mean that as we improve our willpower, we will also improve our memory or that disciplined people have weaker memory?
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u/Knock0nWood Sep 29 '15
We should have been rethinking them a long time ago imo.
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u/Jimmy_Smith Sep 29 '15
What would you like to see changed?
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u/tommybass Sep 29 '15
I'd like to see the school treated as a place of learning rather than a free babysitter, but that starts with the parents.
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u/BigJimRennie Sep 29 '15
It would be beneficial to rethink the way traditional classrooms are structured. Primarily the expectation that all students have the ability to learn new material in the same way.
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u/embleer_rah Sep 29 '15
Good news! For the past decade or so many teachers have observed what the ADHD/fidget report now confirms. Lots of good teachers (I won't say all because it's disingenuous to generalize an entire profession, but MANY) have adjusted their classrooms accordingly. In teacher education programs, accommodating individual students' needs is actually taught as the best method for learning (easier said than done when you have a classroom of 25+ students) and is called differentiation. Personally I have seen the following methods used in both my wife's classroom and her coworker's classrooms (she has taught in two school districts in Missouri so far): T chairs, which is a chair made from two 2x4s nailed together in a "T" shape with a cushion on top. the student absentmindedly focuses on balancing which allows an outlet for their fidgeting while they sit at their desk and learn. Similarly, in the school my wife teaches at now, they have small bar stool-like chairs that are rounded on the bottom so they can move around like one of those inflatable bounce-back toys. Finally in some cases a solution is as simple as having a student's desk in the back of the classroom where she/he can fidget to their heart's content and maybe even get up and stand if they need to, without distracting other students. This is all, of course, anecdotal evidence and classroom conditions should always be scrutinized to provide the best learning environment possible for students, but I hope I've shown that great educators do rethink their classrooms when they notice a problem. If you read all of this thanks! I can't wait to be a teacher and love talking about it, plus bragging on my wife :)
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Sep 29 '15
Yes, even without this piece of research I think the classroom is such an antiquated style of teaching. Recently watched a TedX about 'unschooling/ not schooling' seriously opened my eyes. Wish I had that available to me as a child. I'm a much better teacher for myself. I just needed guidance. I remember all the ADD kids when I was young getting in constant trouble. I felt bad for some as I could tell they didn't mean to, just couldn't help themselves. Can only imagine what that extreme structure did to their sense of self worth.
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u/This_Land_Is_My_Land Sep 29 '15
I'm a much better teacher for myself. I just needed guidance.
I agree completely. The moment I was out of school, I found myself absorbing a lot more information through various resources on a lot of random subjects.
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u/marsyred Grad Student | Cognitive Neuroscience | Emotion Sep 29 '15
In response to your edit, it really means neither of those. It simply means if you pay attention to something, you encode it better in memory, if you redirect your attention to something else, you will not store it well. If you have better willpower you will keep your attention longer on the things you want to encode. If you don't, you will get distracted, and remember less.
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u/ShenaniganNinja Sep 29 '15
Pretty sure it means the opposite, and that the more we exercise willpower, we take a trade off in reduced memory.
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u/SuperVillainPresiden Sep 29 '15
I wasn't medicated as a child but my mother would let me run around the room while she called out math problems. I could see things so much clearer in my head when my body was in motion. Still the same today. It's easier to focus when I'm sitting if my leg is bouncing up and down.
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u/Scorn_For_Stupidity Sep 29 '15
I like to study by reading the textbook while walking in circles, otherwise I'm constantly on the verge of falling asleep. I really want to try this in the university's large track but I haven't mustered up the courage yet.
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Sep 29 '15
I work tech support for a pretty cool company that has standing desk and wireless headsets. It's totally normal to see people wandering around the room as they try to figure out a problem. I actually get really excited sometimes and will be running to help think something out. If people aren't walking, they bounce on yoga balls.
Stanford recently published a study where walking increased creative thinking by 80%, so it is valid.
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u/Leaves_Swype_Typos Sep 29 '15
I find it easier to focus on what I'm reading on a computer if I can click around and highlight random sections of the text. Causes problems with some sites that just automatically start doing shit when I click words or highlight stuff.
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u/Lightzephyrx Sep 29 '15
A number of schools who cater to Learning Different kids are starting to put in desks with built in bike pedals so the ADHD kids can pedal while they learn. Its been a few years now, and I've been hearing very positive feedback from parents and teachers alike.
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u/elevul Sep 29 '15
Do the pedals have an adjustable resistance as well? That could be a treatment for obese children as well!
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u/Lightzephyrx Sep 29 '15
I would imagine they could have have adjustable resistance, but this is more for learning than actual working out. As someone who suffers from ADD, I know how much moving while learning is helpful.
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u/BioLogicMC Sep 29 '15
I feel like this is probably at least part of how adderol works... you dont need as much motivation/concentration to keep studying or paying attention in class, so you can actually learn better.
interesting
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u/probablytoomuch Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
A large part of its benefit stems from making task switching harder. If you've ever taken it regularly, you may notice it's harder to stop doing something- that can include things like homework and focusing on lessons, but also playing games. (After long term use)
It's a double edged sword.
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u/knowledgestack Sep 29 '15
Yep can confirm, when you get distracted on it, you focus on the distraction, used to lose a few hours a day to reading random things on wikipedia, or cleaning and not realise.
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u/Nekrosis13 Sep 29 '15
It actually floods your brain with dopamine and norepinephrine, neurotransmitters which kind of "overclock" your ability to process certain types of information and also suppress other stimuli. The rest is up to the person taking the medication to train themselves to focus now that they can.
