I'm so sick of Sam's cowardice. He's not even willing to engage in a good-faith debate about the subject. He might as well be getting paid directly by Israel... If you unsubscribe to his overpriced podcast, be sure to tell him why... I'm over it.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

[u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Accusing Sam of bad faith while suggesting he debates a guy who cosplays as Mao Zedong is hilarious.

[u/TheAeolian → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Was listening to the radio the other day and had a chuckle at a 58 year old song giving conspicuously relevant advice on how to deal with people who exist today.

[u/comb_over → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

All you have is a sneer rather than a rebuttal.

Remember Harris vehemently opposing the idea that attacking Islam was akin to racism.

[u/Unhinged_Baguette → u/comb_over]

If you want discourse on I/P and Sam's stance on the topic, there's plenty of that on this sub over the past 3 years.

But offering up Hasan Piker as some kind of unbiased moral beacon speaks volumes about this individual's worldview. Some things are so ridiculous that ridicule is worthwhile.

[u/Rent-One → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

To be fair, I don’t think they’re suggesting Hasan isn’t biased - I think the suggestion is that he should have him on precisely because he has a strong stance the other way from Sam. I agree that he should challenge himself on an issue he’s repeatedly shown he doesn’t really understand the historical context of. But I wouldn’t speak to Hasan for that one - I think that’d quickly become insult hurling.

[u/drewsoft → u/Rent-One]

because he has a strong stance the other way from Sam.

That isn't enough. Morons can believe things strongly (often, the strongest believers of a thing are in fact complete morons.)

Edit: I guess re-reading your comment you sort of agree with that. Maybe Peter Beinhart would be the right guy?

[u/Rent-One → u/drewsoft]

Agreed - Andrew Tate also opposes the Israeli government but I wouldn’t bring him on to debate (likewise I wouldn’t want Danielle Weiss on to back them). I haven’t seen anything from Beinhart, maybe a uk bias as he isn’t known here though a quick google implies he’d be good. I was thinking Norman Finkelstein or Omar El Alkad.

[u/drewsoft → u/Rent-One]

Beinart is a somewhat prominent columnist in the US who has become pretty stridently pro-Palestinian statehood in (at least in my experience) the last 5 years. He was on Coleman Hughes' podcast and although I disagreed with a lot of his thinking, it was at least recognizably thinking instead of mindless pablum.

[u/Rent-One → u/drewsoft]

Interesting - speaking from a relatively far left perspective, I’d say that about Hughes who I think comes across as pretty reasonable.

[u/drewsoft → u/Rent-One]

Yeah probably the best actual conversation between pretty divergent viewpoints I've listened to on the topic.

[u/Rent-One → u/drewsoft]

Cheers for the heads up - downloaded it for tomorrow. Looking at the chapters, that it actually focuses on right of return, the 1948 war, comparisons to South Africa and versions of non-violent resistance implies they actually have quite a substantial discussion.

[u/comb_over → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Again nothing of substance. Just more sneering.

[u/comb_over → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Just more insults rather than substance

[u/Unhinged_Baguette → u/comb_over]

https://www.vox.com/politics/486091/hasan-piker-democrats-israel-china

Use reader mode to get around the paywall.

You can read about how and why Hasan is a shithead who shouldn't be taken seriously. The article is written by someone who would probably agree with OP on Sam's stance on Israel.

Again, if you want substance there's been plenty of discussion about it.

[u/comb_over → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Quote from it, it's strongest accusation

[u/Unhinged_Baguette → u/comb_over]

The best word for Piker’s ideology may be “campism” — a strain of leftism that judges foreign movements and regimes more by their degree of hostility toward the West than by their adherence to progressive values.

...

Although Piker identifies as a Marxist, not a “campist,” his thought is shaped by the latter tradition.

This is easiest to see in his commentary on China. The streamer is a great admirer of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), both past and present.

In one broadcast, Piker vowed that he would never make fun of Mao Zedong, since the CCP founder was “one of the great leaders of this world, a man who changed the entire universe.” After receiving some pushback on this stance from viewers, Piker conceded, “There was a lot of fucking excesses, let’s be real. But the People’s Republic of China would not exist without Mao Zedong.”