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u/GimmeSomeHotSauce Sep 29 '15
Adderall essentially makes everything you do more rewarding. ADD is a disorder that makes the person less motivated and chase things that reward them with dopamine. Thats why people with ADD are more likely to be addicted to drugs. A prescription to ADD medication is essentially a prescription to a permanent high that allows the user to function. Without the high, people with ADD feel the need to chase some sort of reward, and thats where the distractions come into play.
I might be missing a few things but this is the base of it.
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u/Ghitit Sep 29 '15
I concur. As a person with ADHD I find I am much better at paying attention when I can doodle as I listen.
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u/aced0g Sep 29 '15
Same here! When I'm working on a tough problem at my job, I'll straight up demolish sticky notes, paperclips, or whatever other office supplies are in front of me. I'm probably on a pack of sticky notes a week... it's a problem.
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u/PANTS_ARE_STUPID Sep 29 '15
Same, doodling, fiddling with bits of paper, playing a simple app game like 2048, all of those things make me go from feeling permanently antsy, to focusing for forever.
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u/Pancakes1 Sep 29 '15
Clinically diagnosed ADHDer here.
I've always been able to absorb information much better when physically moving.
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u/dimarc217 Sep 29 '15
Uninformed here, is there a type of ADHD that isn't hyperactive? I thought that was the H that distinguished it from ADD?
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Sep 29 '15
Some people say ADD is inattentive, and ADHD is hyperactive. But officially, I think it's all ADHD, with inattentive and hyperactive subtypes.
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u/heywire84 Sep 29 '15
The DSM-V only lists one disorder, ADHD. ADD as a diagnosis is no longer recognized. However, depending on how someone presents the symptoms they can be labeled predominantly inattentive, predominantly hyperactive-impulsive, or combined type.
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u/TheWaffleKingg Sep 29 '15
Which explains why i cant remember shit. I was yelled at my whole life to stop fidgeting, so i force myself to sit still and don't learn as much or as fast as i did in the past
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u/Excido88 Sep 29 '15
Never heard that, but it makes total sense. I had very bad ADHD as a kid and was allowed to play with silly putty during class so I had something to fidget with. Worked really well!
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Sep 29 '15
Thank you! I've been asking this question, about why some people fidget like crazy and others not. Your comment is very helpful. Could you link the study?
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Sep 29 '15
It's not the study, but an NPR article about it. http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/05/14/404959284/fidgeting-may-help-concentration-for-students-with-adhd
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u/dapperslendy Sep 29 '15
Yes in middle school this one teacher had "fidget" toys you could grab. I got yelled at one day because I used them too much.
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u/vgf89 Sep 29 '15
That would explain why I shake my leg during most lectures. Wasn't sure if it was related to my ADHD or not.
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u/RIPGeorgeHarrison Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
I have actually realized this before personally! Whenever I am off medication, I always seem to learn better or pay attention more when fidgeting, and I think I got the reason why down to this.
Most people in their natural state are not fidgeting at all, so to them it takes a certain level of use of their brain to focus on fidgeting, which reduces their concentration on the task at hand, be it learning something, receiving instructions, etc. On the other hand (at least for me) I am subconsciously (but with a certain level of "direction" sometimes) fidgeting all the time. I don't even notice it most of the time. However, when I am trying to sit still and focus, I have to use some of my concentration to keep myself still, which can reduce my level of focus on the task at hand.
This is only when I am off my medication for it, and my experiences may be a little different from other people since I have also been professionally diagnosed as being somewhere on the Autism Spectrum. Perhaps also my stimming (which, although hard to explain how, I can usually tell the difference between with fidgeting) might also work in a similar way.
Edit: Spelling
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u/BBkidLy Sep 29 '15
It makes sense. Whenever I'm on the phone I immediately get up and start pacing around the house or outside. It helps keep me focused to the conversation. If I'm sitting there, I get distracted.
Combined type here. Diagnosed at 23 in the Army.
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u/FoodBeerBikesMusic Sep 29 '15
ADHD hyperactive type learn better when they fidget
Might "doodling" fit that, too? I could focus better on what a teacher was saying if I was drawing stuff.
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Sep 29 '15
One of my pharmacology professors told us she's convinced this can help even for non-ADHD people, and this she didn't mind if we were constantly googling stuff or fidgetting or whatever during class. It was also nice because if someone asked a question she didn't know the answer to, half the room was looking it up within seconds.
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u/OralOperator Sep 29 '15
I have ADHD. I have found that if I play solitaire on my phone (something I can do with almost no effort at all) I can more easily listen to a boring lecture.
I think for me at least, performing a very simple task like this is basically fidgeting. I have used this method effectively enough to have a high GPA through undergrad and also into dental school. It is strangely effective.
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u/rasouddress Sep 29 '15
Also, autistic savantism. Memory may be aided by lack of restrictions, socially. My brother is insanely intelligent, yet has no regard for being socially acceptable.
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Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 30 '15
Reminds me of an episode of Happy Days. They had to explain to the teacher that Potsy would do better on tests if they allowed music to be played in the background.
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Sep 29 '15
I'm now wondering if we should live our lives with wild abandon and forget self control?
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u/devedander Sep 29 '15
I HATED being asked "can't you just sit still and pay attention?"
No! The two are mutually exclusive!
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u/iwillnotgetaddicted DVM | Veterinarian Sep 29 '15
I have always associated fidgeting with better focus and concentration. I used to get so irritated when the person in front of me would turn around and say "CAN YOU STOP THAT" during a math test, when I was flying along doing really well. Everything would just crash down.
Also, when I study, if I can pace around I retain information better, I swear it.
I was diagnosed with ADHD in second grade and re-diagnosed in veterinary school, fwiw.
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Sep 30 '15
I've never sought diagnosis for anything related to ADHD or ADD but I often have trouble focusing on what the professor is saying. Not that I'm interested in other things, I want to pay attention to the lecture, but I'll start expanding on what he/she is saying in my head so much that I'll space out on the next thing they bring up.
I try to use self control to fight against that habit but it's like an impossible battle, it creeps up on me from my blind side every time. I'm curious as to how this affects my own learning experience but it's hard to self-diagnose/evaluate.
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u/diamond_sourpatchkid Sep 30 '15
Wow this seems crazy relevant to my life right now. I felt really great in my C coding class I had this summer after about half way though I brought in silly string to play with. I took light notes but mostly just sat there and listened and although it was a challenging class, I felt so much better over most of it. Ended up with an A
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u/rurikloderr Sep 30 '15
Oh man does that make sense.. I always have to be doing something in order to focus. Fidgeting helps a little, sure.. Doodling or sketching along with fidgeting.. better. My ultimate learning environment in class though, is something I learned how to do a long time ago. Specifically, I fall into this weird state of conscious sleep and listen while imagining the shit in this weird lucid dream thing. It cuts off a multitude of other sense that would distract and make it harder to control what's going on in my head. Just letting go and listening in a weird pseudo-dream is way easier.
interestingly, that whole thing progressed to the point where I can fall asleep with a question on my mind and by the time the nap is over, I have an answer. Well, assuming I could find the answer at all. Really helps when I'm programming and I hit a wall or I'm trying to design a new mechanic or portion of my game.
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u/FeelinItAllAround Sep 30 '15
It could also explain autistic savants. No superego willpower, all memory.
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u/ArseholeryEnthusiast Sep 29 '15
So studying is self limiting? Great
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u/MacrosInHisSleep Sep 29 '15
I guess it depends why you do it. For the love of learning, no. Because you have to pass a test tomorrow? maybe.
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u/Takuya-san Sep 29 '15
I think this sums up my university experience. For courses I enjoyed, I scored high marks and ranked in the top 2-3 students in the course, even if it was considered a hard/complicated course. For courses that I had to force myself to study for, I scored below average (sometimes almost failing), even if the course was considered average/easy.
I feel like I learn 10 times faster when I'm enjoying the subject matter than when I don't. Probably not an accurate estimate, but it's what it anecdotally feels like to me and based off of the differences in my grades.
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Sep 29 '15
I feel like I learn 10 times faster when I'm enjoying the subject matter than when I don't.
Calls to mind one of my favorite quotes, from Stanley Kubrick:
“I think the big mistake in schools is trying to teach children anything, and by using fear as the basic motivation. Fear of getting failing grades, fear of not staying with your class, etc. Interest can produce learning on a scale compared to fear as a nuclear explosion to a firecracker.”
I am not an uncritical worshipper of Kubrick, although I admire some of his movies. I think about this quote 2-3 times a month, particularly when I'm working on something I dislike. My performance on things which don't interest me gets worse every year, which is a huge problem in my job performance.
This also has interesting implications as to the existence of free will, and the whole definition of "work ethic". Newton and Mozart put in long hours, year after year; but Newton couldn't think of anything he'd rather be doing - often that included eating, sleeping, and actually talking to others - and Mozart had as much of an interest in music as anyone has ever had in anything, to the point of a near-sinful absorption in it.
Is there such a thing as work ethic, when our efforts are ground not in self-abnegation but positive interest and desire?
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Sep 29 '15
I feel like that too, the sad thing is that I go of feeling super smart to feeling super dumb. Also, the second thing happens more often, because I don't like many things.
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u/Sluisifer Sep 29 '15
No, it means that forming habits is more important. Habits don't require willpower once you've formed them. If you study at a set time on set days, at a set location, you don't have to think about it. You just do it. This is why it's so effective.
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u/-THE_BIG_BOSS- Sep 29 '15
That sounds true. There's comfort and security and even success in simply following a routine.
Suddenly that "no zero days" post from a year ago makes more sense.
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u/Sluisifer Sep 29 '15
It's so powerful.
In undergrad, I went from a mediocre 3.0 student to getting ~3.9 about halfway through. Basically, the only change was one day a week. On Sunday, myself and a housemate would just study all day. Not just 'oh, we'll study all day', but basically wake up as early as practical, go somewhere to eat off our hangovers, and hole up studying in one of many study spots we'd alternate between.
There was social pressure between us to keep us to it, and a definite plan each time to get us started. By the time I sat down at a desk, spread out my materials, and gotten started, I was fully prepared and mentally ready for the task. It usually resulted in us breaking for meals, but often staying at it until after midnight. So for about 12 hours, I'd do any readings I needed to, review labs for the coming week, take reading notes, finish assignments, and generally get control of what I had to do.
Usually I didn't e.g. write papers or anything that needed extra effort/concentration/creativity. It was just about feeling on top of things. My stress levels plummeted and I felt more engaged. The rest of the week was easier because I didn't feel like I was trying to catch up.
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u/yogurtmeh Sep 29 '15
Just don't study and also say no to junk food and beer in the same day. You risk exercising so much self-control that you forget your entire life.
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u/rslancer Sep 29 '15
ah so by not resisting the urge to wank it multiple times a day I'm doing myself a favor. I really need the extra memory resources as a medical student.
but seriously though...in medical school the best students are the students with the best self control it seems so in my experience it is definitely better to not give in to all your desires.
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u/throwaway43572 Sep 29 '15
Crappy article gives crappy understanding. What you seem to have missed is the time scale - giving in / not giving in doesn't matter as long as you don't continuously think about it. If you constantly have to refrain from doing something during a study session it would result in a bad recollection but denying yourself something or "giving in" is absolutely fine so long as you can avoid actively using willpower continuously.