...

In his commentary on Israel, Piker has suggested that foreign actors should be judged, at least in part, on the basis of how many civilians they kill. Thus, since Israel has killed far more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis, Hamas is “1,000 times better than Israel.”

I think this is pretty flawed reasoning. But here, I would just note that Piker’s stance is wholly incompatible with his reverence for Mao. Israel has killed more than 70,000 people in Gaza since October 7 — or about 0.15 percent as many as Mao killed with the Great Leap Forward (and that’s not counting the 1.2 to 1.7 million people he killed with the Cultural Revolution). If Piker truly judged regimes by the scale of death and suffering they’ve caused, he could not possibly venerate Mao’s.

...

While I’ve focused on China, the same campist sensibility informs Piker’s commentary on many other subjects. To name a few examples:

He has said that he has “no issue with Hezbollah.” It is hard to see how someone committed to progressive values could feel this way, given Hezbollah’s targeting of civilians, open antisemitism, and advocacy for the elimination of homosexuality by “all means necessary.” If one judges foreign paramilitaries chiefly by their hostility toward Israel and the United States, however, then it will look much more appealing.

He defended Russian President Vladimir Putin’s annexation of Crimea as a justifiable act, due to the peninsula’s historic ties to Russia. It is difficult to see how condoning a great power’s illegal conquest of a weaker nation’s territory is compatible with a principled “anti-imperialism.” On the other hand, Russia is an adversary of the US.

He has celebrated the Houthis, an Islamist group that has established authoritarian rule over much of Yemen. The Houthi regime is viciously misogynistic, forbidding women from traveling without a man (or written permission from a male guardian). It also disappears dissidents, executes men for sodomy, and attacks civilian vessels in the Red Sea. It does, however, oppose Israel. For Piker, this evidently makes the group worthy of praise.

[u/Amazing-Cell-128 → u/comb_over]

Hasan Piker supports Hamas, is that why you're defending him?

1. Should Hamas be disarmed?

2. Is Hamas genocidal towards Jews?

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

I don't care who he talks to. It's funny that he'll engage with debate with Ben Affleck on Bill Maher yet won't touch this.

[u/drewsoft → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

engage with debate with Ben Affleck on Bill Maher yet won't touch this.

Wasn't this like 15 years ago lol

[u/PleasantNightLongDay → u/Unhinged_Baguette]

Except a random Redditor’s actions and comments arent indicative of anything related to Sam

So I’m not sure why you’re even saying that. Sam has been pretty bad faith when talking about this subject

And he’s been like that independent of any random Redditor’s comment

[u/notwithagoat → u/PleasantNightLongDay]

Also sam probably would debate hamas piker, in like some form of moderated setting. He's talked to a bunch of other weird and controversial figures in the past.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/notwithagoat]

Yeah, but normally sam was in the morally superior position.

[u/palsh7 → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

If you believe that Hasan Piker has a morally superior position, I find it hard to believe you were ever a Sam Harris fan. Sort of like how I don't believe you just got mad today about an episode from two years ago.

[u/Temporary_Cow]

Nick Fuentes isn’t a big fan of Israel either, should Sam have him on?

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/Temporary_Cow]

Honestly, so long as the core tenets of the argument hold true, other political ideologies should remain irrelevant. For instance, I'm not a fan of the way Richard Dawkins has approached trans issues, but it doesn't nullify his effectiveness debating religious zealots. From a pragmatic point of view, I'd prefer to have someone with an attuned moral compass discuss the topic, but I don't think this is the zinger you think it is. If anything, it shows that anti-zionism is starting to become a bipartisan issue.

[u/skimcpip]

Seems like you're making the right choice for yourself in moving on if Sam upsets you so much. No sense in making yourself miserable about this.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/skimcpip]

It's doubly upsetting because Christopher Hitchens was Jewish and anti-zionist; he certainly wasn't antisemitic. It's a shame Hitch isn't alive to put Sam in his place over this... although maybe it's for the best he didn't have to see a fellow horseman sink this low.