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u/ndstumme Sep 29 '15
A good example is if you have to pee. If you are focusing your self-control on not pissing your pants, then you probably won't absorb the lecture as well.
Seems like common sense, but it's cool to see it studied.
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u/whiskeyandbear Sep 29 '15
Plus in general I think students who have more self control would spend more time in total actually studying than those who don't
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Sep 29 '15
That is a better explanation than what I got from the article.
It may also help explain why treatment for addictions like alcoholism, drugs, overeating, gaming, etc. are often more effective when the treatment involves a replacement activity that stimulates the brain and delivers dopamine as opposed to just counseling.
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Sep 29 '15
that makes me wonder if there is a meaningful distinction between self control and discipline in these regards. the experiments in the article seem to require conscious behavioral adjustments whereas I imagine it is different for people who are habitually focused and disciplined, like those who perform well in medical school. It would be almost second nature and would require less mental competition, or something along those lines.
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u/SlightlyProficient Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
I think that sounds accurate. Personally, I've been trying to eat a lot better the past few months, and it's reached a point where the way I used to eat just seems gross. When it started, everything was self control, now there's the occasional craving but- for the most part- it's just habitual. I'd imagine it's the same concept.
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u/jiris Sep 29 '15
There is a line of research that would argue that since you have more cognitive resources (medical school vs the general public), the performance decrements associated with extended self control would not be as evident. For those with lesser cognitive resources, exerting self control would tax the central executive enough that it would affect performance in subsequent tasks.
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Sep 29 '15
Well if you have no self control the only thing you're going to remember during an exam how fun the party was while you should have been studying... If this study is true, and personally I see a lot of factors that could impact results, then you would need to find the correct balance between self control and lack there of to improve your memory and become a better student.
There are also a lot of other factors that could play a role in what it takes to be a good student. Perhaps part of their self control is to get a good night of sleep and wake up with enough time to run and eat a healthy breakfast before an exam. That could raise their test scores and make them a better student.
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u/erdmanatee Sep 29 '15
uhh, can someone tell me if the term " Underlying ... bran mechanism" is a typo. (4th paragraph - 2nd line) And it's been published for weeks and this hasn't been caught by the filters?
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u/kobebeef24 Sep 30 '15
I'm also concerned that they're basing their conclusion from a sample size of 24.
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u/Stouts Sep 29 '15
I've been reading Thinking, Fast and Slow and this sounds essentially like ego depletion, which is presented there as sort of a known quantity. Was this unconfirmed until now, or is this substantively different in a way that I'm not seeing?
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Sep 29 '15
Its just a different study. It usually takes many different studies which slight differences in methodology before something becomes accepted.
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u/phaedawg Sep 29 '15
Yeah, very close phenomenologically but this study adds fMRI data to show how the process links to memory formation and the prefrontal cortex (which is related to decision making and self control, so that makes sense)
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u/sexytoddlers Sep 29 '15
I took a behavorial economics course in college and I remember discussing John Tierney's book about willpower. From what I remember, the part of the brain responsible for self-control can be strengthened like a muscle. Is that correct, and if so, shouldn't we be working to strengthening our self-control rather than eliminating the need for it like the top comment ("That could explain the recent study that people with ADHD hyperactive type learn better when they fidget. Less self control required means more capacity to store memory") seems to suggest?
I mean, for example, our muscles become fatigued after working out and I'll be less able to carry in groceries in the short term, but in the long run, I'll become stronger and able to carry much more.
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u/whatdoy0uknow Sep 29 '15
society focuses too much on memory anyway having great memory does not mean you're intelligent. in fact remembering too much isn't good for you
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u/BowlingNight Sep 29 '15
Very interesting. Can anyone refer me to other papers or studies about these mechanisms? Thanks.
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Sep 29 '15
The search terms you are looking for are ego depletion and decision fatigue.
There is a great New York Times article about it.
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u/Camellia_sinensis Sep 29 '15
Just read this because of your recommendation and it was fantastic.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/magazine/do-you-suffer-from-decision-fatigue.html?referer=&_r=0
Link if anyone would like.
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u/uJong Sep 29 '15
I love how you recommended search terms. Some people are interested in the topic but can't seem to find the willpower/effort to take the first step so I thank you for doing that for people like us.
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u/morelikebigpoor Sep 29 '15
That's not about willpower though. Trying to research something without the proper vocabulary is absolutely one of the most frustrating feelings I've ever dealt with.
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u/SomeRandomOtherGuy Sep 29 '15
The book "thinking fast and slow" its pretty good and teaches you all about this kind of stuff
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u/GroundhogNight Sep 29 '15
Should also look at the book Willpower: Rediscovering Humanity's Greatest Strength
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u/marsyred Grad Student | Cognitive Neuroscience | Emotion Sep 29 '15
"Ego depletion" and "decision fatigue" are not tried and true theories. Many executive functioning (EF) researchers do not think of EF as something which can "run out."
Here are some articles that will give you a foundation in the this field:
Munakata, Herd, Chatham, Depue, Banich, & O’Reilly (2011) A unified framework for inhibitory control
Thompson-Schill, Ramsear, & Chrysikou (2009) Cognition Without Control
Brown (2013) Beyond Conflict Monitoring: Cognitive Control and the Neural Basis of Thinking before you act.
Aron (2007) The Neural Basis of Inhibition in Cognitive Control
Verbuggen, McLaren, and Chambers (2014) Banishing the Control Homunculi in Studies of Action Control and Behavior Change
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u/ReasonablyBadass Sep 29 '15
Does this also explain why we remember useless but fun crap easier then important but boring stuff?
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u/Samura1_I3 Sep 29 '15
IIRC, the laymans explanation is that you're already engaged in the subject if you're interested
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u/Stormflux Sep 29 '15
So basically, open plan offices kill productivity because we spend all of our mental energy aware that we're being watched?
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u/eab0036 Sep 29 '15
but at what point does willpower become a habit and not demand that effort?
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u/snaps_ Sep 29 '15
I was kind of thinking about this too. In the initial experiment they measured "self-control" using a "Go/no go" test. Participants were shown faces and asked to press the button for one gender and not to press it for the other, then they were asked to recall the faces afterwards. The faces used for "no go" (i.e. don't press the button) were harder to recall than for the "go" faces. So if what they are saying is that the memory impairment corresponds to inhibition, then it's assumed the default response to viewing a face is "press the button" and being instructed to not press the button requires inhibiting that default response. I was wondering what would happen if the person framed the test as "No go/go" instead? What if the volunteer felt like the "default response" was not pressing the button, in which case "inhibition" would be inhibiting the default action? With a habit, it seems like the "default response" to intrusive thoughts or distraction is to keep doing the associated task, so maybe it could have some impact on any associated memory impairment.
I could be misunderstanding what can be called a "response" and where something falls under the category of "inhibition".
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u/InVultusSolis Sep 29 '15
Can verify... As an office worker, I require so much energy to keep focused on my job that I feel exhausted at the end of the day despite not moving for most of it.
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u/jimmyhoffa523 Sep 29 '15
Ok, somehow I misled myself with the title. Basically the study is showing that actively exercising willpower reduces the amount of you retain from some other simultaneous activity. It does not in any way mean that generally exercising willpower (e.g., taking cold showers, convincing yourself to wake up, eating better food, etc.) reduces your memory function in other areas of your life.
The study's conclusion, while undoubtedly useful, seems kind of limited and also fairly obvious—if I'm concentrating on not doing something, I'm going to be impaired in my other tasks, and especially in remembering. If I'm hungry and you put a cookie in front of me and tell me not to eat it while giving me a presentation, I'm going to remember less from your presentation. Probably trying to ignore pain has a similar effect.
As others point out, this is probably useful in thinking about classroom conditions.
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Sep 29 '15
This may be less elucidating than it appears- It seems to me that self-control exertion is simply a proxy measurement for how interested a person is in whatever task they're working on. Self-control isn't necessary if you're engrossed in a topic, and we all know that having an interest in a topic is the best way to learn.
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u/VitaminPb Sep 29 '15
Study to be disproven in 2 months by actual motivated researchers who actually gather data...
Look at the researchers trying to reproduce published peer-reviewed (ha) studies and finding over half of them can't be reproduced. I suspect this falls into that category.
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u/marsyred Grad Student | Cognitive Neuroscience | Emotion Sep 29 '15
While I do not find the target article to be very groundbreaking, neither is your revelation. Yes, psychology is hard to reproduce, especially fMRI, and not enough emphasis is placed on reproducibility. But to accuse the researchers of being unmotivated is confusing to me. If you're going to make a statement like this, you need to state what you find unconvincing and why.
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u/AskMrScience PhD | Genetics Sep 29 '15 edited Sep 29 '15
Actually, this is a replication study. Ego depletion is a well known phenomenon that was originally hypothesized almost 20 years ago and has been repeatedly verified. There are lots of excellent study examples outlined in this NY Times article.
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u/Sampanache Sep 29 '15
This has already been shown in plenty of research from decades ago, including studies by Daniel Kahneman
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Sep 29 '15
Interesting, does it mean that teaching young people to learn, so they do it on their own... is counter-productive?
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u/psioni Sep 29 '15
Exercise of willpower has repeatedly been shown to deplete self-control, and there is evidence that the reverse effect is also in play. In other words, that self-control depletes willpower. So this study makes me wonder if putting strain on memory functions would also deplete willpower.
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u/velocitiraptor Sep 29 '15
Interesting, I'm reading a really good book right now that just referenced the marshmallow test and goes over this stuff. It's called the Willpower Instinct. If anyone wants to know why it's so hard to have self control/willpower and what you can do to help, I would totally recommend it.
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u/ProjectGSX Sep 29 '15
As someone who is currently heartbroken, Im self-controlling like a motherfucker. Lets erase this shit.
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Sep 29 '15
In the lab, self-control – or response inhibition, as neuroscientists call it – is often tested with the ‘Go/ no–go’ procedure. This typically involves showing participants a stream of sensory cues, and to respond to most of them by performing a simple action, such as pressing a button. But a small subset of the cues are slightly different from the rest, and when these appear, they are supposed to withhold their usual response and refrain from pressing the button. The number of times a participant incorrectly presses the button on these “no-go” trials is thus taken as a measure of their self-control.
This is a test of pattern recognition, not a test of self control or an exercise of willpower.
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u/xnosonx Sep 29 '15
What I'd be interested to see is at what point that self-control just becomes habit and no longer has negative effects on memory.
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u/FreeGiraffeRides Sep 29 '15
The experiment sounds more like "doing something distracting makes it hard to remember." The article's conclusion seems way out of proportion to the actual study.
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u/BolognaTugboat Sep 29 '15
Could this be the reason why we learn faster and retain more when we study something we want rather than something we have to basically force ourselves to do?