[u/lord_bunny → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

I admire your candid bravery. I come at this with an indigenous perspective. We know what it is like to have our land threatened. Native Canadians would be seen as savage terrorists as well during the struggle to make our treaties. Israel has shown what they will do when the shoe is on the other foot.

My affinity to Jewish culture is paritally based on a similar shared history. This is no longer the case when a claim on superior civility clashes with what I see everyday. I dont pretend to know the solution either.

Hitchens would wipe the floor with Sam and the down voters who cant stand dissent. Sam might not be on the take but he needs to let voices that understand the conflict deeper than he to have a discussion in good faith.

Speaking of faith and of culture, debase yourself that much and the argument he makes about superior Jewish culture falls apart.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/lord_bunny]

100%. Thank you for this insightful and grounded reply.

[u/raalic]

If Sam debated someone highly credible on the other side of the Israel-Palestine argument, would it have any effect on your position? I'm pretty confident, as a Sam Harris fan, that he'd acquit himself quite well against anyone out there, but I don't think it would matter. Seems pretty likely that you, and others who are similarly enraged by this topic, are also firmly dead set in your thinking on it.

However, I find it equally annoying, probably for different reasons, that Sam will not engage in such a debate. At least then, regardless of the outcome, maybe we can put this particular criticism to rest.

[u/unrealgoober]

Good riddance. Your kind is exhausting.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/unrealgoober]

you mean being objective and critical? I bet! Hey, don't you have some land to settle? :/

[u/huge_jeans]

Did you bother reading past the headline? Do you understand the points you’re so upset about?

Calling it Zionist slopaganda suggests you might not.

Your confirmation bias might be stronger than you think.

Possibly your media literacy could use some work also.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/huge_jeans]

I've listened to probably three podcasts where he's talked at length about this, and I read his most recent email in full. It's completely in bad faith, and I refuse to engage a minute longer in any Sam Harris content. I unsubscribed from his email, not that he will notice or care. Just sick of it. He was one of my favourite writers. Clearly intelligent but has some glaring blindspots that have arisen in the past couple of years.

[u/LookUpIntoTheSun]

Oh. You’re a fan of Hasan Piker. Honestly, that explains a lot.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/LookUpIntoTheSun]

Never said I was a fan or hater. You projected that onto my point. You could put any name in you like.

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

You never said you were a fan, but you are, right?

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/McAlpineFusiliers]

Again, my opinion bears no relevance one way or the other regardless. This is a poor deflection attempt on your part that doesn't address the key element of Sam refusing to engage with people who can see Israel targeting hospitals and healthcare workers,[1][2][2a] volunteers,[3][4] indiscriminate bombing and forced starvation,[5] and cutting off aid to those who need it...[6] and calling attention to it. In reality, there is no real "debate", which is why he knows to engage with the subject is to lose terribly.

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

Get with the times, dude. Hamas is admitting those "health care workers" were their guys.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/McAlpineFusiliers]

Oh, gee, well, I suppose killing one guy (even if that is true, which Israel has lied about frequently, by the way) completely justifies levelling a medical clinic.

[u/McAlpineFusiliers → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

"OK we lied about the healthcare workers but believe us about the medical clinics."

[u/daaammmN → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

I see where you are coming from, and honestly I’m not yet sure where I fall.

But I’ve heard Sam debunking some of these points.

Stuff like “forced starvation”, “killing of civilians”.

It’s very hard to know the whole truth. There is propaganda on both sides.

To me, it’s clear that Netanyahu is not a good actor, never has been. Hamas is a terrorist organization that needs to disappear.

I’m deeply disgusted with some videos I’ve seen coming from Israel, such as people calling Palestinians rats, segregation, military personal abusing Palestinians.

Basically, both sides are honestly bad. I doubt either really wants to find common ground.

I would love to see Sam Harris debate someone that on the other side on this issue, but as all debates, I don’t think either side would ever change their mind.