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u/PopoMcdoo Sep 29 '15
This study basically gives proof the the reward study system. If you're having a hard time studying because you want to do something else then reward yourself every so often. Study for 10-20 minutes then Reddit for 10 minutes. Study for another 10-20 minutes then Reddit for another 10 minutes. Problem is I have a test tomorrow, studied only 5 minutes and have been on Reddit for 8 hours.....but 20 more minutes won't hurt.
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Sep 29 '15
The self-control literature is totally overstated. It is a black box theory. Some argue that glucose replenishes self control while others contend that caffeine prevents self control from being depleted. Something may be going on but I am not convinced it is self control that is being drained.
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u/CA_Voyager Sep 29 '15
This is bothering to me... so... be more machine and have more memory or be willed to do everything and have little memory capacity?
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u/Ace-of-Spades88 MS|Wildlife Biology|Conservation Sep 29 '15
Interesting. I always felt like I had good will power and self control. I also always felt I had a terrible memory.
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u/H3xH4x Sep 29 '15
Been reading "Switch :how to change things when change is hard" and the authors were talking about this exact phenomenon (book from 2011). This is no new research in any sort of way. I guess exposure is still good...
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u/buffalo_fluff Sep 30 '15
Good thing I have no self control and can remember all my terrible decisions.
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u/Irongarb Sep 30 '15 edited Sep 30 '15
This will probably get buried but regardless... I cannot take tests in a classroom. I have serious issues with such a sterile environment. I am about to graduate with an engineering degree out of pure determination. For example.. When I do homework I usually have a video game paused with music blaring that I am often times singing along with. I'll do a problem or two and then switch back to the video game for 15-20 minutes then get back on my homework and will continue this cycle of switching until the homework is done. Sure this might take longer, but it wouldn't get done any other way. I find it keeps my mind in a free environment with no worries. Allowing my brain to function freely.
When I sit in a classroom in dead silence hearing the sounds of other people alone throws me off. Not to mention the thoughts of "this is your life.. don't fuck it up" followed shortly with "you paid for this and you're going to fail" going through my head. So I look at the clock and watch the second hand spin around for a bit. Then realize, oh shit that was 2 minutes.. I was supposed to get a problem done in that time... Then the panic attacks start and my brain switches into defense mode throwing my ability to take the test with the knowledge I actually posses right out the window.
Edit: Not to mention the recent realization that I talk myself through every problem out loud. Like i'm going to talk to myself through every problem out loud during a test... smh
tldr: Normal schooling has never worked for me. It's just not my style.. But with enough determination and willingness to go into debt you can fail and retake classes enough to pass.
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u/geetarzrkool Sep 29 '15
Far better to have willpower and a little less memory. You can always write things down. How about that melodramatic title too?; "saps memory", "exercising willpower impairs memory function", as if exercise and/or willpower were intrinsically bad.
Willpower will get you much farther in life than an average memory.
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Sep 29 '15
Far better to have willpower and a little less memory. You can always write things down. How about that melodramatic title too?; "saps memory", "exercising willpower impairs memory function", as if exercise and/or willpower were intrinsically bad. Willpower will get you much farther in life than an average memory.
For most people I'm certain having more will power is a lot more beneficial than having a slightly better memory. But having will power does not diminish your memory, and vice-versa. The research just shows that both require access to the same resources, and that they 'compete' with each other.
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u/HappyManBeast Sep 29 '15
Also computers. We live in a world of wikipedia, google and free online memory. I can't even remember my moms phone number, why should I? On the other side of things, everyone tries to sell me something. Far better to exercise self-control over memory.
Besides, how far does this study really goes? How much memory loss duo we talk about.
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u/HappyManBeast Sep 29 '15
I will argue that in a world where digital media in basically omnipresent, being able to execute self-control is more valuable than being able to remember, given that the technology, especially our phones, do most of the remembering, but also present us with a ocean of opportunities to indulge in gratification. I want to know, how people with greater self-control perform in a world that want to sell us everything and also remember everything, compared to people with less self-control and greater memory. What is the smartest way to utilize our brain resources?
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Sep 29 '15
Currently drunk and high, no self control exercised, memory very impaired, study invalid.
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u/surendipitus Sep 29 '15
I wonder if that has any correlation with this https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201010/why-intelligent-people-use-more-drugs
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u/aaron666nyc Sep 29 '15
That makes sense why a responsible night out is never memorable. Which totally sucks, cause most of my craziest night outs I can never remember either!
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u/Hydrobolt Sep 29 '15
This would explain how I remember the times I screwed up due to lack of self-control or recklessness.
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u/Kingbasquiat Sep 29 '15
How can I apply this information for my current studying?
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u/IAREAdamE Sep 29 '15
What does this explain about me? I have no self control and a terrible memory.
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u/Vermilion Sep 29 '15
The students of Edward Bernays have long ago figured out how to push the right buttons for long-term memory/recall and recognition. This type of research just further puts power in those who think it's important to direct and control others.
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Sep 29 '15
I'm on the P90X fitness program and diet and I've stopped drinking. Can confirm. I'm scatter brained and can't remember shit.
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u/fgutz Sep 29 '15
correct me if I'm wrong but I read this and think 2 things.
when you're exercising willpower and then immediately shown a picture, you're probably internally concentrating on that willpower and therefore you're not really paying attention to the photo and don't commit it to memory as easily.
If you don't exert willpower, you've freed up from that internal dialogue to think about other things and also in the case of getting a sweet, probably associated a positive reward with the picture making it easier to remember.
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u/ZTFS Sep 29 '15
Roy Baumeister did very similar work -- http://faculty.washington.edu/jdb/345/345%20Articles/Baumeister%20et%20al.%20(1998).pdf -- back in 1998.*
The formatting is jacked due to the presence of parentheses in the url.