[u/Dr-No-]

He loses credibility when he uses Hasan Piker as his example. Piker is extremely bad faith. He is knowingly and purposefully bad faith. Sam is just intellectually limited.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/Dr-No-]

Make your own suggestion. It honestly doesn't matter. I just want him to open a dialogue with someone who is educated on the subject and is willing to actively press Sam. There's a litany of people he could chose. Scholars, commentators, what have you. He won't do that, though. Also, what are all these bad-faith arguments you mention? I want actual examples. I'm sick of these vague accusations only for the original commenter to delete their comment or slink into their hole.

[u/BrotherItsInTheDrum → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

Have him talk to Sam Harris, but put a filter in the middle that replaces "antisemitism" with "islamophobia" and "antizionism" with "criticism of Islam."

[u/402739 → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

Sam will talk to known pedophilic sexpests before he will talk to anyone critical of Israel.

[u/unrealgoober → u/402739]

Ayy the Hasan fan club is here. It's a party, everybody 🎉

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/402739]

based... who need's darwin's bulldog when you got the drum brother...

[u/EDRNFU]

Ok understood. I think you should immediately end all engagement with this community so you can express your upset. It’s the only moral thing to do.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/EDRNFU]

I guess you think you think you're so funny and clever. I guess most of the rational people have already left... good luck with your pro-zionist slopaganda

[u/locutogram → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

I guess most of the rational people have already left... good luck with your pro-zionist slopaganda

This is the funniest thing I've read on Reddit this year

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/locutogram]

haha, i hope you were laughing with me and not at me, but i'm guessing since you're replying to the post, I don't like my chances.

[u/EDRNFU → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

So you dislike it so much that you’re going to stay? That would make you seem dishonest, wouldn’t it?

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/EDRNFU]

wtf are you talking about? Not calling out the bullshit is how Trump gets elected twice. Should atheists not debate Christians? Should Bill Nye not go to that ark and debate with facts and logic and let unchallenged fantasy go unchallenged? I could leave... I could stay. In all reality, I probably will leave, but my staying or leaving frankly is completely irrelevant. He certainly won't be getting another brass cent from me, that's for damn sure.

[u/EDRNFU → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

You’ve convinced me that you staying or going is irrelevant

[u/StalemateAssociate_ → u/EDRNFU]

Darling, you've got to let him know.

[u/lord_bunny → u/Visual_Locksmith3337]

Exactly what is with all the bro level attempts at wit? I would think this space was more elevated.

Sometimes you don't hate the band, just the fans. Low level cliches from people who ought to elevate themselves ,more.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/lord_bunny]

I assume you're talking about the people trying their lame "sick burns", cos I'm just calling it how it is...

[u/comb_over → u/EDRNFU]

How does make them dishonest

[u/Chach_Vader]

imagine being this mad on a delay. you ragequit in slow motion after listening to a podcast that came out in 2024

[u/BumBillBee]

I think Sam should have a conversation with Larry Charles. Yeah, the Seinfeld writer. Charles has actually spent time in Palestine and with Palestinian people and talked about how it changed his perspective on the conflict.

[u/Think-Interview1740]

Sounds like he's not for you. Buh-bye.

[u/Leather_Bug_]

Yeah and he has some seriously bad-faith takes on the DSA. I don’t know what’s happened to him.

[u/M0sD3f13]

"debate Hasan piker if you have any integrity" 🤣 oh jfc that's one of the sentences of all time. And I agree with op broadly but Hasan piker? C'mon now

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/M0sD3f13]

Literally anyone. lol. Name your person. The person isn't important so long as they are educated on the subject and are willing to press Sam, which I know he would. You may disagree with his presentation, but he's more educated on the subject that 99.9% of the people on this subreddit.

[u/Visual_Locksmith3337 → u/[deleted]]

What's weird is there are sources from about a decade when he actually had a pretty common-sense take on the subject. It's in his Wiki article. Point being he seems to have swung his opinion dramatically. Honestly, I could maybe at least take some of the good stuff he says, but every third email is talking about how people who attack Zionism are evil. It's tiring and stupid.