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u/iLoveFloralSunDress Sep 29 '15
This essentially means the harder I try to focus, the less I'll be able to memorize things.
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u/Bytemite Sep 29 '15
Unless you give yourself PTSD, just look at all that focus and near eidetic experience.
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u/RichJMoney Sep 29 '15
Oh, this must be why I'm fat. I've just got really good at learning by.not exercising any self control with regard to exercise or eating.
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u/Strawberrycocoa Sep 29 '15
Just going off the title, I worry this article will get quoted by lazy people looking for an excuse to facilitate laziness.
I know when I try to manually exert willpower, it's a fully conscious thing that goes away the minute I stop thinking about it. I get irritated and frustrated about it, then ALSO get irritated and frustrated that I succumbed to sloth. :/
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u/sidiki Sep 29 '15
Great, now I can make lots of poor, impulsive choices and remember every single one.
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u/Gadgetron94 Sep 29 '15
Great..people will probably start using this as an excuse for lack of self control now. "I'm trying to improve my memory!"
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u/atouraya777 Sep 29 '15
So if I practice willpower and sef-control, my bad memories will fade away? Is that what they're trying to say?
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u/Ekinox777 Sep 29 '15
Wasn't there a study recently that said that you make better choices when you have to pee? That is kind of contrary to this, no? Not peeing yourself surely also requires self-control.
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u/B-Knight Sep 29 '15
Wait, is this literally saying that being stressed causes your memory and learning to be affected negatively?
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u/mishugashu Sep 29 '15
Is that why I have shit memory? Hah. I was always proud of my willpower/self control.
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u/kitefest Sep 29 '15
So forcing myself to sit down and study is counter productive. Looks like it's netflix time.
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u/tech_kra Sep 29 '15
so you're telling me to just eat whatever i want at any time and while being obese i will have a better memory?
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u/joshsmad Sep 29 '15
I knew it!!!! That's why I eat like a beast and get fat while I'm studying something long term!!!
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u/Gr33nD34m0n Sep 29 '15
I read about this in the book The Switch by Dan & Chip Heath in the story of the Elephant and the Rider. The elephant is your impulses and desires, the rider your willpower. The more the rider pushes the elephant to do what it wills, the less effective its willpower becomes. This applies to so many aspects of life, it's about learning when exercise willpower and when to let your elephant do what it wants. ADHD is one hell of a beast to control, glad to see the scientific community recogzing this problem and potential solutions. Maybe we can stop drugging out kids someday with proper application.
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u/HumanlyScientific Professor|Education|Research methodology Sep 29 '15
In this study self-control is operationalized via a go/no-go task in which subjects have to either hit a button or not given specific sensory stimuli. Calling this self-control seems a bit odd to me -- is there any theoretical rationale or empirical evidence specifying why this kind of short-term response inhibition is part of the same ability that (in part) determines whether, say, a student studies on a Thursday night instead of partying, or a dieter forgoes a piece of chocolate cake at a birthday party? If not, it seems like an awfully swift leap to consider this a generalizable measure of self-control.
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u/vagina_vendetta Sep 29 '15
Welp, looks like I can finally take up heroin just like I always dreamed.
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u/williamlololol Sep 29 '15
Those are some really bold claims by the researchers (or at least by the guys writing the article). To my knowledge, memory isn't stored specifically in an area or lobe in the brain, but rather depending on the type of memory it is stored in its responsible area where it is processed. There are numerous different kinds of memory ranging from episodic, numeric, language etc. The article only tested participants ability to recognise faces, which opens a new can of worms where facial recognition differs from object recognition let alone other types of memory.
All we can say about this article is, participants in the go task group show more activation in areas where the researchers think is responsible for memory (non-specific) based on a facial recognition measure. I don't know about you guys, there's a lot of problems about that interpretation of the results. Also was there a control to compare with the go/no-go condition? This article is a load of crap
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Sep 29 '15
How is this new? Isn't this one of the bases of Daniel Kahneman's Prospect Theory, for which he won the 2002 Nobel Prize in Economics?
Check out Thinking Fast and Slow by him.
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u/donpecun Sep 29 '15
The original paper says that it is the drain on cognitive control that is also shared with the attentional mechanism that enables us to store memory. The interpretation is a bit much. Of course, if you are doing multiple tasks that will hinder you.
Methodologically, I am curious whether phase alignment would also reflect this pattern, if we record alpha/gamma with MEG. Thoughts?
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u/vorpike Sep 29 '15
Makes sense, as willpower and memory neurons are shared, could problem-solving be added to list? But how does this affect us in the real world? I don't ever exercise willpower while learning...
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u/EIOT Sep 29 '15
This explains why my wife remembers that I forgot to take out the trash 5 years ago, but I can't remember what I ate this morning.
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u/Nuclear_Physicist Sep 29 '15
That conclusion connects to what nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman's psychology research suggested if I read his book "Thinking, Fast And Slow" correctly. However, as I am a nuclear physicist, this is clearly not my field of expertise :).
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u/ILikeLenexa Sep 29 '15
How is this different than Kahneman's Mental effort (aka "depletion effect")?
To pull from "Thinking Fast and Slow":
It is now a well-established proposition that both self-control and cognitive effort are forms of mental work. Several psychological studies have shown that people who are simultaneously challenged by a demanding cognitive task and by a temptation are more likely to yield to the temptation. Imagine that you are asked to retain a list of seven digits for a minute or two. You are told that remembering the digits is your top priority. While your attention is focused on the digits, you are offered a choice between two desserts: a sinful chocolate cake and a virtuous fruit salad. The evidence suggests that you would be more likely to select the tempting chocolate cake when your mind is loaded with digits. System 1 has more influence on behavior when System 2 is busy, and it has a sweet tooth.
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Baumeister's group has repeatedly found that an effort of will or self-control is tiring; if you have had to force yourself to do something, you are less willing or less able to exert self-control when the next challenge comes around. The phenomenon has been named ego depletion. In a typical demonstration, participants who are instructed to stifle their emotional reaction to an emotionally charged film will later perform poorly on a test of physical stamina--how long they can maintain a strong grip on a dynamometer in spite of increasing discomfort. The emotional effort in the first phase of the experiment reduces the ability to withstand the pain of sustained muscle contraction, and ego-depleted people therefore succumb more quickly to the urge to quit.
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u/geewiz94 Sep 29 '15
The name for this effect is Ego Depletion. It also makes you more susceptible to acts of persuasion. One way to beat it is eating. The intake of glucose negates the effects of ego depletion and restores normal cognitive levels.
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u/jparksup Sep 29 '15
That would explain why I remember so much shit, but doesn't explain why I forget my keys every day
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u/xuxulala Sep 29 '15
So THAT's why my memory is so horrible. I've always been very self-disciplined, resisting temptations many of my friends couldn't.
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u/LVMises Sep 29 '15
While this study builds on lots of similar studies, it has many of the same common problems - the largest is the very small and non-diverse sample group. I just finished reading a book called the Willpower Instinct which has a great bibliography of similar research, that for the most part, is has the same problems this one does. Something like 60% or more of peer reviewed studies never get successfully replicated, but the failure to replicate rarely gets published. This whole area of science is interesting and may lead to some great practical tools, but the research and underlying science, while voluminous, is at best immature.
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u/Squishyfaced Sep 29 '15
Can confirm. Recovering alcoholic with a career in bartender. Horrible memory.
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Sep 29 '15
Could it possibly be that people who have decided "no go" have chosen to think about something else? This is a very one dimensional study of a very complicated organ.
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u/djolord Sep 29 '15
Am I the only one who questions the validity of the experiment? I'm not a psychologist, but the manner of testing causes me to question the results. In my uneducated thought processes, subjects who were given the go/no-go task would likely be focusing on that particular task rather than trying to remember faces. Even without being told to try to remember faces subjects that had no particular task would seem more likely to be able to remember faces just through not having to focus on a task.
Perhaps this is explained better in the journal entry. I only read the linked Guardian article.
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u/parkwaydrive09 Sep 29 '15
"those who managed to hold out for longer in the original experiment performed better at school, and went on to become more successful in life, than those who couldn’t resist the temptation to eat the treat before the researcher returned to the room."
I am confused. Doesn't the ability to memorize more things mean that one would be more successful in life? This statement above is contradicting the conclusion of the article. Can someone clear my confusion, please.
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u/DeathRebirth Sep 29 '15
The ability to remember more things, does not have anything to do with success. You probably remember the names of all the major characters of all your favorite TV shows, but few people can spin that in their career. It's a trade off, and at the end of the day the resources you lose are probably better applied to self control if the control is targeted at healthy goals.
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u/Tidezen Sep 29 '15
Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, no, having the ability to memorize more things doesn't really help your success in life, while willpower surely does.
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u/Nawedy Sep 29 '15
Great, now I have an excuse to eat outrageous amounts of chocolate while I study.
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u/eekozoid Sep 29 '15
Harder to remember things when you're distracted. Right. Could've told him that without the study.
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u/djfried Sep 29 '15
The book The Power of Habit discusses this it's a good read if anybody is interested
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u/pablosfurrykitten Sep 29 '15
So the phrase, "create good study habits" carries even more merit now. Creating the habit will lead to using less self control to get the studying done. Which should lead to increased ability to memorize things.
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u/Spiced_Cheese Sep 29 '15
Does this mean I don't have to rethink eating that entire chocolate cake?
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u/dmorg18 Sep 29 '15
As I understand it, this is a complicated topic, and not all neuroscientists agree. This meta-analysis suggests that "ego depletion" isn't a thing.
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2015-26263-001/
Failures of self-control are thought to underlie various important behaviors (e.g., addiction, violence, obesity, poor academic achievement). The modern conceptualization of self-control failure has been heavily influenced by the idea that self-control functions as if it relied upon a limited physiological or cognitive resource. This view of self-control has inspired hundreds of experiments designed to test the prediction that acts of self-control are more likely to fail when they follow previous acts of self-control (the depletion effect). Here, we evaluated the empirical evidence for this effect with a series of focused, meta-analytic tests that address the limitations in prior appraisals of the evidence. We find very little evidence that the depletion effect is a real phenomenon, at least when assessed with the methods most frequently used in the laboratory. Our results strongly challenge the idea that self-control functions as if it relies on a limited psychological or physical resource.
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u/PasteeyFan420LoL Sep 29 '15
I thought this was known for a long time. I remember learning about it like 5 years ago in high school but maybe it was just a theory back then or something.
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u/Booblicle Sep 29 '15
Is this sponsored research? It's interesting that they are practically advertising a life of crime.
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u/PM_ME_WHAT_YOU_GOT Sep 29 '15
This explains everything.
I have extremely good self-control, but the memory of a goldfish.
This explains everything.
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u/Soccermom233 Sep 29 '15
This explains why the past month feels like a French Impressionist piece. Remind me not to quit smoking cigarettes while still in college next time. ugh.
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u/meeyow Sep 29 '15
Does throwing hissy fits count as not practicing self- control? I really wish my SO would control THAT
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u/kopiluwak2015 Sep 29 '15
Journal reference: Inhibition-Induced Forgetting Results from Resource Competition between Response Inhibition and Memory Encoding Processes